Tower Animation Delays

Some explanation is probably in order here.
The number you see on tower info as the time between shots dosen't include:
A) The time for the firing animation to play (what these numbers are about)
B) The frame required to get a target (0.02s)

B/c the animation scales with your stats, the added delay from it isn't fixed. This is me playing around to find an equation that gives the true RoF for some towers depending on the one you get shown ingame.

Key:
Stat tested: The Rate stat that these numbers correspond to
Reported Rate: The number shown on the ingame display
Times for 10 shots: The time between the first projectile and the eleventh (10 animations). Repeated 8 times
Average time per shot: The average of the middle 6 values (max and min are discarded), divided by 10
Difference: (Average time per shot) - (Reported Rate)
Actual difference: (Difference) - (0.02) [targeting frame]
Multiplier: 1 + (Actual Difference) / (Reported Rate)

Harpoons
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]50[/td][td]0.86[/td][td]12.11[/td][td]12.35[/td][td]12.23[/td][td]12.34[/td][td]12.29[/td][td]12.22[/td][td]12.24[/td][td]12.30[/td][td]1.23[/td][td]0.37[/td][td]0.35[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]374[/td][td]0.40[/td][td]5.83[/td][td]5.76[/td][td]5.83[/td][td]5.70[/td][td]5.89[/td][td]5.78[/td][td]5.71[/td][td]5.78[/td][td]0.58[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]767[/td][td]0.30[/td][td]4.45[/td][td]4.50[/td][td]4.58[/td][td]4.52[/td][td]4.38[/td][td]4.40[/td][td]4.38[/td][td]4.33[/td][td]0.44[/td][td]0.14[/td][td]0.12[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Harpoon) = reported * 1.4 + 0.02 [frame required to aquire target]

Bowling ball
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]26[/td][td]0.76[/td][td]12.85[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.97[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.93[/td][td]13.00[/td][td]12.92[/td][td]1.29[/td][td]0.53[/td][td]0.51[/td][td]1.67[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]329[/td][td]0.30[/td][td]5.45[/td][td]5.47[/td][td]5.46[/td][td]5.51[/td][td]5.44[/td][td]5.45[/td][td]5.46[/td][td]5.51[/td][td]0.55[/td][td]0.25[/td][td]0.23[/td][td]1.76[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1141[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.64[/td][td]3.65[/td][td]3.52[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]0.36[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]1.88[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Bowler) = Some curve. Looks like a 1/x type (x = reported, y=multiplier)
Wrong number somewhere Trendy? The other two are linear right into 2k stats.
Fireball
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]72[/td][td]0.73[/td][td]9.81[/td][td]9.87[/td][td]9.90[/td][td]9.88[/td][td]9.84[/td][td]9.72[/td][td]9.84[/td][td]9.78[/td][td]0.98[/td][td]0.25[/td][td]0.23[/td][td]1.32[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]209[/td][td]0.45[/td][td]6.16[/td][td]6.20[/td][td]6.08[/td][td]6.22[/td][td]6.16[/td][td]6.10[/td][td]6.17[/td][td]6.08[/td][td]0.61[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]0.14[/td][td]1.32[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Fireball) = Reported * 1.32 + 0.02

Only two test points for Fb's b/c the shots start blending together visually any higher, and I really dont want to wait >5s per shot for a lower point...

So, Trendy should either fix the display to what it actually is or speed them up to how they show.

Hopefully the latter.

Rate of fire shouldn't take into consideration the time it takes to fire the projectile.

The rate of fire is how fast it will be between complete animations and launches and the next animation and launch.

So, Trendy should either fix the display to what it actually is or speed them up to how they show.

Hopefully the latter.

Speeding them up will buff all physical towers by anything up to 100%, and will wreck balance between towers b/c they will all be buffed by different amounts.

Rate of fire shouldn't take into consideration the time it takes to fire the projectile.

The rate of fire is how fast it will be between complete animations and launches and the next animation and launch.

I assume you mean RoF = time for a single complete cycle.

Rate of fire shouldn't take into consideration the time it takes to fire the projectile.

The rate of fire is how fast it will be between complete animations and launches and the next animation and launch.

Well when your towers are firing fast enough to the point it doesn't display an animation anymore...

And the firing rate is still misleading, to many who wouldn't know this.

It needs to be changed to what it really is.

Speeding them up will buff all physical towers by anything up to 100%, and will wreck balance between towers b/c they will all be buffed by different amounts.

Sorry about that, wasn't necessarily serious. I agree it would be unbalanced, but then people wouldn't be complaining about NM being too hard now would they?

Speeding them up will buff all physical towers by anything up to 100%, and will wreck balance between towers b/c they will all be buffed by different amounts.

I assume you mean RoF = time for a single complete cycle.

RoF should only be the time it takes to launch the projectile, not including the animation time.

RoF should only be the time it takes to launch the projectile, not including the animation time.

No, Rate of fire is how often it fires including everything
Not just the interval. If the RoF is .20 I should be getting 5 shots per second not 4.x but 5 that is what it is no excuses .

No, Rate of fire is how often it fires including everything
Not just the interval. If the RoF is .20 I should be getting 5 shots per second not 4.x but 5 that is what it is no excuses .

That's your opinion.

RoF is the time it takes to launch a projectile. That's more than likely what the stats display.

A) Currently the stats show the delay between animations.
B) The first post is about the time for the animation which is additional to (A) but not shown
C) The wording on the stat window ("Attack Rate") implies to me that it is the time for a complete cycle (ie. one delay + one animation).

A,B, or C classic. Your wording is just not processing right tonight:confused:

I think I am being very very clear.

Two things happen.

1. The animation
2. Firing of the projectile

RoF is only the time it takes to fire the projectile. It does not include the animation. Hope that clears it up.

That's my opinion on how it should work.

I'm of the opinion Rate of Fire should be the complete cycle, as others stated, because most people would assume Rate of Fire would be directly relevant to the amount of times you can shoot in a given time frame, with an Attack Rate of .10 seconds, most would assume that means I can shoot once every .10 seconds, which you don't agree with?

edit: removed argument, not constructive.

the Attack Rate written as it is now is misleading a lot of people

I think I am being very very clear.

Not trying to be annoying or anything. Had an all-nighter on Friday and things are still slightly fuzzy...

I think I am being very very clear.

Two things happen.

1. The animation
2. Firing of the projectile

RoF is only the time it takes to fire the projectile. It does not include the animation. Hope that clears it up.

That's my opinion on how it should work.

3 things are actually happening. one is the tower attack animation, the second is the firing of the projectile, and the third is the refresh timer. what crzy is saying is that the displayed stat in the tower delve is ONLY the refresh timer, which is why a lot of people say it is misleading, because "attack rate" literally means how often the tower should attack. since with like, 1500 rate stat, MM towers have a listed attack rate of .06 seconds, most people would assume that the magic missile tower attacks ~16 times per second. this is clearly not the case though.

whatever you want to call it, attack rate or rate of fire, they are synonymous, and literally means the frequency at which the tower should attack within a given time frame. which is why on automatic weapons they list rate of fire as RPS or RPM (rounds per second/minute). what the in-game tower delves are currently listing is the equivalent to listing the time it takes for the gas expansion of a spent round's blowback to reset the firing pin, which is not accurate at all because it doesnt include how long it takes for the spring in the clip to chamber another round or how long it takes for the firing pin to move forward and strike the round or how long it takes for the gun powder to completely ignite and propel the bullet from the muzzle.

all of those things have to be accounted for to give an accurate of fire, and the in-game delve currently does not account for their in-game contemporaries.

[c3;629717']3 things are actually happening. one is the tower attack animation, the second is the firing of the projectile, and the third is the refresh timer. what crzy is saying is that the displayed stat in the tower delve is ONLY the refresh timer, which is why a lot of people say it is misleading, because "attack rate" literally means how often the tower should attack. since with like, 1500 rate stat, MM towers have a listed attack rate of .06 seconds, most people would assume that the magic missile tower attacks ~16 times per second. this is clearly not the case though.

whatever you want to call it, attack rate or rate of fire, they are synonymous, and literally means the frequency at which the tower should attack within a given time frame. which is why on automatic weapons they list rate of fire as RPS or RPM (rounds per second/minute). what the in-game tower delves are currently listing is the equivalent to listing the time it takes for the gas expansion of a spent round's blowback to reset the firing pin, which is not accurate at all because it doesnt include how long it takes for the spring in the clip to chamber another round or how long it takes for the firing pin to move forward and strike the round or how long it takes for the gun powder to completely ignite and propel the bullet from the muzzle.

all of those things have to be accounted for to give an accurate of fire, and the in-game delve currently does not account for their in-game contemporaries.

^- this.
This is RoF you can think different but then you are wrong
The game does currently not show RoF at all.
Delay + Target frame + animation + whatever I am missing makes for the RoF . You can disagree classic but if you do you are certainly NOT using logic you can say you do but you are not

RoF is only the time it takes to fire the projectile. It does not include the animation. Hope that clears it up.

That's my opinion on how it should work.

I can't imagine how this could possibly be the way it should work. I have never seen ANY game talk about the speed of a weapon in any other terms than shot to shot. By making the attack rate be only part of the equation, and not even displaying the other half, it makes that statistic useless.

If you ask someone how fast an Uzi shoots, they say "600 rounds a minute" or "a bullet every 0.1 seconds". They don't say, "There is a 0.03 second delay somewhere in the firing cycle" and then refuse to give you any other information.

Nobody playing the game cares that there is a tower animation and a tower firing delay. We just want to know, how fast can this thing shoot? We don't want to spend hours running Orge Crush with a stopwatch trying to figure out hidden variables to know how to invest points in a new piece of armor we spent 10 days grinding for.

So MY opinion is when a tower says it has an attack rate of 0.15 seconds but it's REALLY 2.50 seconds... that's just wrong. Why even list that delay rate if it's not even close to reality?

Rate of Fire, not Rate of Time Between Animations.

No offense, but I can't imagine you could find 1 in 100 people who think that showing completely incorrect numbers is how it should work.

Okay so some explanation I posted in an older thread, "there needs to be a limit on some of the towers otherwise they can cause massive performance issues if let go at full speed. So you'll have more DPS if let go but the game will be unplayable especially if used on a busy map. The damage is balanced out though even with the limit so it's not that bad of a situation and are still useful towers at all stages of the game. "

So there won't be any change to how it currently functions as it works how it is and the animation cap is taken into the balance for the towers. Numbers are numbers and while it may cause a bit of confusion with your DPS/stats it overall isn't that big of an issue. Quite a bit of changes would need to be done in order to correct this and the only thing that would be gained is showing of correct numbers, not more DPS since it would need to be rebalanced to do the exact same as it was before hand.

Thank you for the post but as stated a few times in the past it probably isn't going to be changed.

Thank you for the post but as stated a few times in the past it probably isn't going to be changed.

Wasn't expecting you to change it at this late stage. Just providing info and satisfying my curiosity.

Is the bowler meant to scale a little better though? Currently the animation isn't a fixed multiplier on the numbers like every other tower which is kind of odd

...If you ask someone how fast an Uzi shoots, they say "600 rounds a minute" or "a bullet every 0.1 seconds". They don't say, "There is a 0.03 second delay somewhere in the firing cycle" and then refuse to give you any other information.

Nobody playing the game cares that there is a tower animation and a tower firing delay. We just want to know, how fast can this thing shoot? We don't want to spend hours running Orge Crush with a stopwatch trying to figure out hidden variables to know how to invest points in a new piece of armor we spent 10 days grinding for.

So MY opinion is when a tower says it has an attack rate of 0.15 seconds but it's REALLY 2.50 seconds... that's just wrong. Why even list that delay rate if it's not even close to reality?

Rate of Fire, not Rate of Time Between Animations.

No offense, but I can't imagine you could find 1 in 100 people who think that showing completely incorrect numbers is how it should work.

No offense; and I'm only posting this because it made me laugh a bit, but those who say an Uzi shoots 600 rounds a minute are completely off base. You can get 600 rounds a minute theoritically... but realistically you will never see that. Largest clip is 50 rounds, largest drum is 100 rounds. Magazine ejection and swap out time eats into that minute. Barrel over-heat is also an issue. {all rof and magazine/drum loadout capacity values are for 9mm - 45cal is a bit smaller/slower}.

So just like in real life; consider the attack rate to be theoritical - but real game values is different.

EDIT: and yes - everyone states that 600 rounds a minute is the ROF. and everyone knows it isn't what you see when you use it. But the # of bullets / sec excluding reload/cool down is more accurate as long as you mention the exclusions. You can also think of the animation delay in the same light as reload and/or cool down. So the attack rate is the same as automatic weapon's ROF - both are theoritical.

No offense; and I'm only posting this because it made me laugh a bit, but those who say an Uzi shoots 600 rounds a minute are completely off base. You can get 600 rounds a minute theoritically... but realistically you will never see that. Largest clip is 50 rounds, largest drum is 100 rounds. Magazine ejection and swap out time eats into that minute. Barrel over-heat is also an issue. {all rof and magazine/drum loadout capacity values are for 9mm - 45cal is a bit smaller/slower}.

So just like in real life; consider the attack rate to be theoritical - but real game values is different.

EDIT: and yes - everyone states that 600 rounds a minute is the ROF. and everyone knows it isn't what you see when you use it. But the # of bullets / sec excluding reload/cool down is more accurate as long as you mention the exclusions. You can also think of the animation delay in the same light as reload and/or cool down. So the attack rate is the same as automatic weapon's ROF - both are theoritical.

Isn't there 1 big difference though? An Uzi has that attack rate until the clip size is empty, but towers will never show their attack rate.

Good question.

I only jumped in because the comparison was using something I am familiar with and have experience with, and I have always found theoritical rates of fire for weapons quite off the mark in real life. So lets see if this all still applies; an uzi does have that rate of fire until the clip is empty and given a cool barrel/chamber mechanism to start with. Towers don't have clips/drums nor do they over heat. So honestly the comparison is a stretch to begin with and my comments don't change that.

I guess my point was that when people quote ROF for weapons they are theoritical, and I have always considered the tower's rate listings to be theoritical (because even as early as last Oct/Nov players have noted the animation pause effect). So as long as the basis is all the same, then you can compare the weapons fairly - you just won't see those rates of fire in real (or game) use. So what CrzyRndm has done (though I wouldn't have gone that far) is more accurate. And IceArrow's explanation about the PC performance issue completely makes sense - and explains the why better than I have ever seen.

Okay so some explanation I posted in an older thread, "there needs to be a limit on some of the towers otherwise they can cause massive performance issues if let go at full speed. So you'll have more DPS if let go but the game will be unplayable especially if used on a busy map. The damage is balanced out though even with the limit so it's not that bad of a situation and are still useful towers at all stages of the game. "

So there won't be any change to how it currently functions as it works how it is and the animation cap is taken into the balance for the towers. Numbers are numbers and while it may cause a bit of confusion with your DPS/stats it overall isn't that big of an issue. Quite a bit of changes would need to be done in order to correct this and the only thing that would be gained is showing of correct numbers, not more DPS since it would need to be rebalanced to do the exact same as it was before hand.

Thank you for the post but as stated a few times in the past it probably isn't going to be changed.

ah! thanks for clarifying

the lag is still there with apprentice towers though, even with a 12core 3.2Ghz GTX 680 & 16GB of ram my comp struggles to keep up with fireballs/magic missiles

(same deal with inferno traps, but not as much as apprentice towers)

would it be possible to optimize the projectiles? use LOD on them? if you haven't already (unreal cascade should have that)

Cipher

Okay so some explanation I posted in an older thread, "there needs to be a limit on some of the towers otherwise they can cause massive performance issues if let go at full speed. So you'll have more DPS if let go but the game will be unplayable especially if used on a busy map. The damage is balanced out though even with the limit so it's not that bad of a situation and are still useful towers at all stages of the game. "

So there won't be any change to how it currently functions as it works how it is and the animation cap is taken into the balance for the towers. Numbers are numbers and while it may cause a bit of confusion with your DPS/stats it overall isn't that big of an issue. Quite a bit of changes would need to be done in order to correct this and the only thing that would be gained is showing of correct numbers, not more DPS since it would need to be rebalanced to do the exact same as it was before hand.

Thank you for the post but as stated a few times in the past it probably isn't going to be changed.

I'm necroing this, because I was going to start a new topic, but then found this, and this seems a better place to post then starting a new thread.

Although what you mention would be possible, there's a much easier solution. Instead of re-balancing all the fire-rates, you (in the general sense) could just tweak the displayed numbers. It's very possible the turret already knows how long it takes to run both animations, but even if it doesn't, you could just add the measured "base-reload time" to the displayed number, fixing this without actually changing the balance at all.

As a second, less satisfying option, you could change "Fire Rate" to "Reload time" so at least people have a better chance of realizing that the numbers they are looking at aren't the real fire-rate.

Please do not bump old posts.

Feel free to create your own thread on the said matter in the Suggestions section of the forums.

Thank you!


/Closed