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The Ich

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The Ich last won the day on July 29 2020

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  1. It is kinda interesting, how the opinions on this topic already differ after a few posts. The first 2 posts here are talking about the grind being "too tedious", "too long", so basically too much. Others find the content/progression to easy/fast. It is impossible to make everyone happy in this regard, because some like the grind much more than others do. In my opinion, the Massacre Survival progression was really good this time. It took me a good while (and over 20 campaign summit runs to get a single (!) Speedy Gemstone to even get started...) to reach a state, where I can beat Glitter afk solo starting at wave 23. I have to say, I slowed myself down on purpose; I enjoyed the content this time. I did not compensate the lack of my build quality or stats by using massive amounts of hero DPS (you could also say I mainly used an (afk-)towerboosting monk... ;) ). I could have rushed it much more, but I set myself the rule to always complete (or reach the boss stage of) a map solo first, before playing it in public groups. I overfarmed the ealier maps a bit before progressing and I also upgraded my builder gear very late (starting at act 3). Sure, I could have rushed the content and blazed through it much faster, I guess. But that would not have been as much fun then. In general, it also makes a big differences if you play this game solo, duo or in a full group of 4 players. Before they adjusted the spawn-rates of special mobs for 1, 2 and 3 players with the latest hotfix, I would definitely say that playing the game in a group of 4 is the easiest approach. The focus has already been shifted more towards hero damage and stacking buffs is just extremely powerful (one squire tank, one boost monk, on Huntress with a cat and another one with a genie just amplifies the damage output and versitility so much compared to a single character). So playing this game with a half-way organized group can quickly give you the impression, that the game is way too easy. But what this game really needs is an endless survival mode. Basically the current survival mode without an end at wave 25. There are too approaches, that I could imagine: 1. The difficulty is getting harder and harder and the loot becomes only a tiny bit better - or in other words, the difficulty will eventually outscale the stats. If you put the effort in to reach the highest possible waves, you will end up with slightly better gear, serving as a good motivation. This is more of a competitve approach. 2. The difficulty is getting harder and harder, but the max loot quality increases only up to the current max quality. Just the min loot quality is getting higher. This would mean, that you could also farm other maps than Glitter to get the best drops. You would just have to play Deeper Well wave 70 to get the same loot as Glitter 25. And due to the min loot quality getting better, you would not have to do multiple boring wave 23-25 runs, but you could push high and you would see much more interesting drops at those higher waves. This is more of a quality of life approach (you do not have to set up quick 23-25 runs all the time but you can just continue, you can farm other maps, you can reduce the amount of grind, if you put in a lot of effort into a single, longer run and so on). Besides those details, an endless survival mode would extend the endgame content so much and would give the (endgame) gear farming a purpose. So far they more or less copied DD1 with the addition of Massacre. But I think the game has reached a solid foundation now, where you could actually try to extend it with new stuff and ideas, instead of just adding more of the old content (Shard maps, Crystalline Dimension, Summoner...).
  2. Thanks for the kind words. We are still working through all the changes. There are tons of them and unfortunately they are not documented. Many little things have been changed with the latest patch. About your statement and question about the loot scaling: The values in this document represent a max loot quality (I am not sure why Zaltenos renamed that chapter to "Map Loot Multipliers, because that is kinda missleading"). But it does not make any assumption about the distribution of the loot quality from 0 to this max value. You could have a linear distribution, a Gausian distribution, or some kind of exponential falloff and so on. It is definitely not linear, otherwise you would see amazing drops as often as regular drops. There are definitely additional parameters under the hood, which determine these factors. I do not know what is actually used, but to just give you an example, let's have a look at this picture of different gausian distributions. If -5 would be our min loot quality and +5 our max loot quality, then it is definitely possible to get a drop in the 4-5 range. But it is much less likely compared to an average item drop (In addition, keep in my that the game has a limit of the total items, that can be simultaneously on the ground, and will remove the worst one when dropping a new item). Hence the list can only give you an idea, how one map at a certain difficulty compares to another. And I am not even sure about this, because theoretically they could give one map a much better distribution than another. So the only thing we can say for sure is that a map with a higher value can potentially give you the better item in the end. In addition we do not know, how these values translate into iPWR (since iPWR is much higher). There might be different factors and it does not have to be linearly (a 10% higher value does not automatically mean, that the stats will be exactly 10 % higher). With the latest hotfix, they increased the likelyhood of getting a better drop (Taking the above picture as an example, we could have moved form the red graph to the yellow one for example). The max loot quality is unaffected by that, so you won't get better items now, just the chances of getting such an item have increased. This often leads to the false impressions, that they buffed the loot quality itself, "because you are getting much better items now" - but just the chances of getting such items have been increased. Vise-verse, the loot was also scaling correctly before, but the chances for actually getting a good drop were just much lower. I am sorry for derailing this thread, but I felt the need to clear this up and I hope it was helpful. Maybe I should make a dedicated thread about our scaling and data sheets, where we can discuss all those details and deep game mechanics, although the devs probably won't like that.
  3. That is a very interesting statement, because from my experience so far it seems to be the other way around: Solo seems to be way harder than a (halfway) organized group. I say "halfway organized", because - obvisiouly - if you have undergeared players with you, it is definitely getting harder. So let's consider a group of players with roughly the same state of progression: As a solo player you just cannot be everywhere at the same time. This might not be a big deal on the early maps, which are very small and walkways are short or almost non-existent. But eventually you want to farm Glitterhelm and then you will definitely have to account for the long traveling distances between the different lanes. A full group can cover all lanes here at any time or shift forces according to certain threats, without having to completely abandon another critical location. A group can stack buffs much more effectively and combine gameplay mechanics: For example it is enough, if one player has a prop. cat, because it will buff the other players around it as well. That means, the other Huntress chars can take a genie and therefor have an endless "c" ability, resulting in an extreme amount of sustained (!) DPS. In a group of 4 you can add a monk with a genie to this as well, who can hero boost everyone else indefinitely, while he is using an elemental monk weapon to deal with physical sirens. Which brings me to the next point: Different damage type for sirens. As a solo player you are basically limited to physical damage, because that is the most effective damage type in most cases. Unless you go for some weird hybrid weapon upgrading or equip a DPS pet with elemental damage you cannot deal with all types of sirens. And if do so, your main DPS is reduced / much less effective, because you are missing a prop cat or genie for example. Failsafety: When playing hc, dieing as a solo player can quickly result in an immediate loss of the round. If one out of 4 players dies during the round, chances are good that you can still get through. Amount of mobs: the total amount of mobs is hard-limited because of CPU / performance constraints. That is the reason, why difficulty for an increasing number of player cannot be scaled with the amount of mobs. The only thing they can do is to increase the amount of special mobs at a given timepoint to increase the difficulty. But since most (useful) defenses are AOE based, the damage can be applied to all mobs at once. In addition, the amount of special mobs does not (seem to) scale linearly with the amount of players. The "missing" amount of special mobs are compensated with the HP increase, you mentioned - but this has different implications for the gameplay than an overwhelming force by numbers. I think one very important aspect to consider is the fact, that with an increasing number of players, you are shifting the ratio of tower damage vs. hero damage more and more to the latter one. The more players you have, the less meaningful are your towers (damage-vise). As a solo player you might just get through by buffing your defenses with a boost monk + gemstone; but if you add more players to this, you will definitely have to go for DPS because the focus is now heavily on hero damage and the towers just cannot keep up with that. They changed the way buffs stack (mutliplicative => additive), which is making tower boosting (comparatively) even worse. The role of towers has been reduced to crowd control and there purpose is now just to give you as much time as possible to deal with the mobs yourself. Personally, I really dislike this direction of development the game is taking. I was always warning of implementing game mechanics, which hard counter certain defenses and now CG have exactly done this in an extreme form.
  4. Yes, that is definitely bugged right now. But you should not blame them for a lack of "extensive playtesting". This is something, that would have been noticed for sure and the game config files do contain the correct values, which result into the correct scaling behaviour (for further details see our spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lYTeCaqHvH6ajYg6pn0AyfyITYoHelmnfUMqZ4I2hRo/ ). So I would assume, that something went wrong when they created the release branch and merged their code into it. Maybe someone accidently added an outdated version of the code again which had a fixed value for testing or so... I can only speculate but stuff like this can happen and you should be more careful with your assumptions (because you are basically accusing them to not have done any testing at all).
  5. The current state of the game is also not favorable for such a long break without any updates. Massacre campaign is out and probably beaten by a good amount of veterans already, but Massacre survival is missing. Keep in mind that the game and especially the long term motivation in a DD game is mainly driven by loot. And there is no point to overgrind the current content, when all your gear will become obsolete with the next big update. You could argue, that people might want to prepare for Massacre survival by gearing up, but exactly this gearing up process has already happened and was too fast. DD1 was extreme in this regard, maybe a bit too much, but that super lucky RNG drop was something, people could spend many many hours into. DDA is on the opposite end again, making it quite easy to get decent sets within a few runs. And - as I said - it is just not worth it to grind the last bit of stats out of the current content at the moment. In addition the shift towards hero damage and the massive nerf of tower DPS might be harmful in the long run for Massacre survival. Frankly, the balance was fine for the campaign mode - I would even say that's how the campaign mode should be - more focused on hero damage / active gameplay. But I cannot see that work well with multiple, hour long survival runs. The focus on hero damage requires (too much) active gameplay and many players, who just like to set up a relaxed farm run might not play that much then. If you want to encourage high activity from the players you also have to reward them more. This shortens the gameplay time and therefor reduces the player numbers more quickly.
  6. This will certainly be received pretty badly by a lot of players, especially since there was no announcement and we even had a long discussion thread about this topic in the Early Access forums with an offical reply, stating there are no plans of a reset: Yeah, technically he did not lie but let's be honest, "play" and "legacy" are really looking like the equivalent to DD1's "ranked" and "open" (legacy will support mods, but you can only play with other legacy players and I would not be surprised, if they will add an option to export your "play" progress to "legacy" but not vise-verse) and that being the case, we are basically getting forced "highly encouraged" to start anew... Personally I do not totally mind a fresh start, even though I farmed quite a lot. But I certainly would not had played that much, if I knew a "soft" reset would be imminent. The worst thing is not even the loss of gear, because with the introduction of massacre it would have become irrelevant anyway, but the immense amount of time it took to farm the necessary gold to upgrade it and now the XP again to reach that point. I really hope that they buffed the gold income / or it is at least better in massacre. And I can definitely understand everyone here, who is really upset about this decision. And I am also really disappointed, that I have to grind up again instead of trying out massacre today...
  7. As of right now, there are two modes: "Play" (equivalent to ranked in DD1), where everyone has to start anew. "Legacy" (equivalent to open in DD1), where your progress from EA is saved. It looks like the "legacy" mode will be indeed treated like the open mode in DD1 including mod support and I would not be surprised, if you will be able to export your "play" profile to "legacy" but not vise-verse. In addition, if you play in the legacy mode, you can only play with other "legacy" players. So basically, we are forced "highly encouraged" to start fresh again.
  8. The Ich

    Welcome to Chromatic Games

    I was really surprised when I saw the news, but it's good to see that you are moving forward. I never really got into DD2 - although I tried it several times and a few hundreds of hours - because a game like Dungeon Defenders stays and falls with the loot system. DD:E was just too easy and I do not like the stat system of DD2 at all. DD1 was so close to perfect in this regard. The loot frequency and rarities made grinding worthwhile and most important the stats system was nice. Simple numbers, but easy to read and to compare. You could tell in a fraction of a second if an item was good or bad and seeing that yellow or blue or whatever colored dot on the map was always exciting. And that's a really good indication of a good loot system. So I really hope you take the loot system of DD1 as a base without major changes. In addition to this I would like to see trading being back of course - maybe even with a global auction house / market place like Diablo 3 had (of course not with real money but using the ingame currency or other items) and server-based loot only to prevent any kind of manipulation. Basically a DD1 with the features above and some other improvements like being able to walk while repairing or building and other QoL improvements, a better interface for certain things (search, filter functions and so on) would already fulfill my wishes. In any case I wish you all the best for the new project!
  9. The biggest problem of DD2 is the loot system - in my opinion. Because nowadays it is all about "(hasRightPrimaryStats? + hasRightPassives?) <=> compare". You might argue, that DD1's pure stat system is even simpler, but nothing was so satisfying, than finding an upgrade to one of your sets. And you had to manage multiple sets, one set might tend to have more dmg, you gave it to a ranged tower builder, another one had more hp, you gave it to the summoner (archer-mage-walls), attack speed (huntress) and range maybe to the monk - oh yeah, and you had these last two stats... And of course items could have all the stats, so you could made a real nice hybrid builder - but with the introduction of pure op-dps classes this had become more and more pointless, already in DD1. But at least you also had negative stats, so if that nice upgrade put your speed or casting speed to 0... well, I understand if someone finds this just annoying but all of this certainly added more decisions and complexity. In DD2 you do not have any of those decisions, it is just rightStats? -> Yes/No. And most of the time the answer is straight No - it makes things equally easier as well more boring. I gave DD2 multiple tries with long breaks in between, and what really turned me off is the fact, that everytime I got some nice stuff with all the right passives, it was nerfed eventually. Don't get me wrong, I never complained about this, because I knew the game was still in alpha or whatever state, but you cannot deny the fact, that it ruins the purpose of a game, which is heavily based on loot. (Some) passive stats are very hard to balance. I wish they would go back to their old stat system, but in this game-state it is already too late. The claim that Trendy ignores end game players is factually untrue, and you yourself disproved it when you listed out the development milestones you liked. Mind leaving these claims out in future? I know that my definition and yours of "end game" might differ, a lot in fact. But putting out new maps occasionally which might drop an item, that can have up to ~5% higher base stats (iPWR = 750) is not what I would call "end game". A long time ago I suggested you and iamisom some kind of endless survival mode, with endless loot scaling (!) and endless enemy scaling. And the enemy scaling must be faster/harder than the loot scaling, so you would create a natural skill-based cap. DD1 almost had this, but it was finite. In DD2 you made it endless, while you have to "play" (better say wait) hours to notice any scaling in enemy difficiulty and the loot is the same all the time. Also when balancing things you should always tend to make things more difficult first, You can always nerf the content afterwards, when it is really too hard. But if you do it the other way around, like you do most of the time, people already farmed the loot and are geared up, so there is no point for them to play and for the people without the gear, it might be too hard then.
  10. I have noticed that as well, but I thought it is just a visual bug, because if you unequip and reequip the item, it shows the normal stats. Have you checked, if your towers are doing less damage in such a game compared to a higher level/tower in the tavern?
  11. First of all it's Wyverns Den campaign easy and not freeplay, which gives about 62k xp per run. If you want to progress into freeplay hard or further stuff, you have to get multiple heros or find people with other hero classes to play with.
  12. I noticed that as well, but the offer and ilvl seems to be completely random. And with 2 items every 20 (?) min it is hard to get something decent...
  13. Another thing I have noticed: After I completed Liveroot Forest, I checked out all NPC for a new Quest-Dialogue, there was none, but I had somehow unlocked the pet-NPC and the itemUpgrade-NPC. Then I played Wyvern Den (normal) and completed it. I thought it would be the next logical step. But nothing happened afterwards, so I restarted the game. And Wyvern Den is not available now (yes, even private)!
  14. Yeah, same here. Next on my list (which was actually not visible) was liferoot forest, I completed it and in the end, it says "Quests completed" but I do not see any further quests.
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