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DD2's MOBA Mode - Based in FUN or COMPETITION?


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For starters, I hope the MOBA mode remains casual as suggested thus far, though a few concerns about that direction changing; let me explain.

This is an important question to me with Trendy hinting and suggesting the MOBA half is more relaxed and casual than other MOBA's. However words used were like "Kinda" [1] and "toned down a bit". [1] I wasn't really feeling as if it is certain and... while not flip-floppy, just uncertain. And then one article it seems more certain about being being casual fun [2]. But since they are willing to support the MOBA mode based on how much attention it receives: "If they're liking it and enjoying it we'll support it as much as we can," [1] I wonder if they are considering the possibility for the MOBA mode to be more serious and that is a mild concern I have, especially seeing there was a few people on the forums that would like this to be competitive... on the tournament sort of level.

I might take some flak for this but I think the MOBA community in general, as a holistic entity, has tons of terrible people. Terrible perhaps isn't a good enough description: Tantrum-Throwing egotistical ***-hats, while immature and vulgar of me, still doesn't do how vicious and mean-spirited they are to enemy players (even allies). The super competitive nature of League and DOTA's communities is what ruins perfectly fine games. To clarify: I Love League, I think it is an amazingly well done game. However the community scares me off every time and I can only play the game in bursts. I always avoid PvP in League, even NON-RANKED PvP matches often have volatile and hostile players on both my team and theirs. Whenever I do play League, it's with a full party, or almost full party of friends I know personally and play Versus BOTS, avoiding the community as much as I possibly can.

Maybe this is just me personally but ... I don't want DD2 to end up like League's community, or even worse, DOTA's. I believe Trendy has the right idea on keeping it casual and it is my personal hope that DD2's MOBA is "too casual" to appeal to the typical League or DOTA player. I honestly don't understand the use of the term "casual" like it's an insult either. Sometimes I play a game hardcore, but sometimes I just want to be casual and just have fun for the sake of having fun. I enjoy the MOBA gameplay, but the communities tend to ruin the fun.

[[Snip]]I understand your concerns with the community. It's something that we're focusing on. We found that MOBAs work best when:

A) You play with friends or people you know, and
B) You are being positively reinforced.

Both of these points are being considered when developing the game.

[[Snip]]


This quote is sort of taken out of context, originally answering another thread about a different subject but only touched briefly on the corrosive nature of most MOBA communities. I'm more curious for a more direct response about how firm they are about being casual and avoiding draining the fun out of the game (I think this would be the first ever MOBA made on the idea of fun rather than swinging your competitive ePeen). And what their plan is to keep the community from BECOMING volatile, hostile and mean-spirited. I'm also curious what you all think. Casual or Hardcore MOBA Mode? Maybe I am just worrying about nothing.



REFERENCES - info related to some quotes used. Also for you to look/enjoy:

[1] - TotalBiscuit playing a demo at PAX = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BKNFV9j9f4

[2] - Interview where Asher mentions game-play being Fun oriented for the MOBA = http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/dungeon-defender-2s-moba-is-improved-by-a-lack-of-gear-faster-game-times-an


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EDIT: Continue to second post and my rebuttal, attempting to offer proof and support for my claims that second post asks for.

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Wow...

Your reasoning seems to be mostly barren as to why Dota2 consists of a horrid community, yet you somehow manage to muster up four paragraphs on the very topic. How is this possible? Sounding off with such declarative statements makes you look uninformed and worse, naive. Every community has it's own fair share of blight; your generalities are just supporting a stance that has no foundation to stand on. Speak with facts please.

Both LoL and Dota2 are some of the most successful properties in every statistical facet that can be measured in today. These games share a rich, diverse, community that most developers dream of obtaining with their own properties. I bet Trendy would like to have these type of problems...

Instead, they have to put it all on the line in hopes that they break even. They are trying something new with a genre with zero guarantees it'll succeed. And how does this wonderful community that you speak of respond? With pessimism and pretentiousness. Countless threads pledging to never try the moba no matter what Trendy does with the mechanics. Wonderful community indeed...

I can also think of quite a few games with next to zero market share that consists of nothing but the negative shadow dwellers that you fear so much. These issues plague all gaming communities.



Your fears about any sort of competitive mode seem... misplaced at best.

Part of the appeal of a moba is the skill and teamwork required to obtain victory. It's a genre with a high threshold for teamwork. Any game that requires this level of play whether sport or game is going to have its fair share of high stakes, adrenaline thrilled, competition. It's ingrained in moba.

League of Legends is the most casual moba on the market. You honestly can't get more casual than LoL. It's so simplistic in terms of the genre it puzzles me that you use it as your prime example in doom and gloom competitiveness. This observation alone completely dismantles your casual mode = fun theory.



I'll be honest, DD2 is going to end up being a competitive game my friend; and that's a wonderful thing.

If you watch the Total Biscuits video; you can hear them mention about isometric controls. This means DD2 is a third person game with isometric skill. Far from the casual you crave...

You want the moba to have lasting appeal? Give it matchmaking.
You want people to care about the game in general? Make statistics a factor.
You want to Dungeon Defenders 2 to thrive? Make it competitive.

In the end, lets be honest, the people who invest in the DD2 moba will not be you. It will be the new community that shows up and is very interested in a competitive scene relating to trendy's moba. You're demanding something that you're likely not going to support anyway, and you know it.


I'm willing to spend the dollars needed to support a thriving competitive DD2 moba scene. Can you say the same?

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Just a reminder before the convo goes any further, keep it friendly <3

[QUOTE]You may wish to respond to something by disagreeing with it. That’s fine. But, remember to criticize ideas, not people. Please avoid:

Name-calling.
Ad hominem attacks. (Character attacks.)
Responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content.
Knee-jerk contradiction.

Instead, provide reasoned counter-arguments that improve the conversation.[/QUOTE]

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Personally, I'd actually prefer it if the MOBA didn't go competitive.

Now, don't get me wrong. I see the allure to competitive, the challenge of it all. I've played LoL and Dota2, and I've had a lot of fun with them. Heck, I've spent money in LoL, more money than I like to admit, because I enjoy it enough to want to have fancy skins to show off. The point is always going to remain that competitive does work, it is successful, and a community will get behind it.

But the point also has to remain that a competitive community can and will treat other members... Poorly. To put it mildly. Extremely mildly. I can not begin to tell you how many times I've had char choice, item choice, spell choice, gameplay, etc, etc ridiculed and myself insulted over one poor game. And while, yes, winning is usually more fun than losing... That doesn't mean that sort of language or those sorts of actions can be condoned.

Although I will admit, I get a chuckle when people degrade me for the amount of kills I get... When I'm playing as a support.

I would love to see a MOBA that is casual. Again, I see the appeal in competitive... But ultimately, end of the day, I want to play this game and have some fun. That's a lot harder to do when people are only competitive. It goes from a fun game to a game where people either did good... Or bad. And everyone wants to share who did bad and how. In the worst way.

And you can't say that people will not support casual. I personally would spend some money in this game for the sake of fun. That is what the entertainment industry is all about. If people think this is fun, money will be spent on it. While competitive is an option, and one that has proven successful especially with MOBAs... That doesn't mean it has to be the only way things are done.

I understand people are still going to want competitive. And I'll even encourage it to a degree. But I'm still going to hold out that a casual game will always be an option with this MOBA mode.

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It's kind of hard for them to control all of the competitive nature of the MOBA overall. Some people will play it more competitively than others. As far as tournament support and the like, I wouldn't mind it. I just want the option to play short games casually as I would like to, and let those who want to play competitively do so. Maybe there could be a distinction in account settings or something so those players will be matched up with one another based on what their preferences are.

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Wow...

Your reasoning seems to be mostly barren as to why Dota2 consists of a horrid community, yet you somehow manage to muster up four paragraphs on the very topic. How is this possible? Sounding off with such declarative statements makes you look uninformed and worse, naive. ... Speak with facts please.

...

And how does this wonderful community that you speak of respond? With pessimism and pretentiousness ... Wonderful community indeed...

...

League of Legends is the most casual moba on the market. You honestly can't get more casual than LoL. It's so simplistic in terms of the genre it puzzles me that you use it as your prime example in doom and gloom competitiveness. This observation alone completely dismantles your casual mode = fun theory.


...

In the end, lets be honest, the people who invest in the DD2 moba will not be you. It will be the new community that shows up and is very interested in a competitive scene relating to trendy's moba. You're demanding something that you're likely not going to support anyway, and you know it.


I'm willing to spend the dollars needed to support a thriving competitive DD2 moba scene. Can you say the same?


I apologize for not getting around to this sooner, I also apologize if I came across and pessimistic and pretentious, it most certainly wasn't my intention. You say my claims are unfounded when something so generally obvious normally doesn't need support. MOBA communities are hostile and normally bad. But I'll dig up as much support and proof for my claims then to please you. There is a lot of points to tackle and I'll try my best to keep it relativity organized.

What proof is there that MOBA communities are worse than other game communities? I'll also throw in the additional challenge of answering why they are. So Are they really, and why? I'll devote the first bit to as much proof as I can collect while the second segment is why, and help support the first piece.





(1). Proof in a very concrete form like empirical scientific data is hard to find from a professional inquiry. Studies of people trying to blame violence on all video games we all know about, but nothing targeting specific genres or anything remotely useful to our topic on MOBAs specifically. So the best I can do is gather information from non-formal sources like general searches. BEFORE YOU WORRY, I know typing in polarized or biased sentences into search engines will give biased results. If your curious what search terms I used: "Worst Online Community" was the first and the second was "MOBA Communities" without adjectives to swing it in any one direction.

My Findings.
Top 5 Worst Gaming Communities - MOBA Tropes - A PAX Panel about Gaming - Even a guide -> HOW TO SURVIVE: The MOBA Community - And hundreds of individual posts from players and their personal experience. But with so many and it likely being "too informal" and personal, I wont try and link every "MOBA communities burned me" thread in existence.

"Worst Online Communities" cam up with a few interesting Polls. They also support what I say: MOBA communities are terrible, toxic, and mean. The top of the poll or pervading opinion on the worst communities are: a MOBA, Call of Duty, or any other FPS Xbox-Live game (Like Halo). Occasionally I would see ones that fall out of this MOBA/Xbox-Live-FPS catagory, but usually it was CoD or a MOBA. Worst Community you Encountered? - POLL: Worst Gaming Community Ever? - Worst Online Community

Does DOTA deserve my scorn? Perhaps not as much. COD/MOBA communities are pulled the worst, but further breakdown I did there was a few more things to note. COD more often rated if the player wasn't a PC gamer. MOBAs if they were not a Xbox player, not too surprising. But for MOBAs, of the 3 main MOBAs mentioned, HoN, LoL, and DOTA: HoN is by far ranked the worst, DOTA seems to fall in second with LoL in third, but not very far from DOTA.

Attempting to search for "MOBA Communities" came up with plenty of threads about how they are bad, most I will actually save for point-2. Interestingly "MOBA Communities" in Youtube came up with random stuff not related to them being good or bad for me, with the exception of the top third video suggested: MOBAs

I find it interesting I was called to show proof for claims of DOTA's community being bad, in fact they are all bad. It's a widely accepted consensus. Even those who don't say MOBAs are the worst, often admit they are still very bad. Asking me to support my claims of the MOBA Community being hostile and mean is like asking me to support the claim my sky is blue. It's widely accepted, but none the less I'll pile this data all together. The fact the MOBA tropes are there on the tropes website should say something. It is a trope partially because of it's often occurrence.





(2). Supports #1 in the view MOBAs are hostile and have venomous communities. But here there is also people looking for a SOLUTION to the problem and how they might go around fixing it. The PAX Video Again? They also hint at solutions to the problem in the second half. - Being mean to new players is economic - Thread: Newbs are economic dead weight, suggested - An Arena of ePeens: What LoL taught me about people - More hinting that newbs are a drag, and not a wise economic investment for the player - More - And More - Still More - Moar

The first two of the links are important in my opinion. MOBA communities are terrible. But if you watch the PAX videos it adds some interesting insight: People aren't typically 'A-holes' for the sake of being an a-hole. The game mechanics encourage a-hole play. Lets go over what everyone else has already said in the links. A new player is not only dead weight. Not only does he/she die and you lose a lane partner... but they hurt you and the whole team more than not contributing for 40 seconds, they also feed the enemy team gold and experience in the process. Quote, "That said, the tremendous amount of effort required to tell him how to play whilst also simultaneously playing the game well myself is an opportunity cost (almost) no living man is willing to pay. It simply takes too much effort to teach someone how to play HoN while actually playing HoN. And since I'm never going to see said player again in my life, why bother?" And it makes a lot of sense doesn't it? It's not a worthwhile economic investment to help new players, in fact, screaming at them and scaring them away, even if it makes a match 4v5... is better than having 4v5 with a newb and feeder on your team. Mainstream MOBA mechanics encourage you to be a [insert your preferred profanity here].

But this also means this can be changed and fixed. Implementing game mechanics that encourage helping new players to secure victory encourage positive, helpful communities. I believe my concern is still valid. normal MOBA communities are toxic and they all share similar, unforgiving mechanics. I think my casual argument isn't debunked, there was nothing offered to debunk it. I think the changes to the MOBA formula seen so far by Trendy is a step in the right direction: Consumable based shop items stopping snowballing, one life bursts. The new player might still die horribly, and the enemy buffed... But it's a one life, temporary burst instead of making the enemy snowball and force the entire team to lose. Suddenly the new player isn't nearly as much of an economic dead weight that drags your team down... or at least, doesn't drag the team down as much anymore. This is a good, this helps make it less toxic towards new players. This alone might not fix the entire problem, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Am I pessimistic towards Trendy's ability to 'do it right'? No. But I do think this is a serious topic, and a complex one that will require creative design solutions. Do I think Trendy is talented? Absolutely. Do I think Trendy is omci-scent, all knowing and can never go wrong? No, that's unrealistic to shove that expectation on them. They could misstep, or make a bad design choice just like anyone else because they are still merely human, not super-human. And I wish to encourage them to go in the direction they are currently going, and hopefully take it farther.

I apologize for cutting down your quote, but hit the 10,000 character limit offering the evidence you wanted in my rebuttals.

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Quote: I'm willing to spend the dollars needed to support a thriving competitive DD2 moba scene. Can you say the same?

Yes. This seemed like an unfair attack rather than a valid question. Despite my horrible experience with DOTA and LoL communities, I've still spent over 300 dollars on LoL. I can still find it a fun game so long as I queue only with friends and avoid the community. And the game is indeed really fun. So can I say the same I'll spend money supporting it? Yes. I love the DD franchise more than League and I spent plenty on League despite the community.

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Really there isn't a market for another competitive MMO. Between LoL, DotA2, and HoN, not to mention lesser known MobAs like Battle of Graxia, there just isn't enough people out to spare for yet another competitive MobA.

If Trendy wants to make a successful Moba, they'll have to do something different with it. . Like go casual.

People will be competitive with it. That can't be helped. But really, if you strip away every single reason someone can have for demonstrating a bad attitude about losing, then they're throwing a tantrum for no reason whatsoever. Then they're doing nothing but making an absolute fool of themselves.

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>MOBA communities are terrible, toxic, and mean.
>It's a widely accepted consensus.
>Even those who don't say MOBAs are the worst, often admit they are still very bad.
>Asking me to support my claims of the MOBA Community being hostile and mean is like asking me to support the claim my sky is blue.
>normal MOBA communities are toxic and they all share similar, unforgiving mechanics.


Again, all communities with rabid fandoms experience these issues. You continue to project an agenda of generalities. I could pick any gaming medium and pull up a Google search listing as to why these franchises consist of toxic environments. This point continues to fall on deaf ears with you.

I'm still confused as to what exactly your end game is with this topic? It's already known that DD2 has been split into two separate entities. Co-op and PvP. They have stated repeatedly that Pvp is for DD fans looking to satisfy a competitive craving. Pvp, player vs player.

"The free-to-play game will feature a cooperative and competitive mode and is expected to include more story and deeper lore than its predecessor." Source: http://bit.ly/10xsGkv

Stripping out everything that makes moba appealing is a laughably absurd to me. Moba is a team based game heavily reliant on skill and competition. Human error will cause frustration. Again these elements are ingrained in moba. The moba is obviously nearing a finishing state in its foundation. This can be seen by the released footage. Everything you fear is already set in motion.

Your points on consumables baffle me as well. The concept of consumable items are probably the most hardcore mechanic presented in a modern moba in a very long time. Loss of items upon death is incredibly appealing. This just ups the competitive stakes.

Human error is unforgiving.


Really there isn't a market for another competitive MMO.


Same could be said for tower defense; but then I'd just be speaking in random generalities wouldn't I?

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Your points on consumables baffle me as well. The concept of consumable items are probably the most hardcore mechanic presented in a modern moba in a very long time. Loss of items upon death is incredibly appealing. This just ups the competitive stakes.

Human error is unforgiving.


Well, consumables are actually far more forgiving than the way most Mobas are set up now.

By what I've seen, you'll only be using 2-3 in combination with each other. Plus these consumables don't seem too difficult to replace. Let's compare this to a game that uses items.

Let's consider HoN and DotA2 for instance. One death, you're behind. Then not only are you behind, but they can kill you more easily now. Two deaths, you're really far behind, and they can kill you a -lot- more easily now. Three deaths, that's it. You might as well just surrender, because it'll be a team effort to catch up to them. LoL is a bit more forgiving. LoL allows, probably, 5 deaths before you should just throw in the towel and surrender at 20 minutes in.

With consumables, all you need to do is focus fire on someone who's being a problem, and guess what? They lose everything. They become perfectly ordinary again after one death, and all you need to do is kill someone once or twice to put them back in their place. They'll only have so much gold to spend for consumable replacement if you kill them repeatedly. Items stick with them forever even if they happen to do something silly like die a couple of times. Yes, it's a team effort to eliminate someone who's using consumables, but I wouldn't necessarily call consumables 'hardcore' by far. If anything, consumables will promote stupid (and fun) behavior because consumables can be easily replaced if you're doing well.

Hey guys, I can afford to replace my consumables two times over so I'm just going to tower dive this person! Wish me luck!

And Dungeon Defenders is a fairly successful tower defense game because it did new things with it. It'll have to do the same with its MobA. It can't compete with competitive mobas. It has to create a genre for itself, just as it did with the tower defense game.

Although really how 'hardcore' it is to lose buffs on deaths is just an opinion. But it's a lot more difficult to snowball in the Moba, which I approve of.

But, time will tell what happens to it, really. It's too early to tell for certain what direction they're going to take with it.

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I really do hope that the MOBA does turn out to be more casual. Competitive gaming in general just leads me to being frustrated quickly -- trying so hard to 'be good' and what not.

I can definitely relate to what you're saying about how communities are generally bad when it comes to MOBA games. Not being experienced with MOBA games myself, I tried Smite for once (looked fun. Liked the 3rd person view over the top-down view) and was quickly called out (in an unnecessarily rude way of course) that I was a bad player. It would seem that even though after I explained that I was new to both the game and the genre, it was no excuse to be inexperienced. I've also had repeated instances of this as well, and this seriously discouraged me from even touching the genre and trying to learn how to play such games so I can have fun playing.

DD2, however, seems to just plan annihilate most of the confusion that new players are presented when playing a MOBA for the first time. "What do I do?" "What items do I buy?" To me (from what I've seen thus far), the game essentially makes a 'gateway' for someone to learn the minimum basics of playing the genre -- being cautious so you're not getting yourself killed constantly and end up accidentally feeding the enemy and what not.

Personally, I'm hoping that they eventually add bots to the PvP mode, so as to play with friends (with or against them with bots). None of my friends are good at MOBAs, likewise to myself, so it would be fun to just go against each other and learn the characters/game/genre.

To conclude, I will probably expect some people who will be along the lines of "omg stop feeding uninstall ur game plz" (/exagerration on the impersonation), but I doubt it will be too bad. Hopefully.

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This post is directed at MintyCool and his unnecessary antagonism in a thread whose sole purpose was to discuss the viability of DD2's MOBA game in either a casual or competitive setting. Your posts, like other antagonistic posts that take the opposite side from the OP's post, are rife with hypocrisy and blatant sarcasm. It's rather annoying to see somebody bravely be the first responder to a thread and go out of their way to state their view points in the most unfriendly way. Please, choose your words more wisely when talking to other people if you want them to understand and respect your viewpoint. Sure, it's the Internet, but does that mean we cannot be civil?

Again, all communities with rabid fandoms experience these issues. You continue to project an agenda of generalities.


This particular quote is exactly what I'm talking about. Extreme hypocrisy. You complain about the DD community making too many generalizations then you turn around and generalize us as a bunch of "rabid fans." Look at yourself
in a mirror, maybe.

Now before I force myself to be unpleasant, which I often end up doing, let's move on to the point of this thread that you are asking about.

I'm still confused as to what exactly your end game is with this topic? It's already known that DD2 has been split into two separate entities. Co-op and PvP. They have stated repeatedly that Pvp is for DD fans looking to satisfy a competitive craving. Pvp, player vs player.


The point of this thread, as I see it, is to facilitate a civil discussion about the ups and downs of going with a casual feel (however that may be interpreted is up to the reader) and also to discuss the prospect of it being competitive in its nature like most popular MOBAs today. Nako-Chan was probably curious about why people on the pro-competitive side thought the way they did. Proper forum discussions invite those people to put in their two cents.

Now with your argument that the game is intentionally being split between the modes with limited(as far as we all know) interaction between the two, I can often agree. I would love to tell people who think that the prospect of DD2's MOBA mode being too competitive or even having a MOBA mode at all that they need not worry about it and wait for the co-op mode that they are familiar with to arrive. Their fears that the new mode will attract new players to the series who are affiliated with the generally toxic MOBA community (yes, I'm taking a stance here. Anybody who has played enough of any mainstream MOBA would be LYING to themselves if don't think that at least half of the players have attitude problems when they game in a competitive, team-based game) are not unfounded. It may possibly spoil the overall experience and force Trendy to tend to those players' needs by balancing the game heavily around tournaments. It may implement a ranking ladder or a system that segregates competitive from casual gaming through matchmaking, as mentioned by gotrunks712. These are all valid reasons to be suspicious about the sudden and seemingly random decision to make a full-fledged co op mode.

Simply telling people that they don't HAVE to play the MOBA if they don't like it just won't suffice. There's no stopping a toxic player from the MOBA from playing co op games and stealing loot or kicking players for no reason, or just being generally rude. There's also no stopping an elitist long time co op fan from going into the MOBA and flaming all of the newbies for whatever reason. If the game goes heavy on the competition then perhaps more staff or more overall attention will be given to the competitive side than the original, genre-defining co op side. There's no telling what is going to happen until it happens, but the OP started this thread to at least get a little insight into WHY people are thinking they way that they are.

Your points on consumables baffle me as well. The concept of consumable items are probably the most hardcore mechanic presented in a modern moba in a very long time. Loss of items upon death is incredibly appealing. This just ups the competitive stakes.


Yes, this consumable only environment is a mechanic that may as well set DD2 apart from the rest of the current genre. They are trying something new in order to keep the game from looking like a stale copy-paste of other MOBAs. Now defining the mechanic as hardcore may be a stretch.

Most MOBAs have a heavy focus on laning. You know, farm the minions, mess with your enemies, but play safe until you make enough dough to purchase the big guns. These guns will stick with your character once purchased and never go away until you want them to. That's pretty standard stuff.

This consumable system, to me, is lessening the impact of the laning phase. Farming won't be AS important, since it will only net you potentially temporary boosts (how big these boosts will be, we have yet to observe). This mechanic encourages risk-taking behavior in games that could make each game more fun and chaotic. The focus could shift to pushing down towers or killing your opponents on the spot instead of just routing them. Consuming an oil or elixir is a risk, because it paints a big target on your head because you just deemed yourself worthy of that target. The payout of having that advantage is rather big, but like in any MOBA game, experienced players will see that and focus you down. They don't need to be hardcore to learn that particular consumables on particular heroes in particular matches can be somewhat game-changing.

As for hardcore mechanics/elements, I have seen no serious signs of any such things in the current released information. There hasn't been any announcement of critical strikes, chance to dodge attacks or apply stuns, or particularly dangerous creeps that change the pace of the match(super creeps from destroying barracks or inhibitors from Dota and LoL, respectively). The closest things to a hardcore mechanic that I've seen with the heroes so far is the use of the Man and Machine's Smoke Screen spell to exploit the game's fog of war and line of sight mechanics and the Squire's CHANCE to retaliate against physical strikes. There don't seem to be that many mechanics all mixed into combat, at least from what I've seen.

The competitive MOBA market is in its prime with hard hitters like Heroes of Newerth, Dota2, and most notably League of Legends. Sure, there are also many other more "indie" titles in the genre, but it is very difficult to enter into the scene with serious competitive overtones and emphasis on tournaments since these mainstream titles have such a large following and name for themselves already. It's like new devs trying to force a PvP shooter to compete with industry giants like Call of Duty, Battlefield, and Halo. It's very unwise to try something new with a game and expect it to beat out big name games like these that are currently being played and, in some cases, worshipped.

Same could be said for tower defense; but then I'd just be speaking in random generalities wouldn't I?


I will expect the same level of sarcasm in your response, but hopefully you can surprise me with some decency. :)

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Everyone is so quick to criticize MOBA games for having poor communities, but fail to realize that this is inevitable because of the style of the game. If no one has noticed yet, "toxic" players are common because MOBAs are a team based competitive game. Every single team-based pvp setting has "toxic" players because each person is trying to do what they believe is the best course of action. Sadly, people aren't able to determine the best way to communicate their ideas with their team. Obviously, this is a positive spin on this because there are players who simply refuse to cooperate. However, I believe players like this are within every team game whether it is competitive or not.

Now, my problem with people attacking MOBAs and their communities is that these people are just as close minded as the people who cannot work as a team. Have any of you actually ever gone out and played a sport? I am not here to antagonize people over the internet about not enjoying the sunlight, but maybe it is the fact that the people that cannot deal with a competitive team environment are the ones that come to play games by themselves or with small groups. There is nothing wrong with people doing this, and I am not generalizing everyone to this standard, it is only an observation.

I would also like to continue this topic with physical sports because they can be related to esports, games like MOBAs or CoD. Pretty much every physical team sport has what these communities, or the internet in general, consider "toxic" players. It is a simple fact that there will always be players like this in these similar environments. Anyone here that plays MOBAs or other team video games as well as physical sports will be able to relate "toxic" players on the internet to teammates or opponents they may have played with. These people should also be able to realize that their are still a lot of good players in both of these environments, but they tend to be less vocal.

What I propose is targeted at the player base, especially those against these "toxic" communities. Complaining about these players is a waste of your time. Try to communicate, but if it fails take advantage of in-game features, like muting or ignoring, and continue to play the game and have fun. MOBAs are competitive in their design. Trying to make the game casual will not stop players from getting heated while they play the game.

Now, what DD2 should focus on to improve the game and reduce some of the negativity that is inherent in this style of game is another question. One method is removing speech between the two teams. PvP in WoW used this feature and it kept players from going at it too much in game. Of course players still found ways to taunt the other team and butt heads on the forums, but as I have pointed out this is inevitable. Good methods for creating good teamwork can be seen in the honor system LoL uses. It may have lost some of its effects since its initial release, but it provides a good basis for encouraging teamwork, friendliness and leadership. As long as DD2 is able to implement similar features the game will not be too "toxic." The rest of improving the community is held completely in the hands of the players. Don't fight what is inevitable in the competitiveness of the game. Instead, work with other players to improve the environment and make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

Going back and reading a little more of the topic I have come up with a question for everyone else. What exactly is your idea of a casual MOBA? I have mentioned there are ways to make the community more enjoyable, but I don't understand how you make the style of game casual. It has been said how Trendy is using consumable which can reduce the unforgivable poor play, however, this does not make the game more casual. My idea of a casual game is Animal Crossing or Sims. Actually a casual game boils down (for me of course) to be any game where my decisions do not influence, or at least not a heavy influence, on the game for other players. Trying to make a competitive game casual will create toxicity. It leaves some players with the idea of, "I am here to have a good time and winning is not the most important thing for me," and the on the other side, "I am here to kick the other team in the ***." Attempting to change the style of the game would create a bridge between the player base and most likely not improve on the common issue among MOBAs.

Do note that even though I take a stance I am still curious about the idea of a casual MOBA, which is the reason I ask the question. I may not think it is very possible, but I am open to the idea of it if it can be created successfully.

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MOBA's are often competitive because the fun in those games is to win the match, but doing so largely depends on your team, and therefore your fun depends on the performance of your team (and your own ofcouse). If your teammates are doing poorly, the game is no fun anymore because it's a lost cause. You're then forced to sit out the entire match which can get frustrating. Especially when you're playing a MOBA without proper matchmaking, the majority of the games will be either stomp or get stomped.

IMO there's a few ways to make a MOBA more casual:

- Bigger teams. More people on each team increases the chance that the combined skill of the players between the 2 teams are more equal.
- Shorter matches. If a game lasts max 10~12 minutes, it's a less big 'waste of time' when your team is getting stomped.
- More than 2 teams. If one team is doing well, they will attract more attention and get double teamed. This will make it more challenging for people good at the game, and relieve some pressure off people performing poorly.

The way to make MOBA's more casual is to make it so that people that get teamed with bad teammates can still spend their time usefully, make the wasted time as little as possible, or make the matches more even.

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MOBA's are often competitive because the fun in those games is to win the match, but doing so largely depends on your team, and therefore your fun depends on the performance of your team (and your own ofcouse). If your teammates are doing poorly, the game is no fun anymore because it's a lost cause. You're then forced to sit out the entire match which can get frustrating. Especially when you're playing a MOBA without proper matchmaking, the majority of the games will be either stomp or get stomped.

IMO there's a few ways to make a MOBA more casual:

- Bigger teams. More people on each team increases the chance that the combined skill of the players between the 2 teams are more equal.
- Shorter matches. If a game lasts max 10~12 minutes, it's a less big 'waste of time' when your team is getting stomped.
- More than 2 teams. If one team is doing well, they will attract more attention and get double teamed. This will make it more challenging for people good at the game, and relieve some pressure off people performing poorly.

The way to make MOBA's more casual is to make it so that people that get teamed with bad teammates can still spend their time usefully, make the wasted time as little as possible, or make the matches more even.


I think your ideas are pretty good and I can justify the, in my some of my own experiences.

I'll start by commenting on bigger teams because I feel this is the most controversial one. From a statistical stand point I would think having more players on each team would bring them closer to a similar skill level. One bad player in a team of 5 has more impact to a loss then one bad player in a team of 10. However, some people may feel that they are able to contribute less to a victory, but I don't have much to give a true example to this.

If anyone has ever played Dominion or ARAM in League these games are very fast paced and I also feel people have less time to type about their bull****. The games are pretty quick and focused around more interaction between opposing and less about farming, which make the game pretty fun. Dominion, more specifically, is very centered around taking and holding objectives.

I feel as though more than 2 teams takes away from the main MOBA scene and would be pretty hard to develop and balance. I don't think it would be a pretty interesting game mode and could turn into something pretty fun. Sadly, it would still be difficult to implement :(

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I will support this game because I loved the original. However, I really never saw the need for Trendy to branch into the MOBA arena. The original Dungeon Defenders was such a unique combination of gaming genre's that it really stood out for me. I think they did some amazing things and it should have been enough to stand on its own. I'm very worried that Trendy seems to think that the Dungeon Defenders line needs a MOBA to support it. I guess the pricing strategies for the original just didnt work out very well even though I personally spent over 200 on it...

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