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The Ich

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  1. Of course you can play with other (random) people (if you are online of course). The system will be similar to DD1's. You have a central server where a player can open a game, it will be registered on the server and displayed to everyone else. Other players can check the list of open games and join the hosted games. The actualy network traffic of the game session will be peer to peer, which means it will be routed directly between the players and not over the central server. The server is just there to establish the inital connection.
  2. Hm... That is a pretty universal and superficial post. I would have loved to hear some actual answer to the loot topic, since you already mentioned it as something that is concerning a lot of players here at the moment. Which kind of stat and loot system are you going to use for DD:A? DD1's system with simple random numbers for every stat or DD2's system, where the item power level completely determines the main stats. Furthermore since the trailer showed the old defenses back in action, are we going to see a comeback of tower range and tower attack rate? What exactly do you mean when you are talking about "targeting loot" in point 1 and 2? Do you mean a certain pet at wave 25 of survival (as an example) or do you mean an item with specific stats? The later would be a terrible idea. I hope you mean the specific loot like weapons and pets, but this contradicts with point 2, because you would be forced to play a particular map, unless you change that system, which is again not a good idea.. Point 3 and 4 sound great when you read it, it is a nice combination of words for sure, but what does it actually mean? Special weapons and pets similar to DD1 or special stats / effects from DD2? Again the later would be terrible. Somehow this whole posts reminds me too much about the negative things about DD:E (targeting loot) and DD2 (too special loot)... Please keep it simple, DD1's stat and item generation system was on point. Sure, some different kind of weapons and pets are ok, but please keep the idea of simple base stats. I do not want to see an item that turns my fire-tower into an ice-tower that freezes the enemies in place... Stuff like this has the potential to completely break the balance of the game way too quickly.
  3. This topic is also on my mind and concerns me. The loot system is an essential core element of the game. Farming and trading are important long-term motivation factors. The follwoing was posted by @Elandrian (Chromatic Games): I wondered how they would implement the "offline" functionality, because I assumed you would normally play on a server with a validated game-state. One "solution" could have been, that the offline mode simply does not count - similar to ranked vs open of DD1. But reading this post leaves me shocked, because this basically means everything (game calculations and hence loot) will be client-side and therefor "offline". This of course opens the door for hacking and any kind of manipulations - which ruined the fun of DD1 in the end for me, because it made all the farming pretty much pointless, when you see other people running around with hacked gear. Sure, there were some bans, if people were so stupid to create items in a way, they would never roll in the game (with too high stats). And sure, you could argue that you could just focus on playing the game on your own or with a closed group of friends. But in the end I want to have some motivation to play the game, farm end-game maps, get better gear. Trading is one very important and fun aspect for me and maybe also trying to score high on the leaderboards. But all of this is pointless, if there are cheaters around. The loot system of DD1 was simply amazing and the core element which made players play and love this game so much. Many people - including myself - were hyped about DD:E with the promise to be a DD1 with server-side calculations. I am completely aware of the immense costs of such a server enviroment. And no surprises, it did not take too long before they shut down the servers of DD:E. So going for a p2p (peer to peer) aproach again is a reasonable decision - especially if you consider how much is going on in the game (hundred of mobs, movements, positions, shots, damage calcluations) per second but I had hoped that at least some general things would be calculated server-side. For example your characters with the gear/loot. But if this is not even the case, we won't even have a proper foundation for any kind of secure trading. Quite the opposite, I already see stuff like item duping becoming a problem again. The developers themself stated that DD:A will be an intermediate product for DD3. So it's unrealistic to expect them to invest too many ressources on this problem. I posted this on another thread already, but it fits here as well: So I would love to hear an offical statement about this (and please a bit more than the "yes, there will be anti-cheat measures). And keep in mind, security by obscurity is no real security.
  4. Now we are actually going off-topic here, but I would still like to comment on your question: There are some simple ways to only have items with legit stats in your economy, if you store the account data including items on a server. Remember we cannot simply ask the server to generate items, because we also want to play offline. Instead we could use some kind of seed - given from the server in advance - to generate items from. Once you synchronize with the server, the server can verify whether the (new) items are a valid outcome/derivation of the generation process, given the previously stored seed. So you won't have any items with arbitrary stats in your system. There are two problems with this: (1) You have no control over the amount of items an attacker is generating and (2) also not on which level/difficulty he is actually playing. The attacker could pretend to have farmed the hardest possible map and actually run Deeper Well on easy. Or he could simply call the "generateNextItem" function as often as he wants. We can somehow counteract the amount of generated items by simply limiting the number of items, which can be generated from a particular seed. An attacker would make himself very suspicious, if he would use up too many seeds too quickly to increase his chances of generating a good item. But how do you determine this limit? It would have to be pretty loose, because you do not want to accidently ban someone who is actually just playing a lot. And the second problem remains. You have no idea, if the attacker is actually playing that map or not. In fact you do not even know, if he is actually playing the game at all or if he is running some code (just calling the "generateNextItem" function). This is just a very basic and simple example. But it shows that you can already do a lot with some simple techniques. It would counter the most trivival attacks like changing values in memory. It would also prevent any kind of arbitrary item generation and duping of items and you could easily detect the origin (player) of an item without much overhead for the server - as long as the verification process is efficient. About lag: The general behaviour will be the same as DD1, which also used a p2p approach. Of course Chromatic Games can optimize the network-code and so on, but in the end the lag will be determined by the quality of the host's connection and performance. It will scale and be ultimately limited by the amount of actions/s.
  5. Many people are suggesting some kind of market place / auction house, where you can put up your items for sale or buy items. That itself would be a wonderful feature, which would make trading so much easier (compared to DD1) and as I said before it would also balance out the grinding aspects a bit for those, who do not want to / cannot play too much, because after a while this market would become inflated (in a positive way); items of a certain quality (which is not the absolut best) would become cheaper and more frequent over time. Of course you would trade items with the main ingame currency (gold, credits, mana... whatever it will be called) and items should have level-requirements for obvious reasons. I am not sure what to think about an option with real money, because on the one side it will happen anyway and it might be better to establish a controlled enviroment, where the game developers might even get a small share from it, than to leave it completely uncontrolled. As you said it would also be another incentive to play the game for the "hardcore" players. But on the other side it reminds people of microtransactions and of course it should never be necessary to actually progress through the normal game / campaign anyway. So such a feature such only become available, once you reach the end-game. I just noticed this post from Elandrian (Chromatic Games): I wondered how they would implement the "offline" functionality, because I assumed you would normally play on a server with a validated game-state. One "solution" could have been, that the offline mode simply does not count - similar to ranked vs open of DD1. But reading this post leaves me shocked, because this means basically everything (game calculations and therefor loot) will be client-side and therefor "offline". This of course opens the door for hacking and any kind of manipulations - which ruined the fun of DD1 in the end for me, because it made all the farming pretty much pointless, when you see other people running around with hacked gear. Sure, there were some bans, if people were so stupid to create items in a way, they would never roll in the game (with too high stats). And sure, you could argue that you could just focus on playing the game on your own or with a closed group of friends. But in the end I want to have some motivation to play the game, farm end-game maps, get better gear. Trading is one very important and fun aspect for me and maybe also trying to score high on the leaderboards. But all of this is pointless, if there are cheaters around. I don't think this is particularly off-topic but rather related. Because the loot system of DD1 was simply amazing and the core element which made players play and love this game so much. Many people - including myself - were hyped about DD:E with the promise to be a DD1 with server-side calculations. I am completely aware of the immense costs of such a server enviroment. And no surprises, it did not take too long before they shut down the servers of DD:E. So going for a p2p (peer to peer) aproach again is a reasonable decision - especially if you consider how much is going on in the game (hundred of mobs, movements, positions, shots, damage calcluations) per second but I had hoped that at least some general things would be done server-side. Like your characters with the gear/loot. But if this is not even the case, trading is not save as well. So there is no point here to even discuss any form of "real money trading", because we won't even have the foundation for any kind of secure trading. Quite the opposite, I already see stuff like item duping becoming a problem again. Well, there are ways to make things as hard as possible. I could think of an easy way to guarantee legit generated loot only at least (so no arbitrary or even too high stats). But we have to keep in mind that Chromatic Games is a rather small company. The developers themself stated that DD:A will be an intermediate product for DD3. So it's unrealistic to expect them to invest too many ressources on this problem.
  6. What kind of RNG are we talking about exactly? Because I don't know much about the recent stuff of DD2 and I have the feeling you are talking about some specific things there. DD1's loot and stat system had RNG as well, but there was always a solid progression up to a point of maybe 4-5k stats. From there on you had to farm a lot to get any noticeable improvements, that's true, but on the other side you did not really need higher stats for almost every content and due to the diminishing returns and the way the stats scale the potential or difference is not so big anyway. So I don't know where you take these insane numbers of hours for a specific item, but that doesn't sound right of course. A full survival run should always result in a few rare loot drops. I think you also missunderstood me a bit, when we are talking about at which point in time (or progression state) something should be hard and easy or even afk-farmable. Because I more or less agree with you. The endgame should be really hard. But it should also offer potential super rare loot - something to strive for - that will make it slightly easier but not necessarely trival. My examples of progression which end up in afk-farm are mostly taken from DD1. Balancing is for sure not any easy thing. I just hope they do not just add some hard counters to certain defenses again. For example the sharks of DD1 made walls useless and forced you to use "minion walls", which couldn't be pushed away - making the sharks useless in return. And the copters basically forced you to use reflection walls everywhere. I mean you could argue, that this is just an adaptation to a specific enemy, but it was pretty dominant and always affected the whole map (every lane). Having to build defense B instead of A, because A simple doesn't work anymore is also not really what I would call "challenge". I liked the spiders and even djins more, because they focused every kind of defense and you just had to deal with them fast.
  7. Yes, I want the item dependency of DD1, because the loot was one of the best aspects of this game and made me play it thousends of hours. Well, wasn't it you who started calling RNG "stupid" and just a case of "luck" and some other stuff about "elite players"? Anyway I never said, that the game should be trivial - quite the opposite, because previous DD games were way too easy overall and I do not even want to mention DD:E. I wrote somewhere else, that I would even recommend the developers to make the game harder first. Better too hard than too easy, because they can still nerf the content afterwards but if it's too easy, the easily accessible loot is already farmed and you would only affect new players. But the loot aspect made DD1 so great. There is a huge stats-range, starting from a point where you can barely beat a map with active gameplay and a strategically defense-layout and the more you progress, the easier it gets. Until you eventually reach a point, where you can afk-farm that particular map. Reaching this point should not be trivial and the incentive to farming (talking about endgame content/maps here).
  8. Then you should stick with DD2, where the item power level determines the strength and stats of it. Absolutely boring. DPS heroes should be there to support the defenses, supplement the weaker parts of it and focus specific targets (bosses). But if you focus too much on the hero aspect, you ruin the experience for solo and duo players, because you cannot be everywhere at the same time. And in the end it is a "tower defense" game - another thing that drove me off DD2, which focused too much on DPS chars. Also RNG has nothing to do with luck but with statistics. A "Random Number Generator" works within pre-defined boundaries and on average everyone will get equal results. So I am not sure, why you are trying to reduce the "elite players" like this - DD games were never really challenging skill-wise anyway.
  9. About map specific loot: I think it's a good idea in general but it should not be over-done. A player should not feel forced to play a specific map too much, just because of the loot there. You should always have the option to choose between a few maps, which are more or less equally in terms of loot and difficulty. On the other side there will always be a "best to farm map" and map specifc loot might give you an incentive to play a different map. I absolutely agree with the rest. For those, who do not want to play too much, a beatable story-driven campaign should be sufficient. But for many dedicated players here a DD game is a long-term game, where you constantly strive towards better gear. This is what keeps the players motivated. Prevent item manipulation / hacking and add a way to make trading easily accessible with a kind of market place / auction house and you would boost this even more. This would also make the grind a bit less frustrating for some, because after a while they can also buy some better gear on the market, where you would see a normal inflation of gear quality and prices over time (of course there should be level caps on the gear, to prevent a new player from simply buying stuff that is not meant for their progression state). And in the end it does not really matter if your stats are a bit higher or lower. Higher stats usually make things just easier up to a point, where you can afk-farm a certain map. But the map is playable and beatable way before.
  10. When it comes to the nightmare and potentially a massacre difficulty and balancing in general I would really advise the developers to make things really hard first to prevent another DD:E. Better even a bit too hard than too easy, because you can still nerf the difficulty with patches afterwards, but if it's the other way around, people will already have farmed tons of easily accessible gear, which makes any later adjustment just harder for the new(er) players. I really loved DD1 when nightmare first came out. You run against a hard wall with "insane" gear. Of course it was just a matter of acquiring a few transcendent pieces and adjusting the playstyle a bit - but you actually had to carefully farm and every new piece of equipment was an improvement - the progression felt so good. Yeah, I agree. There is no point to have waves with 4-5k enemies. If you can beat 500-1000 enemies you most likely can withstand more of the same. The map design also plays an important role, because it did matter a lot, if you killed the enemies close to their spawn or let them have to walk over a long distance, because there was a cap. Also as far as I remember some enemies always spawned with a hardcoded timer, so you literally had to wait for a new spawn within a wave without any enemies around, if you killed the previous "sub-wave" too fast.
  11. Yeah sure, memory manipulations have been the most common types of "hacks", because they are easy to do and already enough to achieve the goal. No need for more complex stuff. But if you want to make a working Anti-Cheat system you have to consider even the most sophisticated attacker.
  12. It sounds nice an easy when you say it like this, but pratical solutions are much more complicated. With simple checks you are just making the most trivial attacks harder. But you have to assume that... - the attacker is fully capable of controlling the source code (reading, modifying, deleting) - can not only modify run-time values but also do code injections So hidden values are never hidden. You could use a hash-value of the item with it's attributes to ensure integrity, but the attacker can also calculate this value. Send a notification - nope, won't happen, because the attacker can just remove this part of the code or filter outgoing network traffic. So you do need a third party process that ensures the integrity of your program and also memory. At least the loot generation should be made safe, because the hacked gear was one of the biggest issues in DD1 and extremely frustrating for players that grinded a lot and wanted to trade. Of course the most easiest and safe solution would be to make all the calculation server-sided. But this costs a lot of performance and won't support local/offline gameplay. You could use some kind of block-chain approach to create a verifiable chain of legit items. The client gets a seed s and the item and all it's attributes are derived from this seed. The next item uses Hash(s) as the next seed. The problem is the performance here (not such a big deal, because it is local - there are certain crypto currency which are extremely intensive to calculate but the proof is relatively easy to check -> zero cash). When you start a game, you would have to tell the server "I am playing map x with difficulty y now" and the server would send you a starting seed then and save the info. Afterwards you would send the server a list of the items you picked up and the server can check, if these items are a valid part of the chain and only if this is true, they will be added to the server-side stored account data. This way you would at least guarantee loot with legit stats only. But then again you could have never actually played this particular map. And also you have no control over the amount of generated items (someone could still just instantly kill all enemies with hacks or simply call the "generateItem" function as often as he wants). You would somehow have to proof, that you played this game legitimately... which would require a system like this for everything that is calculated in the game. You could add some artifically limitation to fix the amount of drops to a certain number per game (actually doable, because you know the number of enemies on map x with setting y) and check the completion time... But we assumed that the attacker has full control, so he can simply pretend to have just played the hardest map, killed every enemies and got the correct amount of loot in a reasonable time and do this 24/7 - there is no way to tell, if he actually played the game or just run the code. Well to sum this up. No, adding simple checks won't solve this issue, if you do not use further techniques to ensure the integrity of the program and it's runtime data. But on the other side, if you could ensure these, you could make a system that is pretty safe and I really hope that the developers will put some effort into this.
  13. Most important for me is the loot system. DD1 was so close to perfect in this regard, they should use it as a base without changing much. - server-sided loot to prevent manipulation - being able to trade loot globally (some kind of ingame market place) - therefor we need a sensible, meaningful and not inflated currency that scales with grinding (no extreme jumps when going to a higher difficulty) - being able to move while casting and repairing (compared to DD1) - a better User Interface for the items in general. The custom folder structure system of DD1 was still the best but that could be a lot better. Most important are search and filter functions - for example display all chest plates of type x with tDMG > 300 and tAttackSpeed > 250 or something like this. - configurable auto loot at the end of a successful run - loot despawning should remove the lowest quality first - I know they added this at some point by I also remember a time, where that nice super rare item could literally despawn before it reached the ground - and speaking of the ground - items should not be able to fall into the void / out of the map (if they do, they should just reappear at the crystal for example) - a way to save and share defense layouts -> at the start of a survival run you can "load" this setup, so you do not have to build it every time. I know this idea is not really new and some people did not like it in the past, but in the end you are building more or less the same setup over and over again anyway and if you are just farming a certain map it would make it much easier. Such a feature would also be a great way to export and share your layouts with other players. - towers - the trailer showed the old ones from DD1 and that's really good. I really like them and also the way the stats are scaling. It was so satisfying to see your traps and auras grow up in size and strength in DD1 or your little magic tower reaching ridiculous attack speeds. I hope they will keep this and if this causes trouble for the server, they could maybe add a "prestige" feature for your towers which halves the attack speed but increases the damage by 105-110% (to compensate for more overkill-damage). This could also be a way to make traps and auras smaller again - a more dense aura is stronger. - the summoner was quite useful for semi-afk farming runs because of the top-down view. You could upgrade and repair globally without actually going there and you could also check the loot everywhere with this view. Sure the summoner was never really used as a DPS char, but I think he fulfills his role as a supporter for the defenses pretty well - he can also move through enemies and so on - I never really understood this feature. I mean yeah, it's a kind of ready check but in the end it was more often annoying and time-costing then useful. If they keep this system they should at least at an option for the host to "force" a start and also to abort it during the inital building phase.
  14. A game like Dungeon Defenders stays and falls with the loot system and it was just too easy to get decent loot in DDE, which speeded up the progress and you ended up with super high stats without much grind, making the whole content trivial. DDE was so promising, because all they had to do was to literally copy DD1 and add the QoL features. And there were quite a few nice little things. For example being able to move while repairing or casting a building. There was also something that made upgrading items easier I think. And in general a server-sided loot system to prevent any kind of manipulation was a major improvement over DD1. Of course the server should have kept up with this, because DDE was lagging a lot and not seldom you got kicked out of your own game. And there was this stupid 30 min. idle timer. EDIT: Oh and I just remembered the most broken thing. You could not only accquire high(er) stats without much effort, but some tower buildings - especially the traps and auras - scaled differently compared to DD1 and with differently I mean much stronger. One aura-stack (one of every kind) was so powerful (and big), that you could beat a whole lane or even multiple overlapping lanes with it, because the enrage aura made the enemies fight each other, so they would just group up at their spawn point without ever leaving it).
  15. It doesn't really matter if it's called Mana, credits, gold (coins) or whatever. But I prefer to have one simple currency for most of the things. This currency should also not be inflated too much by jumping to a higher difficulty but be more of a grind thing, so you can actually use it as a currency for trading. There was a reason, why Companion Cubes were used over Mana in DD1. It would also be nice if they would just scale down the numbers a bit. A million should already be a lot, let alone a billion. DD1 was running in the 2^32 limitation, which is just unneccesary.
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