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Some abilities not worth having.


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Not sure if this has been covered before, but it seems likely. However, there's always a chance it hasn't, so I'll make one myself. I'll start off with the Barbarian.

Barbarian:
Now you probably already know what I'm going to say, and yes, it's Lightning Stance. Let's be honest, does the Barbarian even need a stun? I wouldn't say so, since it doesn't work on ogres or bosses, meaning the only thing you're going to be able to stun is something useless like a goblin, which will just die in a single hit anyway. On top of that, what's the point in using it if it's just going to kill you within about 3 seconds? That really does puzzle me.

So since the Barbarian is the only hero in the game dedicated to pure DPS, he's missing an AOE attack which could come in quite handy. The idea I have in mind would be to replace Lightning Stance with, well, another Lightning Stance but one which acts totally different and actually has a use.

I've thought things through a little bit and have come up with this:
Make the stance deal damage, but have it all split evenly among all targets within a certain range. So for example, if I did 100,000 damage and there was 10 enemies nearby, they'd all take 10,000 damage each and so on. Now, I've noticed that every stance has its downside, so giving this its downside is quite simple. Just make all the damage dealt lightning damage, meaning it won't affect lightning based creatures. On top of that, I'd recommend the damage output from the hero reduced by a very high amount because if it stayed at 100%, it'd be far too overpowered. So perhaps reduce damage output by about 95%. Yes that's a huge number to reduce it by, but it's meant for AOE damage to kill all the small annoying enemies, so let's make it bad for ogres and other higher health enemies to balance it a bit. Because let's be honest, if the damage output stayed at 100%, everything in that area would die from a single hit or two, since the Barbarian already has huge damage output.


That's the Barbarian covered, so let's move on.

Summoner:
For the summoner I was thinking the Phase Shift. Not the one that goes into birds eye view, the one that just makes you invulnerable. Sure, being invincible is an awesome ability to have, but why do we need it when the birds eye view mode does the same thing, but better? From what I can see, they both do the same thing, make you invincible and able to heal/place units. But why would people choose to run somewhere when they can just do it from any spot?

So my idea for this is quite simple. The Phase Shift which allows you to still control your character, should let you pick up mana, because it's hard enough getting mana for a summoner as it is. We either need to put on Djinnlet pets which sacrifices a lot of our tower stats, or run in and die due to low health and very likely low resistances.

Since being able to get mana as you please, from a crowd of enemies that would usually just result in death is quite a big upgrade to ask for, if possible it'd be a good idea to reduce the value of the mana received on the summoner during Phase Shift by 50% or even 75%. I think if mana value for the Phase Shifting Summoner is reduced, it'd have to mean making for example the 50 mana crystals only give 25 or so mana, since reducing the actual amount the enemy drops could result in graphical issues for the Summoner them self and other players.


That's about all I can think of at the moment. I haven't really played any of the gender switched characters much, so I can't really comment on those.

Anyway, this hasn't been a rant or anything, I just generally think this would definitely be a fair improvement to these characters and appreciated by everyone if they were to be implemented!

Thanks for taking your time to read this, and please, give me your feedback on this and perhaps write about a skill you think could do with an improvement.

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The only thing I will say about Summoner is that you cannot go into overlord when 2boxing (2nd controller) so if you want invulnerability, you MUST use regular phase shift.

So far I've never found anyone who uses Lightning Stance. Battle Leap/Pound is nice to have, but if you really want to deal some damage to bosses everyone uses Hawk Stance.

Initiate, Enemy Drain is lacking because it doesn't affect bosses while Hero Boost is very useful against bosses. Remote Defense Boost...in most NM games I play, the builder doesn't stay out, making it pointless.

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The only thing I will say about Summoner is that you cannot go into overlord when 2boxing (2nd controller) so if you want invulnerability, you MUST use regular phase shift.

So far I've never found anyone who uses Lightning Stance. Battle Leap/Pound is nice to have, but if you really want to deal some damage to bosses everyone uses Hawk Stance.

Initiate, Enemy Drain is lacking because it doesn't affect bosses while Hero Boost is very useful against bosses. Remote Defense Boost...in most NM games I play, the builder doesn't stay out, making it pointless.


In my opinion, I feel I agree with OP, and I think that an ability shouldn't be made useful just because of a simple controller incompatibility... along with that I think the incompatibility SHOULD be fixed, because such a limitation can really hinder a player's control given he/she has an xbox controller.. But beyond that I agree with everything you say! :D

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Mana Bomb for Apprentice. Totally useless and only used if I accidentally press the wrong button.

For 60 seconds cool down and high mana cost, I want it to take the ogres down to at least 50% health and all other creeps dead (when using a high damage weapon and really high dps gear).

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Mana Bomb for Apprentice. Totally useless and only used if I accidentally press the wrong button.

For 60 seconds cool down and high mana cost, I want it to take the ogres down to at least 50% health and all other creeps dead (when using a high damage weapon and really high dps gear).


That and maaaaybe better range scaling.. It's like a reversed purity bomb, which has high range but terrible damage.. Well, mana bomb has terrible damage too, which it shouldn't.

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Boost...in most NM games I play, the builder doesn't stay out, making it pointless.


That's actually not the problem with remote defense boost. Its problem is that it doesn't stack with buff beams.

Imagine doing a survival and leaving your summoner out and having your initiate use it neaby and boosting all minions on the map.

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i like the lightning stance idea
but phase shift is far from useless; you can phase after collecting mana (which is easily obtainable (even with low res) by floating over lanes of enemies), run back to defenses and upgrade
- collecting mana whilst phase shifted would pretty much make summoner invulnerable during combat phase (because you wouldnt need to unphase... ever)

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Mana Bomb for Apprentice. Totally useless and only used if I accidentally press the wrong button.

For 60 seconds cool down and high mana cost, I want it to take the ogres down to at least 50% health and all other creeps dead (when using a high damage weapon and really high dps gear).


If you have a 3k Mana Bomb used at the right place on assault, you could easily one hit all three cores on NMHC. BtW, if you have 3k Stats doing Assault is kinda useless ;)

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Not sure if this has been covered before, but it seems likely. However, there's always a chance it hasn't, so I'll make one myself. I'll start off with the Barbarian.

Barbarian:
Now you probably already know what I'm going to say, and yes, it's Lightning Stance. Let's be honest, does the Barbarian even need a stun? I wouldn't say so, since it doesn't work on ogres or bosses, meaning the only thing you're going to be able to stun is something useless like a goblin, which will just die in a single hit anyway. On top of that, what's the point in using it if it's just going to kill you within about 3 seconds? That really does puzzle me.

So since the Barbarian is the only hero in the game dedicated to pure DPS, he's missing an AOE attack which could come in quite handy. The idea I have in mind would be to replace Lightning Stance with, well, another Lightning Stance but one which acts totally different and actually has a use.

I've thought things through a little bit and have come up with this:
Make the stance deal damage, but have it all split evenly among all targets within a certain range. So for example, if I did 100,000 damage and there was 10 enemies nearby, they'd all take 10,000 damage each and so on. Now, I've noticed that every stance has its downside, so giving this its downside is quite simple. Just make all the damage dealt lightning damage, meaning it won't affect lightning based creatures. On top of that, I'd recommend the damage output from the hero reduced by a very high amount because if it stayed at 100%, it'd be far too overpowered. So perhaps reduce damage output by about 95%. Yes that's a huge number to reduce it by, but it's meant for AOE damage to kill all the small annoying enemies, so let's make it bad for ogres and other higher health enemies to balance it a bit. Because let's be honest, if the damage output stayed at 100%, everything in that area would die from a single hit or two, since the Barbarian already has huge damage output.


That's the Barbarian covered, so let's move on.



I agree with that, as it is now Lightning stance is totally useless.

But it should be used, as you say, for aoe damage, lightning aoe damage, as in certain games when you charge an attack, and it bounces to every mob, maybe up to ten toons, with a chain lightning effect. and more points in that skill = more toons affected.

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I have to admit I laughed when I equipped a set of gear I made to boost ability 2 to my Apprentice then my Adept. Mana Bomb isn't great but I found Purity Bomb dealing noticeably less damage even to Dark Elves in NM quite funny.

I still don't quite understand why Mana/Purity Bomb are the only specials whose primary purpose is to deal damage that are not affected by weapon attack and hero damage. Enemy HP scaling leaves them in the dust very quickly as the waves rise in NM.

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Initiate, Enemy Drain is lacking because it doesn't affect bosses while Hero Boost is very useful against bosses. Remote Defense Boost...in most NM games I play, the builder doesn't stay out, making it pointless.


Enemy Drain stacks with Hero Boost/Call to Arms. You should see how fast 70m HP ogres melt with Enemy Drain + CtA + Spider Minion. If it worked on bosses, it would be overpowered.

Fully agreed on Remote Defense Boost though.

Also, I think both of the Adept's abilities are sort of useless. Instant Upgrade sounds good on paper, but 1) it uses up more mana, meaning fewer upgrades per full mana load and fewer stars per wave, 2) it becomes useless once everything is fully upgraded, and 3) casting speed on Adept is so good that upgrades are nearly instantaneous anyway with a good stat. And Purity Bomb is useless for the exact reasons mentioned above for Mana Bomb, except Purity Bomb seems even worse.

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Enemy Drain stacks with Hero Boost/Call to Arms. You should see how fast 70m HP ogres melt with Enemy Drain + CtA + Spider Minion. If it worked on bosses, it would be overpowered.


because a skill that requires that much set up is obviously OP?
why not just hero boost a catted barb? doesnt take synchronised skill use to be most effective, doesnt require a spider to be close and it works on bosses

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I agree with that, as it is now Lightning stance is totally useless.

But it should be used, as you say, for aoe damage, lightning aoe damage, as in certain games when you charge an attack, and it bounces to every mob, maybe up to ten toons, with a chain lightning effect. and more points in that skill = more toons affected.


I like the idea of having to charge the attack instead of just going all out with the Barbarians insane damage. It'd make it a whole lot more balanced. But let's hope if it does happen, it doesn't charge like the EVs beam thing (don't know the name) - that's just too slow.

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The only thing I will say about Summoner is that you cannot go into overlord when 2boxing (2nd controller) so if you want invulnerability, you MUST use regular phase shift.


Actually if you have the summoner as player 1, you can go into overlord, Just FYI

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because a skill that requires that much set up is obviously OP?
why not just hero boost a catted barb? doesnt take synchronised skill use to be most effective, doesnt require a spider to be close and it works on bosses


Spider and cat stack with both Hero Boost and Enemy Drain alike, so I don't see your point there.

If you have only two people in a map, then monk + barb is better. But if you have any number larger than that, one of them should be an Initiate. Even during boss fights, you never face only the boss and the boss alone; and when you already have one Hero Boost, another Hero Boost will contribute nothing to the DPS output.

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my thoughts from my DPS Initiate session yesterday (swapped gear over to level my builders xD) I think the Initiate's abilities need a rethink, maybe Enemy Drain should remove immunities like an SD does? and Defense Boost should stack with Buffs like Tower Boost does

and I love the Summoners Phase Shift move D:

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Spider and cat stack with both Hero Boost and Enemy Drain alike, so I don't see your point there.

If you have only two people in a map, then monk + barb is better. But if you have any number larger than that, one of them should be an Initiate. Even during boss fights, you never face only the boss and the boss alone; and when you already have one Hero Boost, another Hero Boost will contribute nothing to the DPS output.


youd need a countess, initiate and active summoner (unless the ogre's already at the walls, inwhich case -if its a good build- they should just derp there) and the countess+intitiate would have to have their skills active at the same time
in most maps two DPS players are rarely in the same position (barb and monk can function superbly on their own)
2 monks means the once ones hero boost cost has increased to an unsustainable amount the other one can activate to keep consistent DPS

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my thoughts from my DPS Initiate session yesterday (swapped gear over to level my builders xD) I think the Initiate's abilities need a rethink, maybe Enemy Drain should remove immunities like an SD does? and Defense Boost should stack with Buffs like Tower Boost does

and I love the Summoners Phase Shift move D:


I like the idea of removing immunities - it'd make the Initiate a very useful support class and could save us some DUs on Strength Drains, but at the cost of a dps. Seems like a fair improvement for the Initiate to me.
+1

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youd need a countess, initiate and active summoner (unless the ogre's already at the walls, inwhich case -if its a good build- they should just derp there) and the countess+intitiate would have to have their skills active at the same time
in most maps two DPS players are rarely in the same position (barb and monk can function superbly on their own)
2 monks means the once ones hero boost cost has increased to an unsustainable amount the other one can activate to keep consistent DPS


because a skill that requires that much set up is obviously OP?
why not just hero boost a catted barb? doesnt take synchronised skill use to be most effective


I have tried both and in my opinion, it is MUCH harder to cycle buffs so that one goes up when the other goes down - than to use two stackable buffs simultaneously. And you don't need the buffs at all times, only when you have a stack of 3 or more ogres on a single line of defenses. And when you have a GOOD build, one side can go without hero support for a decent while when the hero goes to aid the side that's suffering from ogre overpopulation.

Palantir, Misty, Aqua, Sky City are all maps that encourage having two or more players in the same spot when you have a full team.

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Regarding Initiate:

Winterbraid said Enemy Drain + Call to Arms + Spider Minion melts ogres. I can stand next to harpoons and use Defense Boost + Tower Boost then fire STS and that also melts ogres. The plus side is that I don't need CtA and I can use Hero Boost on bosses too, so Hero Boost is much more applicable. But if you read on below, I'm only arguing that Hero Boost > Enemy Drain and that ED should be boosted a little, not that ED should be applicable to bosses.

Regarding the boss thing, it Enemy Drain did work on bosses, it would be overpowered indeed simply because it can be combined with Hero Boost. We should leave Enemy Drain to work on non-boss enemies, but give it some quirks. I like the idea of removing elemental affinities.

Now we move on to Remote Defense Boost. Because the builder has to stay out, give it a huge boost. I propose a few things:
1) Have RDB remove immunity from towers for bosses if they have it.
2) If not already, have RDB repair defenses too.
3) Remove elemental affinity from all affected towers while RDB is active.

One question remains: Does Remote Defense Boost affect the user? If not, it should (even though it wouldn't do much). I'm also working with the assumption that RDB does indeed stack with buff beams like the wiki says.

All I can say is that I've used Initiate and Monk DPS/boost builds, and in all situations Monk trumps.

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I have tried both and in my opinion, it is MUCH harder to cycle buffs so that one goes up when the other goes down - than to use two stackable buffs simultaneously. And you don't need the buffs at all times, only when you have a stack of 3 or more ogres on a single line of defenses. And when you have a GOOD build, one side can go without hero support for a decent while when the hero goes to aid the side that's suffering from ogre overpopulation.

Palantir, Misty, Aqua, Sky City are all maps that encourage having two or more players in the same spot when you have a full team.


when one monk stops glowing pink the other activates... thats definitely not harder than stacking enemydrain+CTA, and much better than countess+initiate/monk+initiate as neither is a deadweight relying on the others abilities (which will run out against the notable -shards- bosses)

or a monk could just tower+hero boost and watch the ogres melt...

and out of those maps which need syncronised abilities to spike damage on ogres? maybe palantir, but we got by fine with hawk+hero boost spiking and didnt need to stay next to each other

my opinion; CTA+ED is gimmicky and inflexible

* its 2pm and i havent slept... somehow thought bosses... hope it still makes sense

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when one monk stops glowing pink the other activates... thats definitely not harder than stacking enemydrain+CTA, and much better than countess+initiate/monk+initiate as neither is a deadweight relying on the others abilities (which will run out against the notable -shards- bosses)

or a monk could just tower+hero boost and watch the ogres melt...

and out of those maps which need syncronised abilities to spike damage on ogres? maybe palantir, but we got by fine with hawk+hero boost spiking and didnt need to stay next to each other

my opinion; CTA+ED is gimmicky and inflexible

* its 2pm and i havent slept... somehow thought bosses... hope it still makes sense


Like I said, I have tested both and juggling abilities seemed harder to me than synchronizing. Juggling requires actual coordination, while players will instinctively activate their buffs when they see a mass of ogres.

Besides, Enemy Drain lowers the enemy resistance and damage rather than buffing heroes or towers, which means both heroes and towers will be reinforced in the effect area of Enemy Drain - by a lower factor than Hero + Tower Boost, but also with lower mana usage.



Let's imagine a 'perfect' situation, with +3 perfect catted barb, perfect Hero/Tower Boost monk and another hero.

If the 3rd hero is another Monk:
The DPS output of each hero is boosted by a factor of 2 x 3 = 6;
the DPS output of towers is boosted by a factor of 3.

If the 3rd hero is an Initiate:
The DPS output of each hero is boosted by a factor of 2 x 3 x 1.7 = 10.2;
the DPS output of towers is boosted by a factor of 3 x 1.7 = 5.1;

with the obvious exception of bosses, where the factors will be reverted to 6 and 3, and Initiate will perform equally well to a monk in the 3rd slot, besides the marginal penalties to DPS and HP inherent with all female classes.



As you can see, not my subjective views or ideas, but the math itself is on the side of the Initiate. What numbers do you have to support the thesis that Enemy Drain is lacking?

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