Late game bug/RNG fixing

I actually just now read this thread because I wasn't a big fan of going back to open, but it sounds absolutely amazing. If a handful of DD players carry the torch once Trendy passes it, I can see myself playing for years. What stage is this project currently in? Haven't been on the forums regularly for a bit.

Trendy needs to update TC data for this to be truly viable in the short term. Everything in the intended changes has/can be done to some extent (still not entirely sure how much can be done about armour/weapon ratio).

I'm just collecting data atm on changing the base GoNegative chance. Data will be tabulated and made available as soon as I get a few more points so we can get some sensible discussion on what to change it to

personally think Copter Ogres should have either more health OR more damage than normal ogres, but not both, which would still make them an issue (and maybe a reduction in the health lost if they fall, 50% instead maybe?)

could the range that the Copters shoot from be adjusted? rather than their flight height or shoot time or anything (they should still fly lower and shoot slower, though)

would be nice if everything was sorted into pools for drops (so it could work like the accessories do currently) and the pools be adjusted based on the amount of classes in the game that use different weapons (that would probably a lot more coding than it's worth though)

edit: and what would be really nice was that if some of these fixes were proven to work and work well for balance that they could be included into the Ranked game someday, xD

[QUOTE]could the range that the Copters shoot from be adjusted? rather than their flight height or shoot time or anything (they should still fly lower and shoot slower, though)[/QUOTE]Well, lowering attack range by extension makes them fly lower because they have to get closer to be in range.

except for when they sit there and don't attack (which I admit is not that often at all) so yes, you are correct :)

I didn't see it listed there, but a friend and I were talking about how deflated mana is, would it be possible to modify all in game values to 10% of current? So the cap would still be 600m but it be worth what 6bil currently is. Having to not upgrade an item every 2-3 rounds would be a godsend, and I also think it would help restore some semblance of sanity to the economy - seeing as how we'd all have to use/store 1/10th of the current mana to perform the same upgrades, etc.

Not sure if it really belongs in here, but that's definately a feature I would love to have, rather then cranking the mana caps higher, which would devalue mana even more. Instead making mana worth more, by making the costs and rates you aquire it 1/10th would be about right, as far as I can tell.

Instead making mana worth more, by making the costs and rates you aquire it 1/10th would be about right, as far as I can tell.

And here we are trying to reduce grind :p

Mana would be worth a lot more if more was needed for upgrading (ie. getting better items with reasonable frequency). The fact that its next to worthless in high end trading is mostly due to anyone at that level having a huge income but next to no outgoings (ie. supply vs. demand).

I cant remember the last time I spent serious mana on upgrading a piece of armour :(

As CrzyRndm said, cutting all mana into a 10th of what it does doesn't alter the overall value of mana, because it affects everybody and thus everybody is still earning mana in the same porportions as they were before. The only thing it really does is let you carry more mana value before you need to store/spend it.

Well, part of what makes it a hassle in my mind is how much of my inventory is dedicated to storing it. Perhaps you guys have a different experience, but I find it bothersome having to make sure I have pieces to upgrade laying around - when doing a longer survival run. I was just thinking that by basically compressing mana, it would in turn cause it to be worth more per inventory space - since that seems to be the major limiting factor. Also assuming this mod would work causing great items to be everywhere, being able to store and work with a higher pool of mana would also reduce some headache for me personally. It seems pretty clear to me that the rate at which you aquire mana even at really low stats is a bit absurd with how little you can actually hold/store. Dunno its your mod so do what you want, but I read the community feedback part, my mistake I guess.

Don't have anything to suggest, but looking forward to this! I might get back into the game because of it.

Well, part of what makes it a hassle in my mind is how much of my inventory is dedicated to storing it. Perhaps you guys have a different experience, but I find it bothersome having to make sure I have pieces to upgrade laying around - when doing a longer survival run. I was just thinking that by basically compressing mana, it would in turn cause it to be worth more per inventory space - since that seems to be the major limiting factor. Also assuming this mod would work causing great items to be everywhere, being able to store and work with a higher pool of mana would also reduce some headache for me personally. It seems pretty clear to me that the rate at which you aquire mana even at really low stats is a bit absurd with how little you can actually hold/store. Dunno its your mod so do what you want, but I read the community feedback part, my mistake I guess.

What CrzyRndm is saying is this:

The TC he/us are working on will vastly increase the drop rate of useable gear.

With more useable gear, we'll spend mana faster than before, because we'll be more likely to have items we want to upgrade. Because of this, we'll have a closer ratio of mana in and mana out. amongst other things, that means we won't be using as much storage for mana in this TC, because we'll be spending more mana on upgrading things than before.

As a possible thought- I read that you were wanting to change the copters to be more reasonable for newer players and that some of you were concerned about copters possibly becoming overly trivialized. So here is my thought, but I don't know if you guys could code it.

Is it possible to give the ogre copters about a 4-5 second charge phase (think sharken) and then have them fire off a volley of 4 missles? Have the missles deal about 75% of their current damage but otherwise follow the same aiming system. I think this could be a good addition because while their maximum threat would be increased (the risk of damage compression on sensitive targets) they could also suffer the same interupt mechanics as the djinn do with hero damage (if taking more than, what is it, 10% hp?) their shot volley gets interupted. This could also potentially give use to one of the more useless towers (lightning) which supposedly makes targets it hits flinch.

Again, I'm not sure if any of that is possible to code on your ends, but if it were I think that would allow newer players a way to counter copters even if they lacked the same grade of gear, while still making them a threat to players who didn't try to stop them.

Just read all this, like the sound of the new ideas. Are these actually going to be in a future patch then, or just simply ideas?

When would they be implemented, if they are indeed going to be added. Thanks!

Keep me updated on the progress of this, please.

Just read all this, like the sound of the new ideas. Are these actually going to be in a future patch then, or just simply ideas?

When would they be implemented, if they are indeed going to be added. Thanks!

CrzyRndm will need to correct any of the following if I get it wrong or miss something:

First of all the forum this is posted in is for ongoing work in the DDDK. Besides making new maps, the DDDK allows you to re-write parts of the game. I guess Trendy's intent was to let people create new types of gameplay using the code/resources they have made available (Extremely nice of them). But it also allows you to just make a copy of the game and change as little as you want. In fact you can keep the game the same (vanilla) and not even change a thing.

With Trendy's involvement in their next project, Dundef is witnessing a slow down in patches (i.e. bug fixes / improvements). There have been several topics/threads in the forums are fixes and improvements needed. Some of these even went so far as to write code that would make the fix (i.e. Dingle). So there are still improvements that could make this game better.

So enter CrzyRndm, I guess he got tired of all the talk and has gotten the ball rolling. CrzyRndm has created a total conversion (TC) mod that when released to the general public will be available to be played in Open just like any other TC. His primary goal is to fix various bugs that have been in the game for awhile plus make the RNG loot less frustrating - while not breaking anything nor turning the game into a munchkin-fest. Think of it like a new improved vanilla. Some of the like minded people are contributing with ideas, testing, or code. For example; Dingle has been contributing in the discussion and has provided some of the code fixes. Credit is going to those who who are doing (i.e. coding by CrzyRndm and Dingle). Plus there might even be some really cool stuff that adds to the game (don't know what/if/when/etc.).

It would be great if Trendy at some point decided to roll the bug fixes and improvements made in the TC into the officially released game so Ranked play could also benefit from the hard work by CrzyRndm, Dingle, and others... but if it doesn't happen then at least it would be available on Open.

[QUOTE]- Doing something about the armour/weapon ratio.[/QUOTE]Players already have some control over this by playing specific classes. My understanding of what happens here though is for each different hero type that joins, that hero's weapons are added to the global drops, which drowns out the armor. A "cheap" way to fix this though would be to add duplicate armor entries to the global loot pool.

To increase the possibility that your fix-quest will be noticed, my personal suggestion would be to isolate the most critical fixes (e.g. RNG, generic negative, etc) from the rest of the stuff you're considering- that is, release and test this stuff seperately.

Players already have some control over this by playing specific classes. My understanding of what happens here though is for each different hero type that joins, that hero's weapons are added to the global drops, which drowns out the armor. A "cheap" way to fix this though would be to add duplicate armor entries to the global loot pool.

To increase the possibility that your fix-quest will be noticed, my personal suggestion would be to isolate the most critical fixes (e.g. RNG, generic negative, etc) from the rest of the stuff you're considering- that is, release and test this stuff seperately.

I'm pretty sure that only a small select portion of all the items suggested are being worked at this time. And that testing is occuring to check everything to avoid any new bugs due to the fixes.

EDIT: adding... "baby steps, baby steps"

I'm pretty sure that only a small select portion of all the items suggested are being worked at this time. And that testing is occuring to check everything to avoid any new bugs due to the fixes.

This, except not this week. My free time just went to 0 -.-

I'm testing currently... I'll add notes & updates to a text file titled "test results -"+[date in yyyy-mm-dd format].

I'll test some more tomorrow night.

I will be following this closely, and I can't tell you guys how much this warms my heart to see. If I had more free time, I would offer my services to help. I haven't coded for more than a decade, but then again you've made quite a bit of progress despite not having intimate knowledge of the game's coding yourself. And at the least, this goes along with the community spirit that has helped this game thrive so well. To say, "I support you and wish you luck," seems an understatement - but I'll say it anyways. ^_^

I may not have much experience coding but I do have free time a plenty. If you could tell me how to help test some of this I could hop on over to open and try and see how its all working (or at least whichever parts you send me are working)

This is awesome, keep up the good work. I wish I could help, but I haven't done anything in programming since High School back in the 90s :( Used to be good at it, wish I kept up with it. I used to make some pretty neat Half life maps and skins back when it was still wonids and before steam.

The thing is, it DOES make them irrelevant. NM still works just fine. Take down the copters and the ogres become weaker. That's the counter.

I haven't read all of the other posts, so maybe this has already been mentioned, but in theory copter ogres sound good.

They carry a stronger ogre that you can severely weaken shooting down the copter. Sounds okay. But in practice they're a mess. You have them all over the place, and if you're playing solo you don't have the time to shoot them all down because you can't be in all those places at once.

Not to mention that monks' ranged weapons will barely scratch a high flying copter due to the spread. You'd need a jester with a pawn shot, kryt or eternia canon to effectively deal with them. And then you're sacrificing the utility of the monk or barbarian.

On a map that's still actually challenging copters are just plain cheap.

Not to mention that the missiles still go over reflect and they still fly out of defense range and so there are still plenty of times where you can't even upgrade defenses because they will send a volley of missiles at you for at least 20 seconds straight.

And the summoner has made spiders completely irrelevant but no one seems to care about that. You don't even need to plan for spiders in any special way because your minions will take care of them no matter how you place them. For sharken and djinn you at least have to give a little thought to gas trap placement.

[QUOTE]You have them all over the place, and if you're playing solo you don't have the time to shoot them all down because you can't be in all those places at once. [/QUOTE]Easily addressed by reducing their number, the copter's HP, and the oger dropping threshold. The ogre is still threatening, but only if you allow it to be.

Indeed, but in most maps the number of copgres is about the double of the number of normal ogres.

I always notice 10 copgres running around while one-shotting a single normal ogre.

Reducing their numbers would mean putting them to less than the number of normal ogres, I suggest 1/3 or something like that.