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So i am coming back from a long break and after looking at some setups people have posted it seems that all of them are using App towers over squire towers. So i am wondering should i change all my builder gear from my squire to my app or is the squire still the best builder for for damage?

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That's weird. I thought people preferred harps generally over app towers. I'd start with a count and then make an adept later or something. Monks are needed for auras and buff beams are amazing.

Pretty much in the end you need one of each character, if not more.

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App towers...


As sad as I am when I say this, they are utterly obsolete, It was my first builder/DPS hybrid (back when I didnt belive than more than 1 character was needed for the game... hehe, that was retarded).

I honestly cant see ANY use for them except maybe for the fact than they take less DU. Like, maybe a magic missile can help with anti air.... actually not, theres aura stacks for that... ugh...

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There are builds out there that use Apprentice Towers instead of Squire ones, but that's maybe 20% of them, most builds still use Harpoons a lot.

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The only viable thing that comes from apps is the fireball tower. And that's much later in the game, and for specific builds as mentioned. Almost all good builds use harps, auras, beams, and minions. Traps sometimes as well (gas mostly).

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I may not be the best player, nor the most advanced, but I'd like to share what I have found after all this back and forth nonsense.

app
MM - low dps for cost. not very good.
FB - Great dps + splash for cost. very good
LT - fun... but elec aura much better.
MW- replaced by EV then by minions. then by drains + wall.
ST - lol?

Count
Barricade - doesn't attack, just looks pretty ;)
bouncer - fun, but takes too much dmg for it's own.
Harp - excellent dmg for DU cost. very good.
BB - good... if you don't ever expect to go up hill. >.<
slicer - like bouncer but more costly.

SO, your question really boils down to FB vs POON.
FB vs poon = VERY VERY similar dps per DU.
but FB is splash, and poon = pierce.

Use poons for corridors / spots you can hit them in a line.
use FB when they move around corners / bunch up.

Now here is the kicker.
During late NM waves of survival and or whatnot, when trash is slaughtered elec auras, and ogres are pounding on your minions. FB starts to shine.
splash will hit several ogres, while poons will target their bellies, going over the other mobs.
making FB Much better than Poon.

TLDR: Imo App > count more specifically, FB > Poon.
Sadly ;

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I may not be the best player, nor the most advanced, but I'd like to share what I have found after all this back and forth nonsense.

app
MM - low dps for cost. not very good.
FB - Great dps + splash for cost. very good
LT - fun... but elec aura much better.
MW- replaced by EV then by minions. then by drains + wall.
ST - lol?

Count
Barricade - doesn't attack, just looks pretty ;)
bouncer - fun, but takes too much dmg for it's own.
Harp - excellent dmg for DU cost. very good.
BB - good... if you don't ever expect to go up hill. >.<
slicer - like bouncer but more costly.

SO, your question really boils down to FB vs POON.
FB vs poon = VERY VERY similar dps per DU.
but FB is splash, and poon = pierce.

Use poons for corridors / spots you can hit them in a line.
use FB when they move around corners / bunch up.

Now here is the kicker.
During late NM waves of survival and or whatnot, when trash is slaughtered elec auras, and ogres are pounding on your minions. FB starts to shine.
splash will hit several ogres, while poons will target their bellies, going over the other mobs.
making FB Much better than Poon.

TLDR: Imo App > count more specifically, FB > Poon.
Sadly ;



You also forgot a major con for Fireball towers....

LAG. LAG EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You also forgot a major con for Fireball towers....

LAG. LAG EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


lol? I don't seem to be having any lag when I get lots of fireballs.
maybe there is an option to turn your graphics usage down?

old school method : stare at wall. :)

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I am in that middle ground of branching into Nightmare from Insane, and I would have to agree with XrosstheUniverse for the most part. I think it's map-dependent more than anything. Harpoons are significantly stronger against air, as long as you place them properly. But in reality, the tower stats of each character are significantly more important than the actual tower. The App towers are fine if you're overkill in the stats required for the map, and don't feel like swapping back and forth quite as much when building. The aoe seems to be stronger than the pierce on certain maps (Such as MistyMire, especially when you get large quantities of spiders behind the walls). But for leveling and/or playing through, the squire offers a much more well-rounded approach. That said, for true building characters, always run female, learned that the hard way, since i didn't do too much reading when i first started the game.

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I am in that middle ground of branching into Nightmare from Insane, and I would have to agree with XrosstheUniverse for the most part. I think it's map-dependent more than anything. Harpoons are significantly stronger against air, as long as you place them properly. But in reality, the tower stats of each character are significantly more important than the actual tower. The App towers are fine if you're overkill in the stats required for the map, and don't feel like swapping back and forth quite as much when building. The aoe seems to be stronger than the pierce on certain maps (Such as MistyMire, especially when you get large quantities of spiders behind the walls). But for leveling and/or playing through, the squire offers a much more well-rounded approach. That said, for true building characters, always run female, learned that the hard way, since i didn't do too much reading when i first started the game.



yeah, air - in a line.
I've SORTA forgotten what it's like to play on lower levels (I only just did local from 70 into nm for funzies to see where that middle gap is)

Sumnus has it right. the stats make the character. but you DONT need overkill on the stats to see differences. My tests were done comparing fb to poon, with the squire having 100 t atk/spd higher. it's a ratio between dps and cost.

I played back when spiders ruled nm. I've not touched mysti in awhile for survival, do you really get that many spiders backed up? my elecs kill 90% of my trash issues.

I disagree with 'always run female builders' that LITTLE bit of speed is less important than knowing wtf you are doing. OR YOU WILL LOSE 50 DKP MINUS!
I use actually only males... save for the EV. and I don't have a problem.

BTW: Sumnus, where are you stat wise/ how far are you prodding into nm? I found CitC to be a very nice bridge.

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lol? I don't seem to be having any lag when I get lots of fireballs.
maybe there is an option to turn your graphics usage down?

old school method : stare at wall. :)


Yeah I am going to spend all the rest of my time playing a game staring a wall!!!

Sorry but what kind of solution is that LOL?

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Yeah I am going to spend all the rest of my time playing a game staring a wall!!!

Sorry but what kind of solution is that LOL?


It's a solution given when we don't wanna be a **** by saying you should get a better computer ;)
I also like to stare at walls when everything is upgraded in survival. (jungle maps seem to give me grief even without towers / mobs)
If your computer lags, and you don't want a new one, people do interesting things to speed it up.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FPS BABY! (music)*

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Thanks for the insight guys. Maybe i will change my gear over and try out the app. I can get to wave 25ish on NMHCAqua currently. Maybe the App will push me to wave 30.

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yeah, air - in a line.
I've SORTA forgotten what it's like to play on lower levels (I only just did local from 70 into nm for funzies to see where that middle gap is)

Sumnus has it right. the stats make the character. but you DONT need overkill on the stats to see differences. My tests were done comparing fb to poon, with the squire having 100 t atk/spd higher. it's a ratio between dps and cost.

I played back when spiders ruled nm. I've not touched mysti in awhile for survival, do you really get that many spiders backed up? my elecs kill 90% of my trash issues.

I disagree with 'always run female builders' that LITTLE bit of speed is less important than knowing wtf you are doing. OR YOU WILL LOSE 50 DKP MINUS!
I use actually only males... save for the EV. and I don't have a problem.

BTW: Sumnus, where are you stat wise/ how far are you prodding into nm? I found CitC to be a very nice bridge.


I suppose I could have worded my initial post differently, I didn't mean you needed overkill stats to see the difference, I meant that if you had overkill stats, you could use a less than perfect build and still be fine for finishing the map. (Less than perfect as in using something other than harpoons for anti-air, even though they specialize in killing things in a line, or something along those lines.)

As for stats, the toons that I have still in godly gear are in stats 120-250 for the most part, with little-no upgrades. The ones that I have mythic gear for are around 300-500 with really low resistances, and awful weapons. Working on finding the best way to farm up mana for upgrades since they are expensive when you're first starting.

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Squire towers have HP and do not cause your eyeballs to bleed (or as many FPS drops on non high end computers). Harpoon towers also have longer range and piercing (useful for killing a djinn or sharken that is behind a wall of ogres).

Fireball tower MASSIVELY outperforms the harpoon in survival at dealing with ogres on your wall (minions or physical beam), thanks to the splash. Apprentice towers are much more fun (and you can't use most of the squire towers in NM) to build with :P

So I like my squire for easy/campaign buids where I let the ogres walk up to and hit the towers or for places where I need piercing to deal with djinn/shark behind a massive enemy that would block projectiles. Otherwise apprentice towers pretty much win :D

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Harpoon towers also have longer range and piercing (useful for killing a djinn or sharken that is behind a wall of ogres).



This. I should have mentioned this in my reply, i'm glad someone remembered. The poons are more efficient at dealing with the Djinn, as well as the copters/wyvern types, even though the Djinn aren't necessarily in a linear pattern.

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Why no love for the lightning tower or deadly striker?

Both in the correct tactical placement are awesome.

Edit: forgot to add - why is the question based on one or the other... I use both and really love it when I can mix and match. Sky City box of doom with 2 harps and 2 fireballs.

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Harp vs: FB: If you look at all the statements in the whole community ... I'd say it boils down to personal preferences.

In my situation (chars between 2000 and 3000) I usually need those towers mainly against djinns, copters and to help fight ogres. My squire is stronger and I really like the greater range of his weapon, therefore I use him.

(Once in a while I even use the dst; it is the only tower that wastes no shot and shots "around" corners)

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(Once in a while I even use the dst; it is the only tower that wastes no shot and shots "around" corners)


While I agree than the DST is awesome, it *DOES* miss its shots every now and then, its not 100% accuarate (Yeah fail english I know)

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