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Jazzik777

Proper Cooperative Building

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I'd like to see a game mode where character swapping cannot take place more than once. I'd actually like to see this as the main coop mode but I cannot see that happening.

The idea being that people would perfect one builder class and use that for the entire map, perhaps being able to switch to a DPS once all the building has been completed. This would encourage working with people using other classes to overcome maps in a cooperative manner.

As it stands currently you usually end up with the person with the best builder stats across the most characters (normally the person with the most time invested). Doing all the building while the other players fetch the mana and then stand around waiting to upgrade.

This is not really cooperative play, its more 3 people being carried by an experienced builder and collecting loot at the end.

I play with a couple of friends, and my gear is much better than theirs. As a result I do all of the building and while I don't mind I am conscious they aren't getting much fun out of the game and not really learning how to beat the maps themselves. I understand I could let them build but at the same time this is less than optimal, and while there is a better option it seems a good idea to take it.

Alternatively, I can loan some of my gear to friends to use to share the effort but thats never going to happen in a public game.

Thoughts?

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I don't see the way it was as a bad thing. When I played I played with 1 good friend. All of the builder gear that dropped we gave to his builders. This does not mean I did not help as we both came up with and perfected the builds needed for each map. I just had no desire to do the actual building, I would much rather theorycraft the build. This may just be because we were playing mostly on the new harder maps and not much on easy farmable maps.

For us it was a much better solution and less grinding to have 1 person collect the builder gear and make the perfect builders. This also meant that I got first pick of all the dps gear haha.

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i don't feel limiting character switching is a way to solve this. currently in DD, sometimes when i switch to a character, the game pulls a stupid and switches to the first character on the list, instead of the one i clearly had selected.

and being able to change characters a lot, makes sense. how are people supposed to work together and decide who should build what when everyone has a set of builders? if you can't all switch and compare to decide who has the most favorable towers of each type for the current situation if you can't swap?

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i don't feel limiting character switching is a way to solve this. currently in DD, sometimes when i switch to a character, the game pulls a stupid and switches to the first character on the list, instead of the one i clearly had selected.

and being able to change characters a lot, makes sense. how are people supposed to work together and decide who should build what when everyone has a set of builders? if you can't all switch and compare to decide who has the most favorable towers of each type for the current situation if you can't swap?


Thats not the game pulling a stupid :) I used to have it too now I'm just a bit more methodical when selecting.

How about before the round starts, everyone gets a character select menu, where they lock in their builder and their dps. (similar to League) This would give people time to discuss who is gunna take what? This screen could even list the players stats and highlight the best of each class in green.

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I came to enjoy min/max'ing all my characters in DD1, but I ultimately think that char swapping in-game is a bad idea. I'd rather not see it in the sequel and here's why:

Being able to character switch during a game (build mode) too often puts classes/heroes at an imbalance. You will always have the character class that is unwanted/not as good as another class and never sees the light of day except to build; or when some player just wants to switch it up for once. When you are forced to build and play as a single character, you will be more dependent on having good stats to build and to fight. Yes, this requires more stats spread and what not, but at least that class actually is part of the game except for switching in, building, switching out. That's not a class, it's a tool...

The whole active/inactive stat affecting damage just made it a part of the game to max builder stats and uses active heroes to play. But if DD2 isn't built around supporting this, things can be balanced differently and spread stats accordingly to be able to get good towers stats as well as be useful in combat.

In a cooperative game, it should be beneficial to have multiple, "different" classes and excel in the game using a setup that mixes various elements. As the DD1 stands, it just kept going in the direction of solo play being easier, except in cases of build-time limitations or difficult bosses in some cases. Solo play is obviously great, but I think a co-op multiplayer game should focus on MP game mechanics. There are plenty of single player tower defense games out there. Let's see more focus on MP! :D

Let's see more/seperate/better quality rewards in MP, and get rid of split screen on PC ;)

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Being able to character switch during a game (build mode) too often puts classes/heroes at an imbalance. You will always have the character class that is unwanted/not as good as another class and never sees the light of day except to build; or when some player just wants to switch it up for once. When you are forced to build and play as a single character, you will be more dependent on having good stats to build and to fight. Yes, this requires more stats spread and what not, but at least that class actually is part of the game except for switching in, building, switching out. That's not a class, it's a tool...


The problem stemmed from the fact that the way heroes and defenses worked, nobody could be really effective at more than one thing. If you're built to build defenses, then you were largely pointless for defending them. If you were build to defend your defenses, then you were entirely pointless at building them.

Not in and of itself, a problem, but the game rapidly accelerated to the point where you had almost no choice in the matter, you *had* to have somebody out to defend your defenses or they'd be overrun and you'd lose. Even Mythical Realtime Strategist acknowledged that point. Builders, after everything is built (or you run out of time to build), stop being useful.

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the way it currently is is better. people that want to solo can under the current system, and that is a huge thing to have in any sort of game, in particular a game like this. also, changing it would actually encourage further separation in player base because it immediately makes a divide between those that have good stats and those that dont. this existed for far too long in dungeon defenders, and it does not need to be perpetuated.

further, people that had good friends or had builds that were strong enough with just a few defenses usually are more than happy to let other people fill up the spare DU anyway, so all you are effectively doing by trying to champion a change like this is force people to rely on other people not being stupid. never a good idea.

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It may feel wrong sometimes to have one person do full build, but:

- People wanted to actually win NM survival and it's not possible with random towers scattered all over the map. The build must be perfect for the purpose.
- Some people actually don't want to build at all. Sometimes I build , sometimes I just join in with barb and expect the host to do the job for me while I mess around. Can't take this away from me!

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it's totally preposterous to suggest that players should only be able to do a specific thing, and not have the option to change your strategies if the situation changes.
limiting one person in what they can do, limits everyone in what they can do.

as already stated, if one person is more limited, then skilled players will just simply not play with less skilled players, because of the liability of having those less skilled players totally ruining your game.

in Dungeon Defenders i already don't play some things in public matches, specifically things that i don't know for absolute certainty that i can 100% solo it, collecting mana, build, DPS, and anything else that may be required to complete the map.
i just don't want to take the risk of letting someone who i do not know the extent of their skill and knowledge have control over success or failure.

if you don't agree with me, i think the perfect example would be for you to play World Of Tanks. play some public matches at medium or higher tiers where teamwork and reliable players is critical. but, since it's random matchmaked public matches, you'll find teams steamrolling or getting steamrolled because the most important tanks on your team were really good, or were worse than a 4 year old playing and just got totally wrecked despite having vehicles vastly superior to the enemy vehicles they are engaging.

balancing is great and all, but when you balance too much, you just cause most of your players to get bored and leave from not being able to succeed enough to learn anything about the game to become better players.

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What I'd like to see is more active gameplay. Most higher tier games in DD require you to have good builders which after building the defences afk the rest of the game.

Which im my opinion makes Jester the best class in DD. When you play as jester you need to be almost contantly active by building towers during wave, moving towers to better position and using wheel to aid in different situations. All the hard work was rewarded with not having 2-4 different heroes for different buildings, I don't make other players feel completely useless (they can still build initial defences even when they have worse stats) and I don't have to grind 200 hours to get builder sets.

For exmaple if I had used my normal builders to make defences I could make a working setup in 2-3 waves and just repair and upgrade rest of 22 waves in order to beat the survival. When I play with my builder jester I'm building my defences still during wave 25.

If the game would require to be more active it would make having more than 1 hero to do all the building more appealing.

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I would have to agree that the design seems a bit strange towards later levels. you will have one char for all the building and rest dps, while i have no issues with this i do think there can be a better method or mechanics to make having a builder during waves more useful/wanted purposeful.

a couple of ideas off the top of my head would be set stationary neutral towers that can be built/repaired/summoned During the waves, only if you have a high enough combined Tower Stats on the char. These towers could do a wide range of things like more damage, provide crowd control, make minions weaker?

a benefit to having a builder out could be an increase in drop chances, so why not combine the neutral tower idea with this, and if the neutral tower is built drops have better % (this still leaves the builder not doing too much)

i believe the core issue is that once all towers are built and DU is maxed then a builder has no real purpose besides upgrading quicker then dps, or rebuilding in the event of failure. there should be something a builder can do during waves that a dps cannot do as good, but not be detrimental to gameplay.

SuperCharge - Similar to the gaurdians, allowing the champions to cast Supercharge, granting all of their tower stats to be applied ontop of the towers base stats, (if same builder x2 stats during casting). to balance this it could be a aoe centred around the champion and increase with tower range maybe? costing scaling mana over time similar to the squire bloodrage.

Tower Control - Champions can take control of a single tower and have X amount of stats multiplied to tower making the tower more potent with builders.

All i can think of at the moment for ideas to have builders not twiddling thumbs during waves

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Attempts were made to make people coop more, and make solo play difficult. A huge map, or a map with too little build time to build everything solo helps toward this goal.
The result was that many people complained that they couldn't solo, and I didn't see anyone happy that they couldn't solo . So, it's probably a bad idea to forbid people to solo.

To encourage multiplayer, you can:
*Add extra benefit from multiple builders, like 5% more power if the harpoon and the buff beam are not build by the same player (I really mean player, not character, of course).

*Give 10 personal DU or MU to each players, that only them can use. With a map with 50 DU and 4 players, any of the 4 players can use up the 50 DU, but each has an extra 10, for a total of 90 DU. Every player has to build something valuable.

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What I'd like to see is more active gameplay. Most higher tier games in DD require you to have good builders which after building the defences afk the rest of the game.

Which im my opinion makes Jester the best class in DD. When you play as jester you need to be almost contantly active by building towers during wave, moving towers to better position and using wheel to aid in different situations. All the hard work was rewarded with not having 2-4 different heroes for different buildings, I don't make other players feel completely useless (they can still build initial defences even when they have worse stats) and I don't have to grind 200 hours to get builder sets.

For exmaple if I had used my normal builders to make defences I could make a working setup in 2-3 waves and just repair and upgrade rest of 22 waves in order to beat the survival. When I play with my builder jester I'm building my defences still during wave 25.

If the game would require to be more active it would make having more than 1 hero to do all the building more appealing.


I like the idea of being mroe active but some maps take forever and thats part of DD. So my suggestion is mini boss waves at certain waves of the map. That way you still have to do dps and can be afk and no focuesed for 30mins+ just to farm gear/items

As for co-op play, its very difficult to incorporate without changing the dynamics of the game most people have come to love. I would add this as a separate mode/challenge for each map. Such as a "2 player co-op" where each player can only switch between 2 characters. It becomes too difficult to coordinate with 4 players each doing something specific to make a successful build on difficult maps with low build time and 4 players on the internet (as Temple of Love and Greater Turkey Hunt players can attest to. So a separate challenge/mode allows the game to still be like DD1 and adds a co-op element (probably best for some achievement)

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-snip-
All i can think of at the moment for ideas to have builders not twiddling thumbs during waves


-snip-
To encourage multiplayer, you can:
*Add extra benefit from multiple builders, like 5% more power if the harpoon and the buff beam are not build by the same player (I really mean player, not character, of course).

*Give 10 personal DU or MU to each players, that only them can use. With a map with 50 DU and 4 players, any of the 4 players can use up the 50 DU, but each has an extra 10, for a total of 90 DU. Every player has to build something valuable.


these are actually some good points in these posts. i'm not sure how i feel about drop rates & all characters having a tower boost that only affects towers they've placed (only way to do that without people being able to exploit).
but, having minor improvements if more players place towers, and that personal DU is spectacular. solo you could in theory get away with using just that 50, but with more players you'll want the extra DU used.
however, the map must still be able to be done by one person. i've seen friends that play DD together where one person does all the building and has all the building characters, and the other players taking care of bosses, most of the upgrading, DPS, etc.
so just keep in mind those sort've situations where while it seems unlike teamwork, it infact is despite it looking like one person solo'ing with extra players.

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these are actually some good points in these posts. i'm not sure how i feel about drop rates & all characters having a tower boost that only affects towers they've placed (only way to do that without people being able to exploit).
but, having minor improvements if more players place towers, and that personal DU is spectacular. solo you could in theory get away with using just that 50, but with more players you'll want the extra DU used.
however, the map must still be able to be done by one person. i've seen friends that play DD together where one person does all the building and has all the building characters, and the other players taking care of bosses, most of the upgrading, DPS, etc.
so just keep in mind those sort've situations where while it seems unlike teamwork, it infact is despite it looking like one person solo'ing with extra players.


More or less, the best way to get multiple players working *and* building in concert is to have a global and personal pool of DU (because I would assume DD2's Summoner isn't going to get their own unit pool this time around). Everything built pulls from the small personal pool first, and then from the main pool once that's filled up. So when multiple players team up, they can each build *something*. Not a lot of something but something. It'd be a natural extension of how adding more players increases the total spawns and each spawn is also increased in strength.

Natural question though is how this would work with splitscreen if it's available in DD2.

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im not sure how a tower boost ability could be exploited, if it uses the characters tower stats for the boost and uses the highest aura within area. would prevent stacking of aura exploiting but yeah.
extra DU still has the issue that while you may have more to work with once its built your back to twiddling while repairing/upgrading the same as a dps (slightly Faster) though i do like the idea so everyone can build something.

would just be nice to have something more active to do as a builder during waves besides repair/upgrade

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No. I like to play solo, and if I can't use all the characters I have, then I can't exactly do much, can I? I play solo because I like to be able to pause. I do play with others, but not very often, and generally only with friends. I hate playing with randoms. I have met some cool people through random games, but I have met more vile people than nice people. Restricting character swapping is an illogical and stupid restriction. Not everyone wants to play with others, and not everyone has all the characters that may be needed for a build.

Rather, making gameplay require more activity from the player, in a manner that does not take away fun, is a far more intelligent way of resolving co-op issues.

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I like to solo and switch characters often so I don't think this is a good idea.

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