Apprentice pity?

Harps 40%:
If harp has reported time of 1s between shots, its actual Rate is 1.4s between shots.

Wow, that's huge. Changes my perception of harps significantly. Any info on fbs?

That is not entirely what I meant... in regards to if you have exactly 6 DU left over. I meant that if you are DU limited and you need either App or Squire towers to deal with the Ogre then it is better to take a harpoon at a 1 DU cost increase and place them at each section then a fireball tower. At current there is no other offensive tower that can be produced for 1 DU so you would have no way of bumping up the dmg if you used fireball towers at each location unless you used 2-3+ DU extra per location. If you actually could spare 2-3 extra DU per location then a trap/beam would be far more effective when coupled with a fireball tower then a harpoon at each location so long as you are not getting more then 3 ogre and are willing to maintain something like a proxy or beam.

So ... I see no conflict to what you and I said in this new rephrasing. It depends on enemy positioning and dus available.

The max amount of mana you can hold is 1820... not sure if you were indicating picking up 100 more for a 1-star + 3 star upgrade in one go. I will take the assumption this is what you meant.

You're right. I was confused, and this was not a valid point. I usually fire my Krytykal (for range) between some upgrades to keep the genie cycling, so don't really notice if it lines up or not.

I DO agree that fireballs have a place. For players with lower end stats (where they lack strong crowd control of trash mobs from aura/traps, or in maps that have less pileup issues and can afford spare DU for something like a proxy/beam at each location to assist with Ogre (in which case their value of dps per DU is worthwhile) then fireballs come ahead of harps. They are just lacking along with MM in most situations.

Not just lower-end. I use them in high-end. I also do not agree with "most situations" because "most" is dependent on what maps you play. Fireballs are the only thing that work well for me on Crystalline Dimension nm map 3. I also like to jam fireballs in front of the Aquanos south crystal (though you have to build the EV wall skillfully to prevent ogre swiping (because it is very close!). I can believe that in most maps with the way you build and the stats you have, that harps work better. I think you can at least acknowledge that you don't know if with other builds and different stats, fbs or fb+harp work better because they have comparable damage and abilities to harps (and a lot of people say it works better for them). Personally, I use harps a lot more, but I also use fireballs.

I still find it hard to believe a Jester can compete with an App at upgrading when he has a decent overcharge stat... but as I have not tested one at 1.5k+ I can't argue it. If you are right then I totally intend to aim for that goal on my jester. Can anyone confirm this point in regards to upgrade speed (that is also familiar with App overcharge upgrade spamming). Afterall.. that .3 sec upgrade vs that .8 second really adds up when you perform some 50-100+ ups in a given wave so I am definitely curious.

This is one of those things where you have to test it in practice rather than rely on numbers because your speed at completely upgrading a choke is limited not just by stats but by your crystal gathering speed on a given map, genie cycle, and genie mana production amount. Both the map and weapon you use will also influence the distance you need to move (I use a Krytykal because its range goes across the map allowing me to genie cycle even when upgrading back harps/fbs).

Harps 40%:
If harp has reported time of 1s between shots, its actual Rate is 1.4s between shots.

gotcha duder. so i am to assume then that the actual rate for a bowler that has a display of say, .12 ( think that is what mine is) actually has an attack rate of .24? cause it definitely feels like it is faster.

Wow, that's huge. Changes my perception of harps significantly. Any info on fbs?

Not currently. It takes a while to do it accurately (stopwatch + counting shots...), and the only reason I know about the harps accurately is b/c of this thread (contains my data on harps too. Just start at post 4 for real info >.>)

EDIT

I have time now, so while I think about it I'll do Fb's and bowlers. MMT's isn't going to happen due to rapid RoF making it hard to count.

EDIT2

Oh great. Things just got more complicated.

Bowlers don't have a direct multiplier, but get less accurate (increasing delay) as your RoF increases. It's not linear either :mad:

EDIT3

Numbers Time

NOTE: Averages exclude the highest and lowest values (ie. of the 8 values, only the middle 6 are included in the averaging)

Harpoons
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]50[/td][td]0.86[/td][td]12.11[/td][td]12.35[/td][td]12.23[/td][td]12.34[/td][td]12.29[/td][td]12.22[/td][td]12.24[/td][td]12.30[/td][td]1.23[/td][td]0.37[/td][td]0.35[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]374[/td][td]0.40[/td][td]5.83[/td][td]5.76[/td][td]5.83[/td][td]5.70[/td][td]5.89[/td][td]5.78[/td][td]5.71[/td][td]5.78[/td][td]0.58[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]767[/td][td]0.30[/td][td]4.45[/td][td]4.50[/td][td]4.58[/td][td]4.52[/td][td]4.38[/td][td]4.40[/td][td]4.38[/td][td]4.33[/td][td]0.44[/td][td]0.14[/td][td]0.12[/td][td]1.40[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Harpoon) = reported * 1.4 + 0.02 [frame required to aquire target]

Bowling ball
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]26[/td][td]0.76[/td][td]12.85[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.97[/td][td]12.91[/td][td]12.93[/td][td]13.00[/td][td]12.92[/td][td]1.29[/td][td]0.53[/td][td]0.51[/td][td]1.67[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]329[/td][td]0.30[/td][td]5.45[/td][td]5.47[/td][td]5.46[/td][td]5.51[/td][td]5.44[/td][td]5.45[/td][td]5.46[/td][td]5.51[/td][td]0.55[/td][td]0.25[/td][td]0.23[/td][td]1.76[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1141[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.64[/td][td]3.65[/td][td]3.52[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]3.58[/td][td]0.36[/td][td]0.18[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]1.88[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Bowler) = Some curve. Looks like a 1/x type (x = reported, y=multiplier)

Fireball
[table]
[tr]
[td]Stat Tested[/td][td]Reported Rate[/td][td]Times for 10 shots[/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td][/td][td]Average time per shot[/td][td]Difference[/td][td]Actual Difference[/td][td]Multiplier[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]72[/td][td]0.73[/td][td]9.81[/td][td]9.87[/td][td]9.90[/td][td]9.88[/td][td]9.84[/td][td]9.72[/td][td]9.84[/td][td]9.78[/td][td]0.98[/td][td]0.25[/td][td]0.23[/td][td]1.32[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]209[/td][td]0.45[/td][td]6.16[/td][td]6.20[/td][td]6.08[/td][td]6.22[/td][td]6.16[/td][td]6.10[/td][td]6.17[/td][td]6.08[/td][td]0.61[/td][td]0.16[/td][td]0.14[/td][td]1.32[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
True RoF (Fireball) = Reported * 1.32 + 0.02

Only two test points for Fb's b/c the shots start blending together visually any higher, and I really dont want to wait >5s per shot for a lower point...

Did you say you are using a stop watch for this? If so might I suggest recording a video and comparing the time via the video timeline. It would be quite a bit more accurate. It may also help with MMT.

Wow, that's huge. Changes my perception of harps significantly. Any info on fbs?


So ... I see no conflict to what you and I said in this new rephrasing. It depends on enemy positioning and dus available.


You're right. I was confused, and this was not a valid point. I usually fire my Krytykal (for range) between some upgrades to keep the genie cycling, so don't really notice if it lines up or not.


Not just lower-end. I use them in high-end. I also do not agree with "most situations" because "most" is dependent on what maps you play. Fireballs are the only thing that work well for me on Crystalline Dimension nm map 3. I also like to jam fireballs in front of the Aquanos south crystal (though you have to build the EV wall skillfully to prevent ogre swiping (because it is very close!). I can believe that in most maps with the way you build and the stats you have, that harps work better. I think you can at least acknowledge that you don't know if with other builds and different stats, fbs or fb+harp work better because they have comparable damage and abilities to harps (and a lot of people say it works better for them). Personally, I use harps a lot more, but I also use fireballs.


This is one of those things where you have to test it in practice rather than rely on numbers because your speed at completely upgrading a choke is limited not just by stats but by your crystal gathering speed on a given map, genie cycle, and genie mana production amount. Both the map and weapon you use will also influence the distance you need to move (I use a Krytykal because its range goes across the map allowing me to genie cycle even when upgrading back harps/fbs).

I would say fireballs could be comparable, and flat out superior, if not for the way ogres line up instead of spreading out. If not for this one reason fireballs would most definitely be better. If Trendy would fix the pathing of ogres... it would really give the App a place to finally shine. This, of course, is not straight forward due to the way A* works (diagnals ftl) that prevents them from spreading more then two and sometimes three (or the wall is at a significant angle) unless a long line is made. This is why I do not think it is dependent on what maps you play, because of the physical limitations that occur due to pathing. I also don't feel that corners ever actually give a worthwhile advantage with FB in almost any situation unless you are lower end stats in which case your fireball tower may seriously be assisting with trash clearing (if needed for trash+ogre clearing they are great).

Look forward to seeing what you guys come up with concerning attack rates.

Yes, all were done with stopwatch. Recording anything kills my framerate making times between shots inconsistent :/

Given that stopwatch isn't the greatest, most of these times have a spread < 0.2 seconds, which is +/- 0.01 on the actual shot time. Accurate enough for me :p

I'm going to fiddle with extra low stats for MMT's. Should be enough

Have you got a quad core CPU? If so try playclaw sometime. It has strong multi-core support and may be much easier on your FPS. You can also make sure you are at no compression or lowest compression setting possible to further ease CPU burden. For test sake you can even lower resolution/graphical settings temporarily to record video.

Thanks CrzyRndm. This is good info.

Maybe we could convince a DDDK mapmaker to make an Assault-like map with a grid of 100 mil hp ogres stuck in holes, complete with the timer that's present on that map. You could then make whatever tower you want to test, and the rate could be calculated given the time it takes to do 100 mil damage and the damage per hit. The grid would allow splash damage to be calculate as well.

By the way, does anyone use bowlings in nm? The only place I've used it in recent memory is on Palantir campaign (nw, where the ogres will stop 3ft from the wall and smash it if harps are occupied).

I think someone could just tweak ogre crush to have 40-50 times the hp it does? I'm not entirely sure how to do that or I would fool with it, also shock beam is OP.
With ~1k tower boost http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/541810680962803483/5992BA36BFEDFFD09616502CD8F5CDC2E863A6BB/
Without http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/541810680962805868/6E586BC1F7221681D9080227F19CD8C76B53DFA2/

Thanks CrzyRndm. This is good info.

Maybe we could convince a DDDK mapmaker to make an Assault-like map with a grid of 100 mil hp ogres stuck in holes, complete with the timer that's present on that map. You could then make whatever tower you want to test, and the rate could be calculated given the time it takes to do 100 mil damage and the damage per hit. The grid would allow splash damage to be calculate as well.

By the way, does anyone use bowlings in nm? The only place I've used it in recent memory is on Palantir campaign (nw, where the ogres will stop 3ft from the wall and smash it if harps are occupied).

I don't use bowling balls ever in NM mainly because they don't hit flyers/Djinn (which you see both out the *** when in MM) and their inability to turn (which I feel is too useful to lose out on in many maps where they can cross cover eachother). The only real gain that a Bowler gets it slightly faster fire rate... very very slightly. Other then that the knock back doesn't mean anything vs ogre and is pointless when mobs die at traps/auras. DU cost isn't worth it either, imo. Again this is with limited usage of them because... honestly I haven't seen any potential for them at current. Perhaps someone else knows a worthwhile tactic involving them.

I think someone could just tweak ogre crush to have 40-50 times the hp it does? I'm not entirely sure how to do that or I would fool with it, also shock beam is OP.
With ~1k tower boost http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/541810680962803483/5992BA36BFEDFFD09616502CD8F5CDC2E863A6BB/
Without http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/541810680962805868/6E586BC1F7221681D9080227F19CD8C76B53DFA2/

Must... test... this... May render harps/FB almost entirely useless in many situations. o.o

EDIT: After testing the shock beam in both NM and non-NM it seems that screenshot is faked (edited/or another dmg source).
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198030465341/screenshot/542936580897474788
They are no where near that cool... :/

What are the stats on your builders?

Messing around in Local I got 3500 Beam Damage and a 3-star shock beam only does 288k damage. How high do you need to get 562k?

The cycle time on Shock Beams lies. The animation is a bit over 2 seconds so the cycle time is much, much slower than the stats say.

What are the stats on your builders?

Messing around in Local I got 3500 Beam Damage and a 3-star shock beam only does 288k damage. How high do you need to get 562k?

Read my above edit. Screenshot he posted is fake.

Its not faked, its a 3 star shock in a 3 star beam on NM, here's my EV's stats. I even show myself looking at the beam on them? The first was with boost, second without. The shock beam is VERY particular about being buffed, you have to have the end of the shock inside the buff to get it buffed.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055861755/screenshot/541810680977159974

shock beams do get pretty ridiculous. im more of a fan of just doubling up on proton beams though. with my EV active with 1900 tower attack, on a buff beam they do over 400k a second. with tower boost up, over 1 million. 2 of them is over 2 million per second. its pretty nice.

i havent checked my shock beams, but i know on a buff beam non active at 1600 attack they were in the 250K range. active that would put them at what, 335kish? 582k with 3200 attack and active isnt impossible.

Its not faked, its a 3 star shock in a 3 star beam on NM, here's my EV's stats. I even show myself looking at the beam on them? The first was with boost, second without. The shock beam is VERY particular about being buffed, you have to have the end of the shock inside the buff to get it buffed.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055861755/screenshot/541810680977159974

Ok, first I apologize about the fake picture statement I was certain I had it placed on the end, I must have twitched and move it off slightly or something (high sensitivity). The buff beam-shock beam/proton beam interaction is still buggy... assumed they fixed it when they did the walls.

As you showed the shock beam definitely IS amazing. I will definitely look into ways to see how I can make effective use of it. Hopefully they will fix the interaction with buff beam for those two towers. Now you have made it so that I must level another Series EV to use solely for offensive towers. :( Dammit!

On a side note this may make proton beams more worthwhile over proxy traps then if they are properly buffed and they should last MUCH longer. I haven't tested healing a low hp proton.. maybe they heal up really fast compared to proxy as well?

Now imagine that shock beam of yours hitting a webbed group of ogres.

Now imagine that shock beam of yours hitting a webbed group of ogres.

What has webbing got to do with damage?

Have I missed something while I was away.

What has webbing got to do with damage?

Have I missed something while I was away.

Webbed enemies take double dmg. It was something Trendy left out originally but have since fixed a patch or 2 ago. Spiders can now web ogres. Make sure spiders are on buff beams tho when using them at choke points... when not on buff beams they almost never use their web because of how horrid their range is. They are also slightly tankier then archers so they wont be the cause of a buff beam failing.

Webbed enemies take double dmg.

O.o

Time to revise minion placements...

O.o

Time to revise minion placements...

Yep... gets pretty interesting when using spiders with buff beams.

Buff beam on minions effectively = double dmg.
Buff beam on towers effectively = 3x-4x dmg (depending on how it scales with attack rate)
Spiders = double dmg

You end up with quadruple minion dmg and 6x-8x tower dmg. Buff beams and spider minions are just so amazing. *Note: just rough estimates. May actually be more like 5x minion dmg, or slightly lower tower dmg... varying*

Its all good, yeah the photon beam is okay, but I think lit aura / inferno perform that task infinitely better. There is also a bit of an aoe down the entire line of the shock beam too. I actually a tried a towerless aquaros last night starting on 18, but I failed on 27 to a gold fish, gonna have to revise my placements a bit.

Its not faked, its a 3 star shock in a 3 star beam on NM, here's my EV's stats. I even show myself looking at the beam on them? The first was with boost, second without. The shock beam is VERY particular about being buffed, you have to have the end of the shock inside the buff to get it buffed.
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055861755/screenshot/541810680977159974

Hmm. Still not seeing those numbers. Running in a game in Nightmare mode, with 3500 attack and everything three starred I get...

287,376 damage.
658,638 damage boosted.

How can you get double those numbers with 3100 tower damage stat? Is there something else that it depends on?

You have to make sure to put the very end of the shock beam in the buff beam - its very finicky about getting boosted.Try looking at your buff beam to make sure its buffing it - thats probably the problem since mine do around 250k non buff beamed.

Yeah, I got the positioning right.. that's why I got a bit over double the damage with it buffed.

But both sets of numbers are low. Half the damage buffed AND non buffed.

I don't see how he is getting 600k unbuffed with 3000 tower attack.

Whats your SID, I can show you in game if you'd like. Nvm I think I found the right one, only 29 Ionizers, lol.

I started with an apprentice as my first character and while it may not be super amazing with towers or DPS, I use mine as sort of a hybrid. The fireballs with the auras and buffs can really do work because of the splash damage. The harpoons piercing is nice but mixing harpoons and fireballs is the way to go. All of the types are far superior when combined than just solo.

Whats your SID, I can show you in game if you'd like. Nvm I think I found the right one, only 29 Ionizers, lol.

Ok, now I see my problem. I didn't realize you were using Boost Beams AND Monk Tower Boost.

Now everything makes sense again. :-)