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Isukun

Defender-In-Training
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About Isukun

  1. You're not looking for endlessly replayable, you're looking for excuses not to play. Like you said, you don't want the game to take away from your IRL time or to actually encourage you to play in order to advance in the game. Chess doesn't allow that. In fact, the game doesn't progress at all if you don't play.
  2. You seemed to miss the fact that they also get less because they did poorly. What a novel concept! The losers don't get as much XP and IP as the winners NOT the EXACT SAME AMOUNT. I did mention this previously that most other games limit XP gains for less active or effective players. What a novel idea, wish someone would apply that to DD2. Oh right, that's what this thread is about. The funny thing is, I probably would concede to having it be reduced XP, although I feel such a system is far too exploitable, but I get the feeling even that would be objectionable to you. The amount of ignorance in the next part of your post is astounding. It starts with you defending your past ignorance. You gave an example of four character contributing in different ways to defeat a stage. Which I said, wasn't really cheating because unlike the example I gave, each character was actually doing something towards beating the stage. Plus, that sort of convoluted setup wouldn't be necessary with a system where all characters that are used can gain the same reward so long as they all participate in this manner. The difference being that in my scenario, you don't have anybody AFKing, because your DPS is still active in the game and you can get a similar effect with just one account. In addition, because of the XP penalty on using too many characters to build (put in there to deter this kind of abuse) there's even less incentive to multi-account like that since it would actually reduce your gains. On to the specific points you made that were wrong. You don't get 5x the XP or the loot on a single character. That's impossible with this system, something you've failed to get right from the start. And dignity, really? How undignified it is to have to play the game I signed on to to play. Oh woe is me, I can't just leave it running and get a sandwich while my XP and loot are granted to me for nothing. You're already dedicating time out of your real life to play the game, so you may as well play it. Once again, you make it seem like playing the game is punishment and every time you bring that up, I'm just going to have to ask, why are you playing it then? You are also wrong on how the handicaps work. I even explained that one before. You have a multiplier based on your ability that changes how your actual values are perceived by the game. The bar doesn't move, so minimum values remain the same regardless of the handicap, it's just easier for those who can't do as much damage to reach it. Yes, you are correct, I did misread that part of your post, and I apologize for that. As for the second half of your post, though, I haven't missed anything in that regard. This isn't about intentions, it's about action. And even in your example, there are ways for the DPS to get in there and do more than just take out a couple of weakened enemies. Plus, with your particular example, this is only possible due to a known balance issue that's heavily exploited, but unique to monks and very likely to be fixed. In fact, a lot of your argument here kind of hinges on the game remaining in the incomplete and unbalanced state it currently is in. We see problems with solo builds like this because players stagnate too early in the game. Because of the level cap and the absence of higher difficulty levels, we have nothing to balance out players building characters that are overpowered for what the game currently offers. Maybe Onslaught will fix some of that.
  3. And what core element of Chess does the Knight ignore? Each piece moves in a unique way. All pieces are limited to the board spaces and take other pieces by landing on them or are taken when another piece lands on them. Knights don't really do anything that violates the game's core concept. Summoners combined the two core elements into one, but also get a lot of criticism for how they were implemented in the game. And with Magic the Gathering, that's generally part of the design on most card games of that type. You have a set of core rules and then introduce cards that let you break the rules. That's not really going against the core concept of the game, it IS the core concept of the game. Not at all. saying participants should get the rewards for playing is not the same as changing the game. That's an idiotic argument. It's more equivalent to you claiming that every team in a league should get 1st place trophies, regardless of how they actually place. In which case all of them are ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING. You seem to be missing that part. It's not really cheating if everyone actually has a role to play in beating the stage. There's also no reason to do this with my system, though. With the expanded deck system, you'd be able to accomplish the same thing from one account. You could potentially level 5 characters at a time before taking any penalties playing solo. Having multiple accounts would slow down your progression unless you were able to actively play on multiple accounts.
  4. Actually, if you watch the video for the new deck system, you'd see that's where my argument comes from. The 4th point was all about how the deck system separates character creation from determining what you can bring into the game, allowing them to sell character creation slots. He says it right in the video. So I'd say it's more of a stretch to assume we'll be getting new slots for free. There will be some requirement (most likely a necessary purchase) to unlock further character slots. Also, I never argued for reducing the number of character creation slots. That's just another example of your poor reading skills. I argued for reducing the size of the hero deck. The tutorial argument is the one you throw around the most, and I don't think we need a system that forces players to familiarize themselves with other character classes. Basically, the three approaches I've seen here are having players find a character in a stage, which means leveling to that point in order to unlock a character that is now below the level of your existing characters, presenting the problem I mentioned before of forcing players to fill your first slots with characters you may not want to play as. The second is to play through special stages to gain points to unlock a character. This would mean in all likelihood, playing through stages you're overleveled for, which would be kind of boring for many players. And the third is playing as the character prior to unlocking, which means you're basically playing through stages with the character, but gainig no reward for doing so, at which point I think most players would just prefer having access to the character right out. Let's also not forget that abilities and defenses unlock incrementally, which already encourages players to learn as they play. Having further "learning stages" is kind of pointless as players will not have access to the full capabilities of the class from the start. Your comparison to fighting games is also pretty laughable. Fighting games do not rely on character progression, each fighter is interchangeable right from the start. There is no limiting factor that makes a character less usable when they are first unlocked. League of Legends kind of relies on that same formula, so neither are really good examples of this. [[87242,users]] quote: But ok. Let's say i got a friend that never played DD2, and he sees this awesome trailer with a Reaper Hero ( or someing) and he says : cool , i wanna be that guy. Then i say: sweet. You have to find him and help him in the game. If you do as he says, you will be able to play as him. My friend would probebly NOT say : AHHH ! then screw this! I wont play this game. I know a lot of people who probably would pass on the game. Also, with your example of the Death Knights, they do require a character to be at level 55, but they also start at level 55 when you create one, so they're set up more like an upgrade or replacement for the character you leveled up to that point. That's great for a special class, but not really in line with what DD2 does and kind of goes against your argument of extending game play time.
  5. I don't play WoW, so I'm not familiar with the particulars of their classes. I do know, however, that other games don't have classes that allow you to ignore core game elements. Generally, games just don't work that way unless you're looking at sandbox titles. For which he would be getting credit since boosts and buff damage are credited to the supplier of the boost or buff, not the tower. So how am I hating on that character? Being able to AFK on every map is a balance issue based on the current state of the game, which will change. They've mentioned changing difficulty based on number of players, which would make it harder to AFK stages when you have more people. And if playing the game is suffering, why are you playing this game? I'm sorry, but your whole argument stems from the idea that gameplay = torture. That's about as asinine as you can get. AFKing and Lets Plays are different. There's a big difference between actually watching what someone is doing to pick up on game mechanics and strategy and simply AFKing to get free XP and loot. And there are a lot of people who don't simply think of a game as a chat venue. Sure, I talk to my friends when we play and we goof off, but we also play the game, that's why we're there, after all. For us, playing together is a good opportunity to try harder stages and gear up because of the greater communication and willingness to work together. Multiplayer boosts your capabilities and your reward. Most other games would still require or at least encourage other players to participate in multiplayer. They don't allow other players to just sit there while someone else carries them up the progression chain. They throttle XP if they grant it at all, they lock loot to the player who made the kill, or they use one or many of the multiple other restrictions games incorporate to encourage everyone to participate and play together. You make this seem like some sort of obscure, never heard of before, travesty, when it's actually pretty common in games to actively prevent players from doing nothing. In any other game, having a system where you can get to the max level and get all of the best gear without ever having to play the game at the same pace as someone who worked their ass off to get there, would be completely unheard of. And lets also not forget that the door is flung wide for pretty rampant cheating. Rather than hacking accounts like the previous game, people will just run multiple accounts so they can take advantage of free XP and loot on multiple accounts at a time. After all, if we're just supposed to sit there and soak in the XP and loot and never actually do anything in the game, then the game kind of encourages this approach. That's not exactly advantageous for Trendy and their efforts to monetize the game, either. You just get a lot of server strain from people who aren't going to buy anything, and instead spend all their time farming for high level gear to trade or sell.
  6. Maybe have an option on the escape screen to restart level. If you're in a multiplayer game, it could put the notion up for a vote.
  7. Considering the devs have stated they want to monetize character slots, I'd say my assumption on the matter is a safer bet. Yeah, you may get more character slots, but you're likely going to have to pay for them. Anyone who's not willing to dole out the cash is going to likely suffer from having only a few limited slots. And psychic? Really? The game tells you what each character does and how they play. Trendy's not going to hide that info from people, even if they do have an unlock system. Players will want to know what they're unlocking. And if you're going to have players use the character in the supposed tutorial stages, why bother locking it and not just giving players access from the start? Hell, most players probably won't even want to waste their time on tutorial stages for every unlockable character, but you're suggesting they shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Many gamers find tutorials pointless and insulting to their intelligence, if they're familiar with the core concepts, they'd rather just jump into the game and figure it out for themselves, not be babied into a character or concept. Mandatory tutorials sounds like a REALLY awful idea. I think you are also missing the point of the lower level argument. Part of it is linked to the limited slots, since it limits which characters you'll use, rather than giving you freedom to choose. Something I find really odd that you're defending since you claim to be all about freedom of choice. The other part is that it's just plain disruptive. It's actually worse if you unlock the characters faster. Getting five levels in and then having to play the first one again, just to repeat this five levels later so you can pick the characters you wanted from the start? Either that or you have to keep playing with the characters you didn't want to use until you've unlocked the team you did and then start all over again. That really doesn't sound that appealing.
  8. That's not really a flaw with the system, though, it's a flaw with the balance in the game. A lot of people have concerns about how the game is balanced to favor defenses over DPS. It even came up again in the last Devstream, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that rectified down the line. Of course, you're never going to fix every problem and there will always be that guy who just wants to be a ***, but that's what moderation tools are for. Honestly, if a guy is that overgeared, he's not doing enough to challenge himself and could be playing on a higher tier. People don't buy into a game like this to sit around, they want some gameplay with their reward system and a guy who solo builds in a multiplayer match and doesn't allow the other players to DPS is simply disrupting the game. They don't really have anything to gain by playing down like that as the better loot will be at the higher tiers. I also don't see the appeal of playing with a friend who does all the work. It's not really that fun to watch someone else play over the internet. Hotseat, I could see, maybe, but over the internet, sitting in front of the computer by yourself, it's like the antithesis of social gaming.
  9. Not really, you have access to all available characters, now. You're not forced to use up character slots on classes you don't want to use simply because you need to use them to unlock a character you do. Also, by doing this, you are pushing players into specific combinations, rather than encouraging exploration and experimentation. Once you unlock the additional classes, you'll already be established with the starter classes, meaning you'll already be reliant on specific combinations based on those classes and you're not going to want to delete them to make room for classes that aren't leveled. Any classes you wish to unlock and play, are likely going to have to supplement the classes you already use, because they are going to have to work with your existing characters, which were selected from a much more limited pool.
  10. Except this still doesn't address the issue that if you're unlocking the characters, they're going to be lower level than the existing characters you had to use to unlock them. This is kind of restrictive to your gameplay because it doesn't give players choice on their starting characters. With limited character slots in the game, this is a problem and players will find themselves having to pick and choose which classes they want to unlock and may end up stuck with classes they aren't that interested in because they had fewer choices starting out. For instance, if you have six character slots and you have your four main character and four unlockables, you aren't going to be able to use every character the game offers, but you're going to need to use some of the starting characters in order to unlock the unlockables. If you're doing this solo, you're likely going to need to create and level three of the starting characters to accomplish this, limiting you to three of the unlockable characters. Sure you can delete character and reassign that slot, but that forces you to use and level characters you don't give a crap about before you can access the ones you do. I'm not fond of that kind of system and find it hurts player interest early on if they have to use characters they don't like and play several hours into the game to get to the parts they are most interested in.
  11. And at what point was I bashing your post? I didn't insult you, talk down to you, or act like a general ass. I disagreed with your assessment, explained how the system worked and offered an alternative if that wasn't satisfactory. Your response to that is to act like an ass? And you wonder why I get a little hostile at times. As for the first part of your post, you're confusing what I mean by "current system." When I speak of the current system, I'm not talking about my proposal, but the currently existing system they are using in the game, now, which only awards standard XP to the characters who are present during the combat phase. If your builder is not present, they can only earn XP through bonuses, which award significantly less and require you to play a certain way. How can my system be the "current system" if it's not implemented? what you've basically done is attribute a problem that only exists in the game right now to my system which eliminates it by allowing your builders and your DPS to gain XP and loot simultaneously, so there's no need to change your gear or even use that character as a DPS when playing solo. And you try to use this as an argument against the proposed system? If I seem confused by your post, it's because I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they understand what they're responding to, unless they give me cause to doubt that. I have responded to this, several times. Basically, you're asking how those people who sat there and did nothing for the duration of the wave will get credit. And as I've said before, credit for what? Credit for sitting there? Credit for doing nothing? Even with the proposed system, they're still getting loot and gold, so it's not a complete waste of their time, but I really don't think players should advance if they aren't playing the game. That would be the devs. Just a question, how does the game work, now? Oh, right, weak builders can't build because they end up losing the map for the team. So how do they gear up and level now? Oh right, they have to play as DPS. Given that the proposed system offers a handicap to make up for the weaker players, so their XP gain is the same as stronger players and loot drops are totally unaffected, what's the problem, again? Actually, I'm pointing out how it doesn't meet your standards outside of your personal interests. You're also confusing choices offered through character classes and customizable stats. Saying that World of Warcraft doesn't force you to play a healer is like saying DDII doesn't force you to play as a Squire, which it doesn't. If you play as a healer in WoW, though, the existence of different stats doesn't mean that the game is giving you a choice of building a DPS healer who never uses any healing abilities to focus on fighting hand-to-hand.
  12. That's even more reason to just have them unlocked from the start. If you want an effective "tutorial" of sorts, you need to be able to use the character. Having special maps just to demonstrate what a character can do is kind of a waste of developer time and effort when they could just let you do these things yourself with special missions on existing stages, have a sort of mini-tutorial campaign with maybe a costume unlock for completing it, although I don't really think even that's necessary. We don't have tutorials for the existing characters.
  13. Considering the limited character slots and the encouragement to level three characters at a time, I'd rather not see the need to unlock characters. Plus having to unlock new characters suggests there is some advantage they present that the basic 4 do not. I'd rather just see well balanced characters that you can freely choose from the start. There are other things you can use for that kind of progression, like special costumes, pets, or gear.
  14. And yet, there are people who WANT to play solo and the devs WANT to improve that aspect of the game and there are people who may WANT to play strictly DPS, but I guess their choices don't matter, only the specific one you wish to make. Having different stats does give you some choices in how you approach problems, but it shouldn't allow you to ignore half of the game. Like I said, it doesn't work from the other end, and that's due to the way the game is balanced. They aren't going to retool it to make DPS's able to crush a stage, though. If they rebalance, it will be to make things harder for builders so both roles are necessary in a stage. At that point, if you want to do anything outside of multiplayer, you're going to HAVE to get your hands dirty and actually fight. That's not a betrayal towards you or a denial of choices. The choice you're talking about now is only viable due to a game imbalance. Are you going to complain when they rebalance to make DPS more viable that you can't solo anymore without having to actually use a weapon?
  15. Ghost [WoRM] quote: Players are expected to do as they please when they have options. Don't expect anyone to play any part of the game that they're not interested in, that's why we have options for how we play. For example, Diablo 3 has 6 classes, bounties, uber bosses, rifting, and greater rifting. There are options for players to do as they please. Dungeon Defenders 2 has 4 classes, hero stats, ability stats, and tower stats. There are options for players to do as they please. Actually there aren't as many options as you think. Try solo without a builder. It doesn't really work, no matter how much you build up your DPS. Hell, full DPS teams don't work out so well at higher levels, either. The game simply isn't structured to let people focus on that kind of specialization. This is a problem that came up in the last devstream and I wouldn't be surprised to see the game balance swing back again to even out some of the imbalances between the two aspects of the game and prevent cases where you can just build without having to have DPS characters to pick up the slack. So what you're looking for is more a special exception for your particular play style that doesn't apply to other play styles, which can't function independently due to current balance issues. The game isn't JUST a tower defense game, so there's no reason they should dumb down the action RPG aspects just to benefit players who don't want to take part. They certainly didn't do the opposite. Hybrid games aren't made to offer players choices in that regard, they're made to put a different spin on an established genre and offer players a new experience. If you don't like the new experience, there are other games that offer a more traditional one.
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