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draemn

Sellers not selling: your thoughts?

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A lot of people deem it acceptable to not sell items they auction or to take higher bids after agreeing to auction the item? I know some people will be very passionate about this issue because they feel a moral/ethical view in one direction, so please try to keep it civil.

Here are some of my thoughts:

Let's stop doing "I won't sell if I don't like price." If you you know you won't sell it for less than 'xxx' value, start the minimum bid at xxx and price check if you need help determining a reasonable minimum bid value.

If you're going to auction an item, don't sell/trade it in a different deal during the auction. If you don't have bidders or you ask the bidders and they let you retract your item, cool.... But otherwise, honor your offer to sell an item to your bidders.

I've been guilt for it and I'm trying not to do it anymore, we should be better about setting general bid deadlines and make sure we sell items bid on. Again, if you're not going to like a low price, set a minimum bid price. Also, there should be some point where you tell the bidder they won and don't accept new bids on the item.

How do you think the best way to deal with winning bids? Should the seller always PM them or should the buyer also be responsible for checking threads they bid on?

A little off tangent: I also feel that sellers should use discretion with high end items and trading/selling to people with little to no forum posts who make massive bids.

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I completely forgot about a set i tried selling like a week ago. Never remembered until now. Idk know if i should even auction it now since the person who bid is probably forgot too

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Let's stop doing "I won't sell if I don't like price." If you you know you won't sell it for less than 'xxx' value, start the minimum bid at xxx and price check if you need help determining a reasonable minimum bid value.

1000x this. agree


If you're going to auction an item, don't sell/trade it in a different deal during the auction. If you don't have bidders or you ask the bidders and they let you retract your item, cool.... But otherwise, honor your offer to sell an item to your bidders.

not sure how sellers deal with this, but when i auction off a cube for example, this item does not "exist" to me until its sold. i just dont use it as currency for the time its auctioned. its "locked". however when i buy stuff, i bid 1 cube on many items and take the item i can get first. this can be bad because i need to withdraw on the other auctions.



How do you think the best way to deal with winning bids? Should the seller always PM them or should the buyer also be responsible for checking threads they bid on?

buyer should take the initiative IMO. altho this depends on whether a deadline is set or not.

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I think the seller should notify the winning bidder but the bidder should also be checking stuff they bid on anyway. I think the seller should have the right to not sell if they don't want to. I've done it a few times but I always gave the person a chance to renegotiate with me and work something out. And I typically don't put a minimum bid because I'm never sure of actual value and I just want to see how high it will go. But now I also just sell stuff as the auction goes and see how certain items do and just keep them up longer.

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Sorry I should of added that to the auction I forgot to add if I didnt deem the bid high enough I wouldn't sell it
sorry bro should of told you :/


Enough said

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personally, i do agree that we sellers should have the right to get the price they want, but i do agree that perhaps setting a decent minimum bid is probably the better way to go about doing this..it just gets to the ridiculous point that if there's no minimum bid, people will not stop bidding low amounts of mana increasing by maybe 1-2b increments, and that just gets on my nerves. :P

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The reason why I say I wont sell if I dont like the offer, even if I have a number already in my mind, is because I can change my mind.

If I valued an item at a cube but saw after a few days the highest bid was 3 MK2's, some times I wont sell it, but some times I will. I might decide I have no use for the item and I dont feel like sitting in a shop, so Ill just let it go. If I set a minimum bid, then Ive decided I get my exact price or nothing. I like flexibility personally, although I do understand and respect your opinion.

As far as doing other deals with the item while its in an auction, does that include buyouts if no buyout was mentioned in the post? Just curious.

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In my opinion, if you say "WANT TO AUCTION" that means you will auction the item off. Set a minimum bid if you want a minimum amount. If you want to sell, say "WANT TO SELL" and set a price. IF you want to "sell if it's worth enough" make a "PRICE CHECK" thread to see what people will offer and say you're checking price to auction.

/thought

As for minimum price to sell you can always put a suggestion saying: minimum bid is 2 mk2, may or may not sell if final price is < 3 mk2.

for the other deals, I mean you have an item up for auction and bids on it, but then you go to other threads and say "I'll trade you this item for what you're auctioning." You should let the owner know you're auctioning an item and let the people in your auction thread know that's the b/o for you.

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As for minimum price to sell you can always put a suggestion saying: minimum bid is 2 mk2, may or may not sell if final price is < 3 mk2.


I actually like this, I might try this with my next auction.

for the other deals, I mean you have an item up for auction and bids on it, but then you go to other threads and say "I'll trade you this item for what you're auctioning." You should let the owner know you're auctioning an item and let the people in your auction thread know that's the b/o for you.


Yea I really dislike when people do this.

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I think a seller should be able to not sell if they want to. Its not like there's any alternative to trying to sell anything on the forum, as here the prices are like 5-10times higher than an afk shop tbh.

and like profish said above, sometimes you could consider selling one item better than what you have, so that you can buy a few items - like selling a ult piece to buy 3-4 sup pieces for multiple chars. point of an auction as well is to allow people to trade in other stuff...other times you have no idea what something is worth in terms of trade values..some other times maybe you see someone sell an item similar to yours for 8 cubes and you auction a similar item and there's no interest/nobody can afford it etc so it doesn't achieve a decent value :E.

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My opinion is it is fine as is. All of the cheating, false price moving, masked reserved price is simply part of a larger meta-game. If you are smart you can manipulate the markets to your will given the brains and capital.

Games like Eve toil for months on how to accomplish this task and control it. DD, which I imagine never thought it would even have a real economy originally, accomplished most of this by pure accident. A true free market system.

It is honestly something to be marveled at. One of Trendy's greatest accomplishments. An entire economic system was developed on the fly by garbage give-aways as part of a Steam promotion. Surely even they couldnt have imagined that would take place. I'd take pride in that. Show me one MMO where an economy was developed around bad items. You wont find one. the reason why so many in game economies fail is a new item is always introduced that eclipses an old one. Anyone want to buy a perfect rock?

Leave it alone a free market should develop as a true free market is un-knowable.

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You are right and wrong about one thing. The reason they fail is because the new item steps on the feet of the VALUABLE rare old items. They kill the economy if they take the rare "non-farmable" items and make something that basically replaces that. Also, I think the fact that people are so savvy and used to now making "rares" in games, that it just happens so much easier when companies don't try to make money off the items they create as special awards.

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yeah i agree so much for auctions

your supposed to sell it at the price the bidder has placed.

just because you dont like what you got offered doesnt mean you should have a right to keep it , your the one who put it up in the first place taking that risk.

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[QUOTE]Leave it alone a free market should develop as a true free market is un-knowable. [/QUOTE]

I agree, it's good enough and Trendy is not going to change it anyway. With all the hacked stuff out there now, it's best to just farm your own.

Mike.

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My opinion is it is fine as is. All of the cheating, false price moving, masked reserved price is simply part of a larger meta-game. If you are smart you can manipulate the markets to your will given the brains and capital.

Games like Eve toil for months on how to accomplish this task and control it. DD, which I imagine never thought it would even have a real economy originally, accomplished most of this by pure accident. A true free market system.

It is honestly something to be marveled at. One of Trendy's greatest accomplishments. An entire economic system was developed on the fly by garbage give-aways as part of a Steam promotion. Surely even they couldnt have imagined that would take place. I'd take pride in that. Show me one MMO where an economy was developed around bad items. You wont find one. the reason why so many in game economies fail is a new item is always introduced that eclipses an old one. Anyone want to buy a perfect rock?

Leave it alone a free market should develop as a true free market is un-knowable.


If you actually believe in that, you're merely fooling yourself. The EVE market is characterized by competition both on the side of buyers and the side of sellers, and in that way it's nowhere like the DD market, in which the only characteristic feature and mechanic is short supply.

Sellers are doing whatever the hell they please because the only ones competing among themselves are the buyers. If someone is selling, say, a good pair of Ultimate tower mail gloves with the exact stats you need, there's a good chance you won't see another pair of Ultimate tower mail gloves any time soon. They, on the other hand, have a perfectly good chance that someone else will want their gloves and will offer a better pay than you. So the only one that's "free" is the seller, while the buyer is entirely at their mercy.

Moreover, unlike EVE, there are no constant sinks for currency or currency items. There is no mechanic to prevent rich players from getting richer infinitely, even without actively playing the game; wealth is measured in items of no gameplay value which are never spent or used up, and players of no previous significance have skipped entire stages of in-game progression solely by the virtue of participating in events.

The funny part is, everyone participating in the market is deluding themselves. The "economy" of DD is a lie because there is no guarantee at all that the item you are buying came to be through legitimate means; anyone who ever traded for anything could be an accomplice in hacking and they'll never know it.

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Eve controls supply through blueprints and drops. They monitor it on a daily basis for 30 minutes. they are quite hands on.

Eve has a nice system for ISK sink this is true but DD does require you to put billions into upgrades. Not perfect, but not the worst coin sink system I've seen either. the mana generation possibly should have been toned down a bit.

The economy is completely player driven whether through item rarity or necessity but it is there with hardly any interference.

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beah, there is no real mana sink in DD except for the poor and non hackers.

Yep, FORUM economy has really turned into just a ultra rare snogfest. 8-10 months ago it was about getting stuff you needed and making some mana to pay for upgrades and buy better stuff. Now it's 80% about buying/trading ultra rare items that only drop every 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 drops or have caps like event items. But most of the new event items will start trading much lower as so many people participate in events and only the first few months worth will ever hold massive value.

Been there done that seen this type of economy before.

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Eve controls supply through blueprints and drops. They monitor it on a daily basis for 30 minutes. they are quite hands on.

Eve has a nice system for ISK sink this is true but DD does require you to put billions into upgrades. Not perfect, but not the worst coin sink system I've seen either. the mana generation possibly should have been toned down a bit.

The economy is completely player driven whether through item rarity or necessity but it is there with hardly any interference.


Cubes and event items are the de facto currency and they have no sink at all, and the mana sink only exists for beginning and intermediate players. Beyond a certain point the upgrade costs in armor and weapons are hardly noticeable, and while maxing out pets or accessories can prove expensive, the costs are still finite too as a single upgrade level cannot cost more than 2 billions.

In EVE, there is no "endgame" since if you want to keep playing on the same level, you need to remain constantly active and fight back people who try to take over your market share or physically take over your stuff. In DD, there is a point where you are capable of beating every mission in the game and you objectively don't need any more mana or items, there's nothing to stop you from only selling and never buying. That's where you either quit, start helping others, or just sit there on an infinitely growing pile of wealth; unfortunately, the "market" seems centered mainly around the third group.

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I am not sure what we are arguing about exactly. I only used Eve as a reference since it is commonly used as the de facto example of video game economic systems. I used it simply to illustrate how DD developed an economy when I'd bet my left arm Trendy never imagined it would get as big or important as it did.

What Eve has done is impressive. As is DD imho. That's all.

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I am not sure what we are arguing about exactly. I only used Eve as a reference since it is commonly used as the de facto example of video game economic systems. I used it simply to illustrate how DD developed an economy when I'd bet my left arm Trendy never imagined it would get as big or important as it did.

What Eve has done is impressive. As is DD imho. That's all.


It was an extremely bad example because DD "economy" is hardly impressive. It revolves only around a relatively small percentage of players who in truth shouldn't even need to buy or sell anything. It's what will always happen when you give people too much wealth and not enough to do in the actual game, nothing spectacular about it. EVE economy, on the other hand, involves and affects every player regardless of their play time and status. You're trying to see something bigger in the DD market than there really is.

Moreover, in DD you never actually risk anything while trading (as long as you item check everything) - gear has no durability stat, so even if you become completely broke in currency items, you can just get right back to farming. As it stands, you can reach wealth in DD without actual risk because the trade items are so inconsequential to real gameplay. So why should I respect anyone who's achieved wealth?

I will never be impressed by the DD economy until issues like the one mentioned in the original post have been fixed - not by artificial rules and regulations, but through actual in-game mechanics that will motivate people to sell items and put their wealth to work.

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@OP

The whole issue arises from two problems:

1. Virtual Greed
2. Sellers not respecting the WTA/WTT/WTS convetions because of....greed.

Greed is a personal thing, as for the second, if people learn to respect the differences among the three, trading would improve, a little, right now it is as ruined as the game's economy.

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@OP

The whole issue arises from two problems:

1. Virtual Greed
2. Sellers not respecting the WTA/WTT/WTS convetions because of....greed.

Greed is a personal thing, as for the second, if people learn to respect the differences among the three, trading would improve, a little, right now it is as ruined as the game's economy.


There is nothing wrong with greed in itself, you can say it's greedy to try to get maximum value on your items. The problem occurs when people start doing shady things to maximize their profit. Yes, that is motivated by greed, but it's also because that particular person has no ethics.

Also to flip this argument on the other side, for every seller who doesnt sell for whatever reason, there are plenty of bidders who revoke at the last minute or dont pay after they won. Neither side here is innocent.

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There is nothing wrong with greed in itself, you can say it's greedy to try to get maximum value on your items. The problem occurs when people start doing shady things to maximize their profit. Yes, that is motivated by greed, but it's also because that particular person has no ethics.

Also to flip this argument on the other side, for ever seller who doesnt sell for whatever reason, there are plenty of bidders who revoke at the last minute or dont pay after they won. Neither side here is innocent.


I agree that greed itself is not at fault here as greed exists in every economy, but the same could be said about lack of ethics. Like I said, the whole issue arises from the fact that most sellers and buyers don't actually need the items they're trading for as they're already in the endgame zone. They don't really care if they get/sell an item or not because either way they're giving from what they have in excess.

As it stands, Supremes and Ultimates are merely luxury items because you can complete everything in the game in Transcendent. The market is basically a bunch of rich pop stars striving to have a differently colored sports car for every day of the week. Let people accumulate too much wealth too easily and that's what you get, no surprise.

Now if hypothetically there was a mechanic that caused armor to "wear out" after a while, forcing it to be either replaced or repaired using similar quality items, I imagine that would motivate people to keep farming and/or participate in the market more diligently. But then the trading metagame would have to become an integral part of the actual game in the form of an auction house, and the loot system would have to be improved to produce high-end items more consistently so that people relying on their own farming wouldn't be unfairly disadvantaged.

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There is nothing wrong with greed in itself, you can say it's greedy to try to get maximum value on your items. The problem occurs when people start doing shady things to maximize their profit. Yes, that is motivated by greed, but it's also because that particular person has no ethics.

Also to flip this argument on the other side, for ever seller who doesnt sell for whatever reason, there are plenty of bidders who revoke at the last minute or dont pay after they won. Neither side here is innocent.


As I said, it's a personal issue, I find it disgusting, specially in a game where nothing holds real world value, but to each it's own. You are right and many bidders are at fault too.

If a person is already fixated in getting two cubes for X item, they shouldn't start a WTA, what they need to use is WTS, I'm selling X item, price is two cubes. Now that I think about it, for all practical matters WTS and WTT are exactly the same, so perhaps what is needed here is a revamp of the trading forum.

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