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DunDef Digest 9/6/12 Discussion Thread


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[QUOTE]I don't want to buy the other DLC's,[/QUOTE]Why not? Why do you not want these as much as you wanted the others? I'm rather puzzled because the first thing most people want in any game like this is new classes.

You already completed pretty much everything if you're in a position where you absolutely need DLC characters to progress further.

There is no way to buff the original characters without them becoming even more broken in combination with the DLC characters- buff all original character towers, then put them on a buff beam, and things will be too easy. Nerfing them is the only option, which isn't fair to the people who bought them.

I repeat: You do NOT have to buy them to benefit from them. Team up with someone who does have them, then you can save yourself the $3 and still complete everything, if you're so convinced the game isn't beatable without them. There's no reason not to play online other than the occasional disconnect. You don't always have to play with others- if there's something you want to do alone, you can still do it alone online, just make a private game.

I really don't understand your complaint, because you were willing to buy 4 much more expensive DLCs to unlock nightmare mode to progress further but you're not willing to buy 2 much cheaper ones that give you new characters to progress further. Thus, there's nothing further I can say.

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Why not? Why do you not want these as much as you wanted the others? I'm rather puzzled because the first thing most people want in any game like this is new classes.


Me not wanting the new characters isn't the issue at hand here. If you really must know, I want to beat the game with the vanilla characters before investing in the new ones. The issue is that without them, its near impossible to beat everything in Nightmare mode. I haven't seen anybody yet who has, based on all the DDPlanner builds out there and all the guides in the PC/Console guides section. In addition I've tried several variations of popular builds with the original defenses, and come up with solo strategies of my own design. Nothing works anymore when I play solo. I should be able to progress solo, but I can't without DLC characters that I don't feel like buying. That's the issue here, not the fact that I don't feel like I shouldn't have to pay for the new DLC characters.

You already completed pretty much everything if you're in a position where you absolutely need DLC characters to progress further.


I'd love to see some guides on how to do it then. I don't see any that don't utilize either the summoner or EV, if they aren't using both. Like I said above, I've tried. Again and again and again. It really seems like a exercise in futility whenever I boot up the game anymore.

There is no way to buff the original characters without them becoming even more broken in combination with the DLC characters- buff all original character towers, then put them on a buff beam, and things will be too easy. Nerfing them is the only option, which isn't fair to the people who bought them.


ALL Nightmare mode content should be beatable with the 4 original heroes. Right now, this seems darn near impossible (see above).

I don't have a problem with DLC characters make the game easier- they've already been doing so for several months now. However, they SHOULD NOT be a requirement, because that is an unethical business practice, and a massive "screw you" to customers.

I repeat: You do NOT have to buy them to benefit from them. Team up with someone who does have them, then you can save yourself the $3 and still complete everything, if you're so convinced the game isn't beatable without them. There's no reason not to play online other than the occasional disconnect. You don't always have to play with others- if there's something you want to do alone, you can still do it alone online, just make a private game.


Playing with other people wasn't necessary to progress from Easy to Insane. Why should I be forced to play with others now?

I shouldn't have to be forced to play with other people to progress in a game that allows me to go solo! I shouldn't have to be forced to buy DLC to progress in DLC I already bought! I shouldn't be forced to use non-vanilla defenses to progress in a game that comes with vanilla defenses! Game designers should know this, its basic stuff!


I really don't understand your complaint, because you were willing to buy 4 much more expensive DLCs to unlock nightmare mode to progress further but you're not willing to buy 2 much cheaper ones that give you new characters to progress further. Thus, there's nothing further I can say.


I shouldn't have to spend money on DLC to beat DLC. Its stupid and unethical.

I bought Nightmare mode on the assumption I could beat it the way I beat the rest of the game- without the use of other DLC. It doesn't matter how much it costs. That point is irrelevant. The fact that the content is necessary and costs money, however...

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[QUOTE]I shouldn't have to spend money on DLC to beat DLC. Its stupid and unethical.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you.
I feel like I have been milked dry by Trendy at this point. Purposefully balancing the game around DLC, making it impossible to beat DLC without buying more DLC, is just really, for the lack of a better word - stupid.

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I totally agree with you.
I feel like I have been milked dry by Trendy at this point. Purposefully balancing the game around DLC, making it impossible to beat DLC without buying more DLC, is just really, for the lack of a better word - stupid.


I think what really gets to me is that I bought the Shards Pack DLC back before there was such a RNG issue.. Now that it's complete, it has all these issues that they've had plenty of time to address, and instead of doing that while the content was in development, they pushed the content out (In what I would call an unfinished state).

At this point I'd be happier if the armor stopped at Godly and instead, you would grind to keep leveling up with no level cap. At least then you're time you spend grinding would mean something.

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I would be able to deal with all of their pathetic business decisions if they would focus on balance FOR ONCE. Loot RNG being fixed would be all that is required for me. Sure more needs to be worked on, but that alone would have me playing for much longer than anything else. As it is now, I am done.

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I would be able to deal with all of their pathetic business decisions if they would focus on balance FOR ONCE. Loot RNG being fixed would be all that is required for me. Sure more needs to be worked on, but that alone would have me playing for much longer than anything else. As it is now, I am done.
Quick question would you mind me putting this in my signature?

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[QUOTE]I shouldn't have to spend money on DLC to beat DLC. Its stupid and unethical. [/QUOTE]There is nothing unethical about it. Creating incentives for people to buy something is not unethical in a capitalist society. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Neither nightmare nor the DLC characters are required components of the game.

[QUOTE]Playing with other people wasn't necessary to progress from Easy to Insane. Why should I be forced to play with others now?[/QUOTE]It isn't necessary now, either. It's called a suggestion. I don't know why some people are so resistant to playing co-op in a game that was designed for it. This game, like most games with a multiplayer component, is way better with friends, whether its "necessary" or not.

[QUOTE]I don't have a problem with DLC characters make the game easier- they've already been doing so for several months now. However, they SHOULD NOT be a requirement, because that is an unethical business practice, and a massive "screw you" to customers. [/QUOTE]I would like to hear your proposal of how to address this without
1) making DLC not DLC (not an option)
2) giving a massive "screw you" to the people who bought the DLC characters.

You could adjust the difficulty of the later maps where this becomes a problem, but then the game becomes a walk in the park for the DLC character users who might feel they wasted their money because they didn't need the characters at all. You could nerf the DLC characters, but this wouldn't be fair to the people who bought them.

I see no win-win solution that would make everybody happy.

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There is nothing unethical about it. Creating incentives for people to buy something is not unethical in a capitalist society. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Neither nightmare nor the DLC characters are required components of the game.

It isn't necessary now, either. It's called a suggestion. I don't know why some people are so resistant to playing co-op in a game that was designed for it. This game, like most games with a multiplayer component, is way better with friends, whether its "necessary" or not.


I agree that it isn't unethical. It is just stupid.

So many micro transactions can not only confuse newcomers, but can start to become irritating for some. Luckily steam makes it a lot easier and safer to deal with, but it isn't like there is any info on the steam page or the website letting people know that not having certain DLC packs (not including shard maps since that is more like an expansion) will make end game next to impossible.

By the time they reach the point of doing NM stuff, they will feel overwhelmed; sure, some will check the forums and find out what is wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that most wont and might simply quit out of frustration.

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[QUOTE]So many micro transactions can not only confuse newcomers[/QUOTE]This isn't a microtransaction game. There is no ingame store selling cosemetics, temporary consumables, etc. DLCs are all one time purchases.

Capitalism can be stupid sometimes, but it is what it is. Complaining about it is like complaining it's cold at the north pole.

Anyway, see edit above. I see a lot of complaining, but no realistic ideas for solutions.

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This isn't a microtransaction game. There is no ingame store selling cosemetics, temporary consumables, etc. DLCs are all one time purchases.

Capitalism can be stupid sometimes, but it is what it is. Complaining about it is like complaining it's cold at the north pole.

Anyway, see edit above. I see a lot of complaining, but no realistic ideas for solutions.


I was just pointing out some of the points other people are trying to get across. Also, purchasing small bits of content separately is considered a micro transaction. Doesn't have to be a specific type of content.

Like I said before, the main solution to silence a lot of complaints in general: Fix the loot issues, considering end game and the bulk of your time playing this game, will be about collecting loot. Our only hope now (though not likely to be implemented) is that the mod/coding being worked on by CrzyRndm will be looked at by the devs and considered by them to be put into effect.

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I was just pointing out some of the points other people are trying to get across. Also, purchasing small bits of content separately is considered a micro transaction. Doesn't have to be a specific type of content.

Like I said before, the main solution to silence a lot of complaints in general: Fix the loot issues, considering end game and the bulk of your time playing this game, will be about collecting loot. Our only hope now (though not likely to be implemented) is that the mod/coding being worked on by CrzyRndm will be looked at by the devs and considered by them to be put into effect.


They actually have implemented some UI changes and other things that people developed using TCs in the past, so it's not an impossibility.

What frustrates me most is some people act like this is the first game that's ever had bugs in it's "finished" state. Far from it in fact, but the hate I see here is nothing like I've seen for some of those other games

(e.g. TES4: Oblivion has to be one of THE buggiest games i've ever played in my life [many of them game breaking], but it generated suprisingly little raging.)

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They actually have implemented some UI changes and other things that people developed using TCs in the past, so it's not an impossibility.

What frustrates me most is some people act like this is the first game that's ever had bugs in it's "finished" state. Far from it in fact, but the hate I see here is nothing like I've seen for some of those other games

(e.g. TES4: Oblivion has to be one of THE buggiest games i've ever played in my life [many of them game breaking], but it generated suprisingly little raging.)


I can see why it would frustrate you. Keep in mind that although there are buggier games out there, the issues at hand might not be considered 'bugs' as much as balance issues or mistakes made in their grand design as they added new content.

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There is nothing unethical about it. Creating incentives for people to buy something is not unethical in a capitalist society. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Neither nightmare nor the DLC characters are required components of the game.


I never thought I'd be using a car example, but here we go. I buy an SUV. It works well, its great, and I love it so much, that I decide to purchase a DVD player for it. I expect the DVD player to work upon installation, but when I get the car back, the DVD player is missing a few parts that keep it from working properly. When I talk to the car company, they tell me my only option is to buy the missing parts (which are conveniently only available from them). THIS IS UNETHICAL. SO IS THE SITUATION IN NIGHTMARE MODE.

Incentives are different from forced purchases to complete something. Like I said, I'd love to see someone complete all nightmare content without using an EV or a Summoner at any point. I'd love to be proven wrong. But as far as I've seen, and believe me, I've been looking, there's no way to do it. If you know of somebody who has, I'd love for a link to their steam profile or a link to a thread where they've done it.

Neither Nightmare nor the DLC characters are necessary parts of the game, but I'd sure like to beat what I've purchased without spending even MORE money to do so. So in your suggestion, I should just give up on the DLC I bought because I'm not willing to shell out a few bucks? Get real.

It isn't necessary now, either. It's called a suggestion. I don't know why some people are so resistant to playing co-op in a game that was designed for it. This game, like most games with a multiplayer component, is way better with friends, whether its "necessary" or not.


In a game where I'm given the option to play solo, and is advertised as being playable single player, I shouldn't have to play with other people in order to progress. I don't want to play with others just yet. Why should I have to go outside what I feel comfortable doing to complete DLC content that I bought for a game that was also designed to accomodate single player?

I would like to hear your proposal of how to address this without
1) making DLC not DLC (not an option)
2) giving a massive "screw you" to the people who bought the DLC characters.

You could adjust the difficulty of the later maps where this becomes a problem, but then the game becomes a walk in the park for the DLC character users who might feel they wasted their money because they didn't need the characters at all. You could nerf the DLC characters, but this wouldn't be fair to the people who bought them.

I see no win-win solution that would make everybody happy.


The solution, which I've been constantly telling you, is to buff the original characters to a point where they can beat Nightmare mode without the necessity of DLC characters. It doesn't screw over the people who bought the DLC characters- it just makes people who don't WANT them able to compete. It also lets people with the DLC characters experiment with builds that vary from the ever popular "summoner units on EV walls" strategy.

You can never please everybody, and I suspect the elite players who worked hard for their gear would get up in arms over this, but Trendy's obligation should first and foremost be to balance Nightmare to work with people who HAVEN'T bought additional DLCs to make it easier. DLC characters still will have their awesome strategies that get them through Nightmare, and sure, they can complain, but the only right thing to do is buff the original characters.

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[QUOTE]The solution, which I've been constantly telling you, is to buff the original characters to a point where they can beat Nightmare mode without the necessity of DLC characters.[/QUOTE]I already explained why this doesn't work- it ruins the balance of the game. You can't just buff everything that you view is inferior, because then when combined with the things you're buffing them up to, it trivializes the game, and makes some of the people who bought the DLC feel like they wasted their money.

[QUOTE]In a game where I'm given the option to play solo, and is advertised as being playable single player, I shouldn't have to play with other people in order to progress. I don't want to play with others just yet.[/QUOTE]Just yet? you've already completed the vast majority of the game... You don't HAVE TO. nobody's putting a gun to you and saying you have to. but it is HIGHLY RECCOMENDED. If you're struggling with something, it gives you another option. I feel like the people who say this are being defiant for the sake of being defiant. It is advertised as single player but it is also advertised as multiplayer, and solo players have no more entitlement than mutliplayer players. So why not enjoy all features of the game instead of restricting yourself to one and complaining that you find it hard without taking advantage of all the features of the game?

Also: Outside of Crystalline Dimension, you should be able to clear every map in campaign mode, including beating the original game and all four shard maps single player. It will take work, yes. The only thing I think is unrealistic to solo is CD on NM/NMHC.

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I'd be careful criticizing the DLC and Trendy's business practices. Some games have micro-payments, some games have subscription fees, some games just cost a crapload of $$$ on launch, other games have DLC.

I know some people shun 'mandatory' DLCs by principle, but I prefer to look at numbers first. And let's face it: Even if you buy ALL the DLCs, including the complete Shards (which is practically an expansion), every bonus map and all of the purely cosmetic costume packs, the game still costs less than base Diablo III. And in my opinion, DD is pretty well-balanced compared to Diablo III. Yeah, DD has a lot of issues and I never hesitate to point out those issues, but unlike DIII, I will never consider the money I spent on DD wasted.

That said, considering how many DLC classes are out there by now, I think it might be a good moment to have a complete hero class DLC pack for sale with a discount.

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I already explained why this doesn't work- it ruins the balance of the game. You can't just buff everything that you view is inferior, because then when combined with the things you're buffing them up to, it trivializes the game, and makes some of the people who bought the DLC feel like they wasted their money.


Really? Because I didn't hear any complaints in patch 7.38e for when the apprentice got a damage ramp buff of 15%, which was after both the Summoner and EV were released. I didn't see anybody demanding that Trendy give back their money then.


Just yet? you've already completed the vast majority of the game... You don't HAVE TO. nobody's putting a gun to you and saying you have to. but it is HIGHLY RECCOMENDED. If you're struggling with something, it gives you another option. I feel like the people who say this are being defiant for the sake of being defiant. It is advertised as single player but it is also advertised as multiplayer, and solo players have no more entitlement than mutliplayer players. So why not enjoy all features of the game instead of restricting yourself to one and complaining that you find it hard without taking advantage of all the features of the game?


ITS ADVERTISED AS SINGLE PLAYER, THEREFORE I SHOULD BE ABLE TO BEAT IT IN SINGLE PLAYER! I shouldn't have to go outside my comfort zone by playing multiplayer by playing a single player DLC! I want to complete this DLC. Saying that I should just play multiplayer to get better gear only exemplifies the fact that there are balance issues with single player, and that they need fixing!

People who play in multiplayer in Nightmare get a hell of a lot further than people who play single player. Those people can get the gear their way, they can progress, so why shouldn't I be able to get the gear in the way I want to play- without help/being carried? Besides, most people use summoner/EV in multiplayer, which I refuse to support with my money or playtime based on what I already said- they're practically required for Nightmare advancement.

Am I really "entitled" to want the same ability to progress in solo as other people have in multiplayer, without the purchasing of other DLCs?

I'd be careful criticizing the DLC and Trendy's business practices. Some games have micro-payments, some games have subscription fees, some games just cost a crapload of $$$ on launch, other games have DLC.

I know some people shun 'mandatory' DLCs by principle, but I prefer to look at numbers first. And let's face it: Even if you buy ALL the DLCs, including the complete Shards (which is practically an expansion), every bonus map and all of the purely cosmetic costume packs, the game still costs less than base Diablo III. And in my opinion, DD is pretty well-balanced compared to Diablo III. Yeah, DD has a lot of issues and I never hesitate to point out those issues, but unlike DIII, I will never consider the money I spent on DD wasted.

That said, considering how many DLC classes are out there by now, I think it might be a good moment to have a complete hero class DLC pack for sale with a discount.


Even if all the DLCs combined costs less than a traditional 60$ game, that doesn't give Trendy a free pass to make DLC that's practically required to reach endgame. It doesn't matter how much they cost, its a matter of principle (unless its free, like I already said in a previous post).

Saying that "well they aren't as bad as company X" doesn't make the company magically good by any stretch of the imagination. I do thank you for pointing out that the game does have numerous flaws though.

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[QUOTE]ITS ADVERTISED AS SINGLE PLAYER, THEREFORE I SHOULD BE ABLE TO BEAT IT IN SINGLE PLAYER![/QUOTE]It's also advertised as Co-op. But I'm not going to get into that debate again.

You CAN beat the game single player. It's just harder. If you're finding it too hard, why not take advantage of the features available to you without even buying anything, and grab a friend and play co-op? Why are you so resistant to that idea? If you aren't because you have no one to play with, anyone on these forums would be happy to team up with you.

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Guess what Carl. This is a gaming BUSINESS. Their goal? Make money while having fun (Not a feat many people can achieve...)

They release a game for 15$ that has more content than most games released for 60$.
They release MORE content for 3-5$ each or so that adds EVEN MORE hours and hours of entertainment.
Easy-Insane is very easy, I started on hard, skipped insane and went straight to nightmare. Guess what, most of it was solo

Just because you are too much of a tightwad to pay 6$ or whatever for 2 more classes that are ****ing amazing, does not entitle you to be such a whiny brat

Nightmare mode is JUST THAT. NIGHTMARE. It's expected that you or people you are playing with (YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO OWN THEM JUST PLAY WITH SOMEONE WHO DOES) have EVERY available tool and KNOW HOW TO USE THEM.

Just because you want to play this game as poor man gimpsalot, does not mean everyone else feels the same way.

TL;DR=
BUY THE CLASSES OR PLAY WITH PEOPLE WHO DO OR STFU.

Gungniir out.

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The things that players are asking for are not unreasonable. I can't tell if people truly think that the game is balanced or if they are playing devil's advocate. Finding ways to circumvent lack of balance instead of fixing it is pretty ludicrous. People should be able to beat all DLC with what they've paid for and/or haven't paid for.

The worst part is it's still not too late. People (me, myself, this guy) would come back if there was an attempt to smooth the game out. The fact that players are willing to fix the game themselves just shows how little effort it would take from the devs to balance the game in order for people to return. Instead we just get 'have you tried being carried instead of complaining'?

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The things that players are asking for are not unreasonable. I can't tell if people truly think that the game is balanced or if they are playing devil's advocate. Finding ways to circumvent lack of balance instead of fixing it is pretty ludicrous. People should be able to beat all DLC with what they've paid for and/or haven't paid for.

The worst part is it's still not too late. People (me, myself, this guy) would come back if there was an attempt to smooth the game out. The fact that players are willing to fix the game themselves just shows how little effort it would take from the devs to balance the game in order for people to return. Instead we just get 'have you tried being carried instead of complaining'?


This has been a MASSIVE issue for a long time now. Whether it be the loot RNG or the fact that you do need DLC to beat the end game without being advertised as such.

For the longest time, my brother, cousins and I avoided trading because we wanted to get the gear ourselves and progress by ourselves with no outside help. We were able to play a good 3-4 hours a day average, and we were still unable to gear up at a reasonable pace after insane content. We were forced to trade and join other people's game who were over geared for content.

Based on what was advertised, pure and simple, the game should be doable without outside help (trading/being carried). That is just not the case right now, and it is a massive game flaw.

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[QUOTE]The fact that players are willing to fix the game themselves just shows how little effort it would take from the devs to balance the game in order for people to return.[/QUOTE]Just so you know, users like us don't have access to the C++ source, only the unrealscript, so depending on the problem and the possible fixes, we can't always come up with the best solution, in a few cases it's something that only Trendy can do, and especially when you're digging into the native code, the fix is not often something you can turn out in 5 minutes or a weekend. So even if something seems easy for us, it might not be the most optimal fix and it might take more effort on their part, especially since there is a greater burden on them to make sure that nothing else is broken by a fix (and that has happened before).

(I'm not trying to justify lack of action here, I'm only saying that fixing things isn't always as simple as people think)


[QUOTE]For the longest time, my brother, cousins and I avoided trading because we wanted to get the gear ourselves and progress by ourselves with no outside help. We were able to play a good 3-4 hours a day average, and we were still unable to gear up at a reasonable pace after insane content. We were forced to trade and join other people's game who were over geared for content. [/QUOTE]It really is possible to do what you were trying to do. You just have to really test your limits, optimize your builds, and so on. It definitely does take longer than using shops or getting overgeared help, but it can be done.

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Just so you know, users like us don't have access to the C++ source, only the unrealscript, so depending on the problem and the possible fixes, we can't always come up with the best solution, in a few cases it's something that only Trendy can do, and especially when you're digging into the native code, the fix is not often something you can turn out in 5 minutes or a weekend. So even if something seems easy for us, it might not be the most optimal fix and it might take more effort on their part, especially since there is a greater burden on them to make sure that nothing else is broken by a fix (and that has happened before).

(I'm not trying to justify lack of action here, I'm only saying that fixing things isn't always as simple as people think)


It really is possible to do what you were trying to do. You just have to really test your limits, optimize your builds, and so on. It definitely does take longer than using shops or getting overgeared help, but it can be done.


You keep saying the same thing over and over again. So I will say it again. I know it is 'possible', but it takes an incredible amount of time. Also, we do not fail. We know how to build, and the one person left that I play with and I can complete Aquanos NMHC survival now. The problem that pisses us off at this point is that we can run it about 5 times all the way through with summoners out, and rarely see something we can use as an upgrade, even though between the two of us we have about 4 builders that are not even in the 2k range yet.

The reason I am even debating this is due to how many friends that quit this game over the last couple of weeks. I really don't think you understand what is being explained to you, so sorry if that comes off as an insult, but I keep repeating myself to you in so many different threads, it is getting a bit tiring :\

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the fix is not often something you can turn out in 5 minutes or a weekend.
.


But we aren't asking for them to put in 5 minutes or a weekend of work, are we? This issue didn't crop up last Thursday or over the weekend, it's been around long enough for them to have time to look at. Just because they didn't take the needed time to fix this earlier, doesn't mean that now they're absolved of any need to do it now because the game is "finished".

At some point, developing new content has to take a backseat to fixing something as fundamental is your RNG in a game that's so severely driven by gear.

I know you're saying you aren't defending trendys lack of action, but you've been pretty steadfast in that they need to be able to move on to their new project, even going so far as to say they just have to "Live and learn". But to be perfectly blunt, when you take money for an unfinished project (Shards DLC) and then let these fundamental errors pass through your development and support, you've taken a sharp turn from "Live and Learn" street and zoomed on down "Cut and Run" drive.

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I understand that it takes time, I do. The lack of action is quite blatant, though. This game is not as perfect as it could be, and I believe that they are truly capable of accomplishing this if they were willing to go above and beyond the what is a 'passable' game. I'm not sure what they are doing, but it definitely isn't trying to provide the best possible finished product, and that doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

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