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Winterbraid

The easiest fix to progression, RNG, etc. - no coding required!

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So yeah. I guess this should belong in the Suggestions forum, but since it seems to be more of a 'Voice Calling Out in the Wilderness' forum these days, I decided to post it here. Trendy has more or less admitted the RNG won't be changing, and it's purely coincidental that I have thought of an alternative solution just earlier (while playing Easy campaign with newly rolled characters, with a friend to whom I've recently gifted a copy of DD).

My idea is:
1. Increase the Heroic Skill Points pool by the factor of 3x.
2. Increase the amount of Skill Points that can be assigned to a single Hero Stat by the factor of 5x.

Sounds simple? Now let's have a look at what this would change.



Currently a level 90 hero has a pool of 645 skill points, of which they can assign a maximum of 180 into any single stat. That means they can boost three stats by 180 and a fourth by 105. For example, a naked lv 90 hero could "specialize" into towers, achieving the tower stats of 180/180/105/180, or go for an equal distribution of 161/162/161/161.

Of course that kind of "specialization" is a joke because such stats are nothing when you consider what can be achieved even with low end Myth gear, and what kind of stats it takes to even attempt Nightmare. The Tavernkeeper's occasional remark, 'Have you considered changing your specialization?,' can invoke nothing but laughter since even if I specced my 3k builder fully into DPS, she would be hardly less effective as a builder (nor would she become much more effective as a DPS hero).



Now let's have a look at my suggestion. A level 90 hero would have a pool of 1935 skill points (not a bad number) at their disposal, and with the increased per-stat limit of 900, they could for example invest 900 into each of Tower HP and Damage and put the remaining 135 into Range, or go for a balanced distribution of 484/484/483/484.

Obviously, giving all those points to people right away would make things too easy. Since the common agreement seems to be that the progression up to and including the Insane difficulty is fine, the skill point per level yield up to level 74 should remain unchanged. Every next level above 74 should face a progressively more significant increase in the skill points yield, together accounting for the drastic increase in the skill points pool that I'm proposing.



Let's see how that would affect different groups of Nightmare players.

1. Beginners, people with low end myth and 600-800 stats, would be able to either boost their stats equally into the 900-1.1k range, or opt for a remarkable boost to 1.5k in the priority stats and settle for lower values in the remaining stats. That should set them up for farming Survival on any map in the original campaign. Of course bringing a hero to level 90 is no small feat in itself and most of those people would enjoy smaller boosts at first, but considering that Campaign maps yield increasingly decent amounts of experience, it wouldn't be unthinkable for a character to reach 90 only by playing the original campaign survival. It would create an additional sense of progression throughout the campaign (most of which currently feels more or less the same when Survival is concerned). It would create a serious incentive to level up your character. Currently the only reason to level up beyond 74 is to unlock the ability to equip Transcendent or better gear, which those people usually don't own.

2. The intermediate players, those who have started moving on to Shards survival and are trying to complete Transcendent or better sets for their characters, would have an easier time picking gear. A piece dropped with a crappy -150 in Range but good remaining tower stats? No problem when you can pump up to 900 hero points into Range. The loot system, which for those players usually starts to crap out more and more negatives as the loot modifiers increase, would become much more bearable if negatives could be reasonably padded with hero stats.

3. The best of the best would become slightly better. It hardly matters if they get even better when they are already the best and can complete every challenge and mission in the game. Trendy seems to think that way too, as they have agreed to boost the movement speed of the Super Legendary Costumes, which will result in those costumes becoming vastly overpowered due to the excellent HP and Attack boosts they already provide.



The beauty of my idea is in the fact it would actually change absolutely nothing about the current state of balance.

A boost of 320 in every stat (an equal distribution of 483 vs. the current 161) is comparable to the effects of equipping a perfect Pet Rock on a character (600 in all tower stats versus 200-400 on a typical other tower pet, such as a Giraffe). A boost of 720 in two stats (a maximum of 900 vs. the current 180) is smaller than the effect of equipping two such perfect Rocks on a Summoner.

(Other classes are much worse off than Summoner, as to achieve a similar result they would have to equip an Ultimate weapon with all 600 tower stats, which is nigh impossible. The exception is a builder EV, who would need two weapons with all 300 in towers. So my suggestion would help bring the original classes more in line with the DLC classes.)

Now those who can farm perfect rocks themselves obviously fall into the 3rd category in my opinion, they are already among the best, so discussing balance in their case is moot. Those who cannot farm perfect rocks yet but obtain them through other means (selling cubes or sets of lower tier armor) are already breaking progression anyway by using an item that is beyond their own reach. So why not give a similar advantage to those who are not willing or able to delve into the market?

DPS heroes usually don't use perfect rocks and only need 2-3 excellent stats, so it would become much easier to make a powerful DPS character. But I think between weapon nerfs, spiders and copters, they are already at such a poor standing in Nightmare that there would be no harm in giving them an overall buff. Especially considering that DLC characters are already receiving such a buff from their additional weapon slots. And while DPS characters are necessary, it's the tower builders that form the core of the gameplay and progression in Nightmare and I feel balancing concerns should be focused mainly around builders.



To sum it up, I suggest that every Nightmare (level 74+) character should be buffed by a considerable amount of stat points that can be distributed at will and are not subject to the RNG. As I see it, increasing the impact of hero specialization would bring only benefits and no downsides.

Leveling up and specialization would have meaning in Nightmare.

It would be easy to implement. Both skill point yields and distribution limits are arbitrary constants that have been adjusted in the past.

You would have an actual choice between specialization and balance, as currently it's laughable when a maximum "specialized" value is 180 and a balanced distribution is 161.

The beginners would have it easier.

The advanced players would gain a tool to combat the RNG.

The best would still be the best.

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This is a rather well thought out argument, and I find myself agreeing with your suggestion for boosting the Hero Points accrued by leveling up only upon reaching Level 74 and higher. It would certainly provide a similar feeling to what I felt when I started and leveling up continuously made my character visibly and effectively better, as opposed to the more quantized levels of improvement brought upon by reaching new loot tiers.

I give my full support to this excellent post, especially for the fantastic way it is proposed and justified. Well done.

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I wouldn't mind seeing this change, it'd do a lot for lower tiered players while still requiring the "work" of xp grinding to achieve it, however I say start jumping the points at 78, although that's a small nit pick

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While this wouldn't fix all the problems it would be a great step towards it. As stated earlier, leveling up becomes largely pointless because the only thing leveling really does for your character is allow you a higher ranking gear- the stats themselves (as the game currently works) is almost irrelevant.

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Very well-stated, and I wholeheartedly agree. I've been thinking similar things for quite a while now. In the vanilla game, and campaign progression through Insane, the stat points earned up to level 70 were the key to success. Armor could augment them, but only mildly so. It was about choosing your specialization, based on points you earned fairly from leveling. You could then concentrate on clearing stages solely with your strategy and quick-thinking.

In Nightmare mode, those base stat points became useless. Like you said, even throwing 180 into a couple stats isn't going to help on content that requires your stats to be 1K, 1.5K, or even higher. Success in stats for Nightmare mode has become all about armor, but farming for that armor has become a bit unfair due to the limitations of the loot spawning system. What you suggest could put some power back into the leveling stat points: the way the game was designed initially. You also showed how it could be made fair, rather than making it too easy for early players. You, sir, have my vote. I pray that the devs take this idea to heart.

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/moving

For future reference, threads deliberately posted in incorrect locations may be closed, but seeing as this is somewhat a good idea it will remain open ;)

For those that think this is harsh, let me explain. The forum is split into categories for a reason. When the devs want to see what the community has suggested, they go straight to the suggestion forum. Posting it anywhere else will make it prone to being ignored/lost. I hope you understand.


Question though;

- what happens when I need to respec? I click the points 2 thousand times?

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/moving

For future reference, threads deliberately posted in incorrect locations may be closed, but seeing as this is somewhat a good idea it will remain open ;)

For those that think this is harsh, let me explain. The forum is split into categories for a reason. When the devs want to see what the community has suggested, they go straight to the suggestion forum. Posting it anywhere else will make it prone to being ignored/lost. I hope you understand.


Question though;

- what happens when I need to respec? I click the points 2 thousand times?


well right now holding buttons varries how many points get put into a spec...

i think its wither 5,10,or 20 points depending on the button, i havent used that in a while, because if i respec i just put every point avalable into the skill which is also a 1 click if you hold a button down.

they could implement 2 new buttons.

a 3 spec button, that will but 1/3 your points into it, and a 4spec button that would evenly distribute it over 4 categories.

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/moving

For future reference, threads deliberately posted in incorrect locations may be closed, but seeing as this is somewhat a good idea it will remain open ;)

For those that think this is harsh, let me explain. The forum is split into categories for a reason. When the devs want to see what the community has suggested, they go straight to the suggestion forum. Posting it anywhere else will make it prone to being ignored/lost. I hope you understand.


Question though;

- what happens when I need to respec? I click the points 2 thousand times?


From my experience, 95% of the posts in Suggestions get no staff response. I put a lot of thought into everything I post and I would expect at least a simple 'yes' or 'no,' combined with maybe at least a general indication of 'why.'

I don't think pressing a button 1935 times is all that much worse than pressing it 645 times. Altogether, upgrading a full set of gear can easily account for much more than 1000 clicks. If you think it's such a big problem (which it admittedly is), maybe the whole point assignment system should be changed like the people above me have suggested. But it's not a big deal compared to the issues that those added points could solve.

All in all, I'd be happy with clicking 1935 times if it meant my hero specialization would actually make some sort of a difference. For all I care, the experience required for levels above 74 could be increased in exchange (and no, I don't have all 90s yet).

Edit:

Shift = 5 points
CTRL = Maximum points you can do

I'm not sure about any others


Well, blood and thunder, I never knew about that. It should be a loading screen tip or something. I guess that settles it.

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From my experience, 95% of the posts in Suggestions get no staff response. I put a lot of thought into everything I post and I would expect at least a simple 'yes' or 'no,' combined with maybe at least a general indication of 'why.'

I don't think pressing a button 1935 times is all that much worse than pressing it 645 times. Altogether, upgrading a full set of gear can easily account for much more than 1000 clicks. If you think it's such a big problem (which it admittedly is), maybe the whole point assignment system should be changed like the people above me have suggested. But it's not a big deal compared to the issues that those added points could solve.

All in all, I'd be happy with clicking 1935 times if it meant my hero specialization would actually make some sort of a difference. For all I care, the experience required for levels above 74 could be increased in exchange (and no, I don't have all 90s yet).

Edit:



Well, blood and thunder, I never knew about that. It should be a loading screen tip or something. I guess that settles it.


Just because they get no response does not mean they do not view it.

I don't want to sound rude, but you shouldn't expect a response from Trendy. It's a nicety if they do.

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Just because they get no response does not mean they do not view it.

I don't want to sound rude, but you shouldn't expect a response from Trendy. It's a nicety if they do.


When I see no evidence to the contrary, it's logical to assume the suggestion threads are not viewed. But if you are saying they are all viewed, I will take your word on it.

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When I see no evidence to the contrary, it's logical to assume the suggestion threads are not viewed. But if you are saying they are all viewed, I will take your word on it.


I believe that hitmonchan has said that, whilst they aren't all replied to, they are all looked at.

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A boost to hero stats would definitely help progression. Although, that is like 100 points per lvl after 74 but it does bring it in line with 74+ gear.

The only other thing that could use work would be a revamp for defenses and mobs. Like a sharken charging through walls instead of pushing them...wouldn't reduce their threat and may add a little more fun (a wall jumper instead of a wall pusher).

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I'll pass this along to the team.

give us an update if anything in this thread is going to or at least attempted to be implemented. after being told they wont change the rng at all, this is really all allot of players would come back to experiment with.

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give us an update if anything in this thread is going to or at least attempted to be implemented. after being told they wont change the rng at all, this is really all allot of players would come back to experiment with.


I'll mention it again early next week.

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I support this, if you want to spread the word about the existance of this post, paste this in your signature:
[url"=http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?78553-The-easiest-fix-to-progression-RNG-etc.-no-coding-required!]Fix to Progression, RNG and more. (Winterbraid)["/url]

Remove the BOLD " and save.

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I also like this idea as it helps the lower geared players the most, and yet keeps the grind for better gear.

This in conjuction with CrzyRndm's TC (NiceRNG - with Dingle's input) would probably be everything that most could ever want.

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I wouldn't mind seeing this change, it'd do a lot for lower tiered players while still requiring the "work" of xp grinding to achieve it, however I say start jumping the points at 78, although that's a small nit pick


I'd give unchanged points for levels 1-73, then a bit more points for levels 74-78, then considerably more for 79-83, and lots more for 84-90.

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I'd give unchanged points for levels 1-73, then a bit more points for levels 74-78, then considerably more for 79-83, and lots more for 84-90.


Yes, that would make levelling even more fun and motivating.

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