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Hi Trendy!

I absolutely loved DD. It remains a game played by myself, my other half, and my friends.

However, I'm curious as to what the plans for DU in the sequel will be.

DUs in the original worked just fine when there were 1-2 people, but it got to be very restrictive when there were more. Rather than each player contributing with their own sets of towers, it ultimately boiled down to whoever tower stats were the highest. That was the tower builder. Nobody else was to touch towers. DU was too limiting to waste it on weaker towers.

This is a shame, as it really restricts a lot of what the game was about. Also, having DU as a resource as it is in DD brings up another issue, that being a Summoner.

Now, I'll be totally honest in saying that I love the idea behind the summoner. I also understand that the summoner has a separate DU pool because.. well, really, what are they going to do if someone else hogs all the DU? They can't do much if they don't have minions to boss around. But this also represents the issue that there's no reason whatsoever not to have a summoner. If you don't use a summoner, you're cutting your effective defenses in half. Not even having the summoner DLC basically restricts someone from having an entirely separate DU pool available to them.

I'd love to see DU completely redone in the sequel. I'd love it if a player had their own individual DU pool which can be used for summoner minions or defenses. Maybe put in a scaling penalty based on number of players, but make it so that having 4 players means more overall DU than being solo?

Like. . Being solo, 100 DU. An additional person joins, you both get 70 DU at a total of 140. Three people means 60 DU, 180 total. And four people could remain at 60 DU for a total of 240. Being with four people means you have more than two times the DUs, which could actually excuse throwing in doubling the number of big baddies that you're up against.

This is simply one of a trove of ideas I'm sure others could offer as to how to handle DU in the new game. It's a good opportunity to improve on the few weaknesses that the other game has. Also, I'd love to see the summoner in DD2. I just don't want the summoner to be a standard, basically to the point that not having a summoner is silly.

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Surely this would make it silly easy though. Sure enemies scale up with more players, because you have more players in DD1. But having those extra players allows you to cover so much more ground and make more efficient use of the DU you have due to variation in stats and heros that can be used at once.

Makes sense to me how it works in DD1, the only thing that I feel is wrong about how it works in DD1 is that fact that using a summoner makes everything so much easier giving you double the DU effectively for free.

I like it how it is it has more emphasis on playing together rather than having 3 afks and getting easy wins with more DU :0

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Surely this would make it silly easy though. Sure enemies scale up with more players, because you have more players in DD1. But having those extra players allows you to cover so much more ground and make more efficient use of the DU you have due to variation in stats and heros that can be used at once.

Makes sense to me how it works in DD1, the only thing that I feel is wrong about how it works in DD1 is that fact that using a summoner makes everything so much easier giving you double the DU effectively for free.

I like it how it is it has more emphasis on playing together rather than having 3 afks and getting easy wins with more DU :0


Dividing DU among people means more people will be busy setting up towers. It'd also allow more versatility in the kind of classes you can use, since more people means more overall DU, which means more classes can lay neat toys down.

Currently as it stands, 4 people in one game means at the most 25-30 DU per person. This isn't a lot, especially considering that maps (nightmare in particular) become considerably harder when more people are present. The only real reason you need four people in a game (and I do mean need) is to lay down a few traps a bit faster so you can beat the time limit.

But they won't be doing that, because player W has the best defenses, and thus player W should be placing the defenses. If play X lays down a single tower, they're wasting player W's DU. There's only so much DU, and player W doesn't need player X, Y, and Z wasting it on their weak towers.

See the problem?

Now, give player W a little less DU, but give X, Y, and Z, a -ton- more DU. Suddenly it doesn't matter so much if player W has the absolute strongest defenses because X, Y, and Z can place a gob of defenses too. Now everyone's getting involved.

It feels like a team effort.

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Dividing DU among people means more people will be busy setting up towers. It'd also allow more versatility in the kind of classes you can use, since more people means more overall DU, which means more classes can lay neat toys down.

Currently as it stands, 4 people in one game means at the most 25-30 DU per person. This isn't a lot, especially considering that maps (nightmare in particular) become considerably harder when more people are present. The only real reason you need four people in a game (and I do mean need) is to lay down a few traps a bit faster so you can beat the time limit.

But they won't be doing that, because player W has the best defenses, and thus player W should be placing the defenses. If play X lays down a single tower, they're wasting player W's DU. There's only so much DU, and player W doesn't need player X, Y, and Z wasting it on their weak towers.

See the problem?

Now, give player W a little less DU, but give X, Y, and Z, a -ton- more DU. Suddenly it doesn't matter so much if player W has the absolute strongest defenses because X, Y, and Z can place a gob of defenses too. Now everyone's getting involved.

It feels like a team effort.
but then people will just bring on afks to bring more DU

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but then people will just bring on afks to bring more DU


They would have to build with those afks and even then the aim of the game is still reached, the game gets harder due to more players and you get more defenses to compensate. All that needs to be done to balance is to make it impossible to have overpowered stats.

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They would have to build with those afks and even then the aim of the game is still reached, the game gets harder due to more players and you get more defenses to compensate. All that needs to be done to balance is to make it impossible to have overpowered stats.


Right. If someone decides to bring along 'afks', the afks would still need to contribute under this system. If anything it'd discourage having afk players since more activity would be required of all players in order to build a solid defense against what's to come. Otherwise the one player who's letting the others afk is working with less DU than they would if they were soloing.

I'm going to mark the biggest disadvantage of this though. This isn't to say I disagree with the idea. I still fully support my idea.

The disadvantage is it'd make level disparity a bit more broad. A level 1 grouping with a level 80+ would be expected to contribute since they have a separate DU pool which had taken away from the 80's pool. This means that the level 1 is less likely to come across an opportunity to be power leveled by a level 80.

Is this bad? It's up to opinion really. A level 1 can miss out on a lot of the experience (no pun intended) with a quick power level. on the other hand, a level 1 can jump right to a level where they can contribute to the efforts of the level 80 at the very least by hitting things with their weapon.

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but then people will just bring on afks to bring more DU


They would have to build with those afks and even then the aim of the game is still reached, the game gets harder due to more players and you get more defenses to compensate. All that needs to be done to balance is to make it impossible to have overpowered stats.


Your both also assuming Split Screen is making a return feature. This wont be for console anymore and Split Screen on PC has been horrificly abused to generate more cash money for a single player than they should make. NMHC Rampart Survival can easily earn you 50 mill per wave for example. With my extra controllers I boost myself to 200 mill per wave.. and NEED IT. The player stores are SO OVERPRICED, and it's because of the same tactic of AFK mobs I need to do to keep up with just buying what I need for new characters.

For all we know Split Screen wont make it in DD2, as it just helped ruin the PC economy in DD1 and rarely served purpose beyond that.

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Your both also assuming Split Screen is making a return feature. This wont be for console anymore and Split Screen on PC has been horrificly abused to generate more cash money for a single player than they should make. NMHC Rampart Survival can easily earn you 50 mill per wave for example. With my extra controllers I boost myself to 200 mill per wave.. and NEED IT. The player stores are SO OVERPRICED, and it's because of the same tactic of AFK mobs I need to do to keep up with just buying what I need for new characters. For all we know Split Screen wont make it in DD2, as it just helped ruin the PC economy in DD1 and rarely served purpose beyond that.

There are loads of people who play local multiplayer, using split-screen, on the PC version. Not only on small monitors, but often on their TVs. Most modern graphics cards have HDMI out. And if not, many modern HDTVs have PC-input. Assuming the game engine can support it, they have no reason to exclude this feature from the sequel. It would be a blow to the folks that are into local MP.

4P split-screen farming was not the cause of the first game's economy being so irreparably broken; nowhere near it. That was to blame on mana hackers, item hackers, various things related to the setup and functionality of shops, etc. Things which have been explained in great detail, previously, and are not worth my elaborating on now.

Split-screen farming was perfectly fair because, in order to keep up with the increased mob count/strength, you needed higher stats. Being able to clear a stage solo didn't mean being able to do so 4P. And once you had the stats to split-farm it, it saved you time. Doing something you could have done anyway, and would have done regardless, just mildly faster.

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There are loads of people who play local multiplayer, using split-screen, on the PC version. Not only on small monitors, but often on their TVs. Most modern graphics cards have HDMI out. And if not, many modern HDTVs have PC-input. Assuming the game engine can support it, they have no reason to exclude this feature from the sequel. It would be a blow to the folks that are into local MP.

4P split-screen farming was not the cause of the first game's economy being so irreparably broken; nowhere near it. That was to blame on mana hackers, item hackers, various things related to the setup and functionality of shops, etc. Things which have been explained in great detail, previously, and are not worth my elaborating on now.

Split-screen farming was perfectly fair because, in order to keep up with the increased mob count/strength, you needed higher stats. Being able to clear a stage solo didn't mean being able to do so 4P. And once you had the stats to split-farm it, it saved you time. Doing something you could have done anyway, and would have done regardless, just mildly faster.


Oh, I take back what I said then. Though off-topic, I am curious. While I wont ask you to explain the whole thing, but if there are any particular thread on the subject where others have gone in depth already, I'd find it an interesting read. I really enjoy DD1 despite the faults it has and is my most played Steam game, so I enjoy learning all I can about it. Currently searching for economy related threads now on my own to educate myself further.

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Surely this would make it silly easy though. Sure enemies scale up with more players, because you have more players in DD1. But having those extra players allows you to cover so much more ground and make more efficient use of the DU you have due to variation in stats and heros that can be used at once.

Makes sense to me how it works in DD1, the only thing that I feel is wrong about how it works in DD1 is that fact that using a summoner makes everything so much easier giving you double the DU effectively for free.

I like it how it is it has more emphasis on playing together rather than having 3 afks and getting easy wins with more DU :0


i majority agree with this response, but i will say, the idea of bonus DU for additional players was something i felt could have been used in DD. ive said it time and time again, bringing in additional players into a game is in no way beneficial unless you are botting 3 additional characters for additional loot or rewards. the amount of additional goblin copters, djinns, and ogres that come in with additional players just does not justify the extra players. even something as simple as an extra %total DU per player would be nice.

responding directly to the OP, while i agree with your sentiment, your philosophy is a bit off. additional DU will almost certainly NOT result in more players building in a given map. it will just result in the best builder having more DU to use in a map. the nature of the game is that it does not really afford experimentation (at least not in nightmare mode with DD1). trying to synchronize 4 players to build specific things in specific areas at specific locations to make sure that it is far enough away to reach this with out triggering those in that amount of time is just too unrealistic. granted, in survival that is much less of an issue, but even then, unless you have 4 friends that all have the same or extremely similar stats, one person is going to handle the build. thats just the way it is.

as for the summoner, i pray to jeremy that they will continue to have their own separate minion units. the reason being is because it makes the game entirely more manageable, and that did more to create situations where one player builds this and the other player builds that than anything else in the game's existence. also, the game was still quite difficult with the addition of the summoner, and the level of enjoyment many people got out of how the summoner worked in the game is far too high to remove in a sequel. the same can be said of the EV and buff beams (and proton beams. i friggin love those things). changing this for the sequel would not be a wise move.

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You know what I really can't understand? People assuming DD2 coop is just going to pick up where DD1 left off with respect to stats, enemies, balance, or anything like that. DD1 is broken and has been for a dammed long time.
[c3;866492']as for the summoner, i pray to jeremy that they will continue to have their own separate minion units. the reason being is because it makes the game entirely more manageable, and that did more to create situations where one player builds this and the other player builds that than anything else in the game's existence. also, the game was still quite difficult with the addition of the summoner, and the level of enjoyment many people got out of how the summoner worked in the game is far too high to remove in a sequel. the same can be said of the EV and buff beams (and proton beams. i friggin love those things). changing this for the sequel would not be a wise move.

Summoner isn't silly OP just because of his seperate unit pool. The fact his minions are hard counters to all 4 new enemies (no radius limit and minimal slow from webbing, interrupt djinn and sharken, aren't chargeable by sharken, and ignore chopper flares) goes beyond the realm of ridiculous and just makes it stupid (they're also the root cause of so called afk builds, towers that can rapidly heal themselves...). On top of that, allocating DU chunks to certain towers just means that you are disadvantaged by not using those towers. With as many characters as DD2 has, if summoner had a different pool it'd likely be shared with a few other characters.

Except, if we have 1 seperate pool, why not 2, if 2 why not 4 (blah, blah, blah)
Here come play Deeper Wells, you have 60DU. Except: 20 of those are reserved for towers that can't deal damage, only 10 can be used for projectile towers, 15 reserved for melee towers, and another 15 just for walls.

I know that example is a huge exageration, but anytime you start dividing it all up, you limit what people can do with their overall build. Especially when you consider that balance has to consider the full amount of defences available to a defender (look at almost all maps post summoner release). Dividing the basic resource up like that forces people down a specific path, and building in DD was originally about combining everything in the way you see fit, and personally I'd rather see that come back.

Again, buff beams, the most over-powered tower ever introduced (although, close second would have to go to the ensnare aura). It kind of worked at the time of its introduction, but at the same time, that thing is broken beyond belief. Why would anyone want to see the return of a tower which basically says "you must use me" is beyond my understanding. I wouldn't mind seeing the concept return (a tower that buffs other towers), but not in the ridiculous state anyone thinks of it...

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You know what I really can't understand? People assuming DD2 coop is just going to pick up where DD1 left off with respect to stats, enemies, balance, or anything like that. DD1 is broken and has been for a dammed long time.

Summoner isn't silly OP just because of his seperate unit pool. The fact his minions are hard counters to all 4 new enemies (no radius limit and minimal slow from webbing, interrupt djinn and sharken, aren't chargeable by sharken, and ignore chopper flares) goes beyond the realm of ridiculous and just makes it stupid (they're also the root cause of so called afk builds, towers that can rapidly heal themselves...). On top of that, allocating DU chunks to certain towers just means that you are disadvantaged by not using those towers. With as many characters as DD2 has, if summoner had a different pool it'd likely be shared with a few other characters.

Except, if we have 1 seperate pool, why not 2, if 2 why not 4 (blah, blah, blah)
Here come play Deeper Wells, you have 60DU. Except: 20 of those are reserved for towers that can't deal damage, only 10 can be used for projectile towers, 15 reserved for melee towers, and another 15 just for walls.

I know that example is a huge exageration, but anytime you start dividing it all up, you limit what people can do with their overall build. Especially when you consider that balance has to consider the full amount of defences available to a defender (look at almost all maps post summoner release). Dividing the basic resource up like that forces people down a specific path, and building in DD was originally about combining everything in the way you see fit, and personally I'd rather see that come back.

Again, buff beams, the most over-powered tower ever introduced (although, close second would have to go to the ensnare aura). It kind of worked at the time of its introduction, but at the same time, that thing is broken beyond belief. Why would anyone want to see the return of a tower which basically says "you must use me" is beyond my understanding. I wouldn't mind seeing the concept return (a tower that buffs other towers), but not in the ridiculous state anyone thinks of it...


You win the Internet.

I can not echo this post enough. It is just so much awesome correctness it's not funny.

:)

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[c3;866492']

responding directly to the OP, while i agree with your sentiment, your philosophy is a bit off. additional DU will almost certainly NOT result in more players building in a given map. it will just result in the best builder having more DU to use in a map. the nature of the game is that it does not really afford experimentation (at least not in nightmare mode with DD1). trying to synchronize 4 players to build specific things in specific areas at specific locations to make sure that it is far enough away to reach this with out triggering those in that amount of time is just too unrealistic. granted, in survival that is much less of an issue, but even then, unless you have 4 friends that all have the same or extremely similar stats, one person is going to handle the build. thats just the way it is.

as for the summoner, i pray to jeremy that they will continue to have their own separate minion units. the reason being is because it makes the game entirely more manageable, and that did more to create situations where one player builds this and the other player builds that than anything else in the game's existence. also, the game was still quite difficult with the addition of the summoner, and the level of enjoyment many people got out of how the summoner worked in the game is far too high to remove in a sequel. the same can be said of the EV and buff beams (and proton beams. i friggin love those things). changing this for the sequel would not be a wise move.


You've actually failed to understand my post.

1) The lead builder will not have more DU. They will have less, but other players will have an equal share of DU.
One player = 100 DU
Two players = 80 DU per player. But, they can't tap into each other's DU. They use their own DU independantly of each other.
Etc.

2) Also, under this system, summoners -would- have a separate DU pool, because all players get a separate DU pool regardless of class. The summoners will continue to have their minions to themselves. In fact, each summoner will have his or her own separate DU pool. So now more than one person can play a summoner!

I'm seeing a tendency of people presuming I mean just increase the DU cap with all players. That's not what I'm saying at all. Please read a bit more carefully.

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So what happens if you use all 100 DU and then a friend joins, dropping your cap to 70? This also doesn't address the issue of people who like playing DPS heroes. Sometimes you don't want to have to build towers, you just want to go in and beat the crap out of enemies. This forces everyone to contribute as a tower builder. Additionally, it means you can't join games until you get a leveled tower character. I know I leveled a dps character first, and only later once I started getting mythics did I really start to deck out my tower characters. That would have taken much longer if I had to keep a variety of tower characters built so that I could contribute in any game I joined and not be kicked.

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So what happens if you use all 100 DU and then a friend joins, dropping your cap to 70? This also doesn't address the issue of people who like playing DPS heroes. Sometimes you don't want to have to build towers, you just want to go in and beat the crap out of enemies. This forces everyone to contribute as a tower builder. Additionally, it means you can't join games until you get a leveled tower character. I know I leveled a dps character first, and only later once I started getting mythics did I really start to deck out my tower characters. That would have taken much longer if I had to keep a variety of tower characters built so that I could contribute in any game I joined and not be kicked.


The first part is true. It'd be tricky to balance players coming into and leaving a game. But, as far as being a DPS hero goes, well. . Look at DPS heroes in DD1. They don't need to build towers. They swing their weapons around and kill everything ahead of them. They're able to completely dominate a lane on their own, without towers. If a player decides to play a face roll DPS hero over a tower builder, I still think it would be viable. One DPS hero with the works can easily clear out 1-2 lanes with minimal effort. I know I do on mine.

Hell, as it stands, one person builds towers and three people either afk or do DPS. Do you think that's better?

So, in the case four people play and one wants to be a DPS. The other three players still have three people's worth of DU to work with. If one person is alone on DU and three play DPS, that's a lot of DPS running around and killing things. They probably don't even need as much DU to keep up with all the killing.

But of course that'd depend largely on the way DPS is balanced to towers in DD2.

I totally agree that balancing incoming/leaving players would be difficult though.

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You know what I really can't understand? People assuming DD2 coop is just going to pick up where DD1 left off with respect to stats, enemies, balance, or anything like that. DD1 is broken and has been for a dammed long time.

Summoner isn't silly OP just because of his seperate unit pool. The fact his minions are hard counters to all 4 new enemies (no radius limit and minimal slow from webbing, interrupt djinn and sharken, aren't chargeable by sharken, and ignore chopper flares) goes beyond the realm of ridiculous and just makes it stupid (they're also the root cause of so called afk builds, towers that can rapidly heal themselves...). On top of that, allocating DU chunks to certain towers just means that you are disadvantaged by not using those towers. With as many characters as DD2 has, if summoner had a different pool it'd likely be shared with a few other characters.

Except, if we have 1 seperate pool, why not 2, if 2 why not 4 (blah, blah, blah)
Here come play Deeper Wells, you have 60DU. Except: 20 of those are reserved for towers that can't deal damage, only 10 can be used for projectile towers, 15 reserved for melee towers, and another 15 just for walls.

I know that example is a huge exageration, but anytime you start dividing it all up, you limit what people can do with their overall build. Especially when you consider that balance has to consider the full amount of defences available to a defender (look at almost all maps post summoner release). Dividing the basic resource up like that forces people down a specific path, and building in DD was originally about combining everything in the way you see fit, and personally I'd rather see that come back.

Again, buff beams, the most over-powered tower ever introduced (although, close second would have to go to the ensnare aura). It kind of worked at the time of its introduction, but at the same time, that thing is broken beyond belief. Why would anyone want to see the return of a tower which basically says "you must use me" is beyond my understanding. I wouldn't mind seeing the concept return (a tower that buffs other towers), but not in the ridiculous state anyone thinks of it...


i think you are taking liberties with assumption with this post more than i am with my initial response. i never said i hoped that DD2 was just DD1 with more characters and DU. what i said was i hope the functionality of the summoner remains. these two things are not synonymous.

even before summoners and EVs were added, DD was in a state of "afk or die." in nightmare mode you were forced to adopt that playstyle because all the various multipliers added with it broke the original DD code, and once you got to a point where you could do nightmare mode, all other modes were afk cakewalks. actually, let me change this. after wave 14 the game was afk or die.

pre-wave 14 is the only time players actually "play" DD, because you have things to do then. you still have to build, you have to collect mana, you have to upgrade, most enemies are still in the realm of killable without instantly killing you, and in the case of all the new DLC maps, you fight the boss on wave 14. if you go beyond wave 14, you are doing survival, and no matter what you want to contest or proclaim, survival may as well be retitled "afk for uselessness." there is no reason to do it because it is boring and the return for the time investment is so low that there is almost no reason to do it other than to say you did. this too was true before the summoner and EV came along.

now, fast forward to now and how this relates to this thread: yes, DD is broken, but it is not because of the summoner, the ev, or how MU/DU are split up. it is because players are forced to max themselves out to deal with the maxed out enemies and insanely restrictive build timers and make or break it build requirements. the formula is broken, not the variables.

so yeah, give me my archer and spider minions and buff and proton beams.

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You've actually failed to understand my post.

1) The lead builder will not have more DU. They will have less, but other players will have an equal share of DU.
One player = 100 DU
Two players = 80 DU per player. But, they can't tap into each other's DU. They use their own DU independantly of each other.
Etc.

2) Also, under this system, summoners -would- have a separate DU pool, because all players get a separate DU pool regardless of class. The summoners will continue to have their minions to themselves. In fact, each summoner will have his or her own separate DU pool. So now more than one person can play a summoner!

I'm seeing a tendency of people presuming I mean just increase the DU cap with all players. That's not what I'm saying at all. Please read a bit more carefully.

So basically I'd always want to kick worse equipped players than I am alongside lower levels because they end up hurting me big time?

I mean your idea would make the game way easier of everyone had a good equipped char who brings differen stuff to the table. For example two decent equipped players would end up with an combined 160 defense units making the game far easier.

On the other hand, one good equipped player and for example a bad equipped friend would end up with effectively 80 defense unit, while every additional player who has lower stats than the host only ends up further weakening the defense.

So in effect, you'd like to punish people for playing together with "not very well" equipped players and to give them even more of an reason to rid themselves of these if they want to succeed?

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The only way I would enjoy something implemented like this is if it were only for very specific, very large maps. Then it might be useful. Otherwise it would be more of a hassle than its worth. You would essentially force certain people to play solo because they don't want the decreased DU in their builds and force those that group to have to coordinate with people who either have poor stats and can't contribute or are unwilling to build and contribute in a way that supports the rest of the team. If it was a toggle-on/off option when setting up games, it could also be viable.

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What if... there was no DU, and the mana you gain each wave is balanced around that? It would force you to continue strengthening your defenses throughout the entire game. With DU, at some point you simply can't build anymore, and it becomes rather dull until you reach the next point where you have to actually do things with your character in order to not get overrun.

Just throwing it out there, maybe people hate the idea of not having a cap, but I think it would keep the entire game more interesting, instead of just the last 3~4 waves.

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Rather than messing around with DU or other game mechanics, why not force more focus on cooperate building by limiting Hero switching ingame?

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Rather than messing around with DU or other game mechanics, why not force more focus on cooperate building by limiting Hero switching ingame?


Many people will still want to play the game solo, with many different heroes.
"Limiting" hero switching on a couple maps, and sharing DU pool on a couple other maps may force people to play multi players on those map. Forcing any of those on all maps will make players unhappy.
Maybe the "no switching heroes" can be an option like hardcore, too?

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Rather than messing around with DU or other game mechanics, why not force more focus on cooperate building by limiting Hero switching ingame?

Bad idea, very bad idea. It would force people to play co-op and not single by inconveniencing them a lot. It would keep them from doing a great many things solo. Might end up with them looking for a decent/similar equipped group for longer than they're able to actually play the game.

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So basically I'd always want to kick worse equipped players than I am alongside lower levels because they end up hurting me big time?

I mean your idea would make the game way easier of everyone had a good equipped char who brings differen stuff to the table. For example two decent equipped players would end up with an combined 160 defense units making the game far easier.

On the other hand, one good equipped player and for example a bad equipped friend would end up with effectively 80 defense unit, while every additional player who has lower stats than the host only ends up further weakening the defense.

So in effect, you'd like to punish people for playing together with "not very well" equipped players and to give them even more of an reason to rid themselves of these if they want to succeed?


Well to be fair, stats weren't really that outrageous until Nightmare came about. A character with 200ish in all their tower stats did fairly well on Insane with tactical placement. So they could probably group with other players in the 100-200 range and everything would work fine.

Currently as it stands, 'not very well geared' between 60 and 70 is upwards to a 300 or more point difference, and 70+ reaches out to the thousands. There are some maps that can't be done, at least not easily, if you don't have 2.5k in all your tower stats.

So yeah, that's a pretty big divide between 'newbies' and 'pro players'.

Balancing gear wise was perfectly fair before Nightmare came about. I'd rather they didn't make a 'Nightmare' difficulty again.

In either case, I like the idea of having it balanced by mana instead of DU. Maybe instead of having monsters drop mana, have mana given to players at the end of each wave? Then they have to figure out how to use that mana the most efficiently.

But players get kicked if their gear isn't up to snuff anyway. So what you're suggesting is already happening in DD1.

Edit: Also, I highly disagree with limiting heroes. Being able to mix/match heroes was an awesome part of the first one. In DD2, we'll be able to do that with 24 different heroes! I wouldn't know where to begin! The variety will be fun to play with. So please keep this as a feature of Dungeon Defenders.

Edit 2: There's also the idea of having a 'circular economy'. In this case, players can take the mana they've earned and invest it on defenses with the hopes that they'll earn more mana in the long run.

So, players earn mana at the end of each wave. They can then tap into some of the mana they've earned in prior games to expand on this further, to a cap most likely. This allows them to fortify further if needed, but at a risk of failing and losing the mana they've invested in their defenses.

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Well to be fair, stats weren't really that outrageous until Nightmare came about. A character with 200ish in all their tower stats did fairly well on Insane with tactical placement. So they could probably group with other players in the 100-200 range and everything would work fine.

200 ish works well because that exceeds the pre-super loot stats. 200 was wtf uber way back at the initial release. If you had that sort of ridiculous stat, you'd look at people with 100-150 the same as people in the 6+k range look at those who only "scrape" 3-4k.

What Deleth says is absolutely correct, a mechanic such as dividing up the DU as presented in the OP will push people who are at endgame even further towards doing everything solo and kicking anyone who isn't within ~90% of your stats

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200 ish works well because that exceeds the pre-super loot stats. 200 was wtf uber way back at the initial release. If you had that sort of ridiculous stat, you'd look at people with 100-150 the same as people in the 6+k range look at those who only "scrape" 3-4k.

What Deleth says is absolutely correct, a mechanic such as dividing up the DU as presented in the OP will push people who are at endgame even further towards doing everything solo and kicking anyone who isn't within ~90% of your stats

I have only returned recently and am currently around 4k stats. However what I saw from public so far is that I am already way above most people I meet who're gearing up legitimately. So with people thousands of stats ahead of my at the moment I would still be forced to kick out the vast mayority of players because they were to drag me down.

I am running games of Tavern Defense Nightmare Pure Strat to level chars and I usually run them open for example with no level range, so people can just come in and level some of their chars and even newer ones can. Just like I usually run kings game nightmare/tavern defense nightmare campaign with no level cap so newer players can also join in.

This change would stop me from doing that.

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