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DarkSoul

My view on DD and things I hope trendy learn for they new games/DD2

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I think the reason why DD wasn't as successful as it could of been is because the devs did not have a clear goal in mind on what the game is and because of that they couldn't make the right decisions based on that.

The game at it's core is a Single Player PVE loot game with the OPTION of multiplayer for better rewards and challenge. This is and should of been its major selling point and the focus of all game balance.

Making PVP maps and requires multiplayer maps was a bad idea I understand the need to cater toward other players but it shoudn't of been in the game because of above.

Nerfing/hindering solo play with content additions because someone in multiplayer was AFK farming with a really good build/stats is not what should of been the response that was taken.

The correct response to afk farming should of been "so what" that's one player/group of players who most likely will buy new content if they can farm better items.

Our GOAL should always be with allowing new players to access our content and progress by themselves so we can attract more players (thus making more money).

For example a couple players

Im a player who likes to complete things by myself getting achievements and progressing through the levels on harder difficulties I never trade because I like farming my own items and progressing at my own pace. I don't mind spending a lot of time on the game as long as I can progress.

Im a hardcore player i generally spend alot of time finding out how to get the best gear and items and I use any system most normally trading and forums to get the best items quicker I normally have a close group of friends that I only play with.

Im a semi-casual player I normally have a group of real life freinds or I make friends easily in multiplayer. I like having good items so that me and my friends can progress together. We trade and look on forums sometimes to see if we should be doing a different map etc.

By focusing on the single player aspect of the game you would of solved all the problems and catered to those 3 player examples.

However the nerfs/content additions and requirements like killing bosses that require gear got from after you kill them for solo or require a decent team of geared players added additional requirements on players that should not have been there.

This caused an increased importance on trading that intern lead to an explosion of hacking and requirement of large amounts of mana to progress that ultimately ruined the economy because players couldn't progress by themselves.

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Couldn't have put it better myself...


I agree. The game seemed to be released with "spur of the moment" ideas.

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Who said DD wasn't successful? Success has no grey areas. You are either successful or not successful. Win or lose.

However, I do have one critique myself which I didn't read here and was brought up recently by other forum posters. I knew the issue would surface again, the question was just when. The item upgrade system is totally messed up, and should have been based on user-set stats, not based on our equipped items.

So much time is wasted sifting through garbage, and nobody wants to waste good items. This will be my whole and deciding factor if I will purchase another one of Trendy's games, as I imagine their next game will be loot centered as well.

No custom item filter in the next game, no sale for me.

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If they make another game, it's not gonna be a DD2. Don't see why people keep thinking this. A DD2 is not in their best interest. They would make more money off of DLC then a sequel right now because that involves EVERYONE starting over again and who wants to start over after all these hours of farming for gear. No one, that's who.

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Bottom line

If DD hadn't been a success we would have the amount of dlc we have, nor would Trendy be reading their next project or gotten a big investment, just check steam, there are dozens and dozens of indie (and not so indie) games which if you go and check their forums to see what are basically abandoned projects, some times in as little as months after release, if they ever get a patch at all.

Stop saying DD was a failure just because you don't agree to the way it was developed.

That said, I can fully agree that there were some very obvious mistakes that we all hope will be corrected on whatever next incarnation of the game we will see, or a whole different game altogether, but we all agree and hope they will learn.

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A huge Chunk of players just bought this game during the summer sale i really doubt that DD2 is even remotely in the works .. other titles yes almost certainly but, there is no need for a new DD.This game only needs Dlc in order to carry on. Making DD 2 so soon will only split the player base in half and ruin everything so far. If anything i say trendy is working on new titles and Dlc ... But only time will tell.

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I think the reason why DD wasn't as successful as it could of been is because the devs did not have a clear goal in mind on what the game is and because of that they couldn't make the right decisions based on that.


Who said DD wasn't successful?


Nobody did.

All that was mentioned was why DD did not reach full potential.

Other then the reason's listed by OP i would add the point of:

- Never truely rebalancing old maps after new content.
EV gets released?
All maps get easier by factor x.

Summoner gets released?
All maps get easier by factor x.

New shard content (and thus new unit) gets released?
All maps get harder by factor x.


yet in none of the cases factor x was good in the way that it was correct in the natural progression of an player. Progression in general was already rather... bad. but mindlessly adding new characters or enemies without revising the old content breaks the game (either too easy or too hard)

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I will be cannon fodder for this post i guess, and say that I agree with the OP on many points. Whether or not if any of it reduced it's potential success, iunno. but I did personally enjoy the game more when it was more of a SP Game with the choice of MP if the desire struck you. It seems that it is now mostly MP based. Does this kill the game, well obviously not, alot of people still play, and these forums are proof of that. But then again, they are proof of a game that should have been made with a tighter direction. My opinion. I would love to see the game nerfed from its "you practically need to be playing MP to win" mentality. But then again, Just my opinion.

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Who said DD wasn't successful? Success has no grey areas. You are either successful or not successful. Win or lose.

However, I do have one critique myself which I didn't read here and was brought up recently by other forum posters. I knew the issue would surface again, the question was just when. The item upgrade system is totally messed up, and should have been based on user-set stats, not based on our equipped items.

So much time is wasted sifting through garbage, and nobody wants to waste good items. This will be my whole and deciding factor if I will purchase another one of Trendy's games, as I imagine their next game will be loot centered as well.

No custom item filter in the next game, no sale for me.


I never said it wasn't successful what I said is it isn't as successful as it could of been with a few minor changes that drastically would bring in people to the game.

The loot system is terrible, neg stats items, useful items being deleted leaving useless items at the end of a wave, crap rewards. Unbelievable difficulty that rewards players with HIGHER NEGATIVE STAT ITEMS and lack of good amour or weapons because it doesn't separate their drops.

The in game system that tells you an item is better and it has 4 NEGATIVE RES stats / fubar tower or dps stats compared to equipped gear is lol.

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If they make another game, it's not gonna be a DD2. Don't see why people keep thinking this. A DD2 is not in their best interest. They would make more money off of DLC then a sequel right now because that involves EVERYONE starting over again and who wants to start over after all these hours of farming for gear. No one, that's who.


depends on whether they have another genre they want to tackle, or whether they want to really do this game right, which might mean starting from scratch rather than constantly trying to fiddle with what already exists without annoying one special interest group or another.

we have no idea what their motivations are or what they're thinking internally. it's often 1 main creative mind who pushes a team in a direction, and gets them excited about an idea.

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depends on whether they have another genre they want to tackle, or whether they want to really do this game right, which might mean starting from scratch rather than constantly trying to fiddle with what already exists without annoying one special interest group or another.

we have no idea what their motivations are or what they're thinking internally. it's often 1 main creative mind who pushes a team in a direction, and gets them excited about an idea.


Actually we do in a commentary it was said to the affect of "we have bets how long it takes people to complete our content"

they took a very causal design strat (cause they had no idea that it would be that successful)

What is another topic that devs have no clue how to make good games (and even worse they don't pay attention to why other good games are good and how they can use this knowledge to make the game better)

Cause the benefit of being a new company is being able to see the products on the market and what they are doing wrong and right and build your product to be better than any of them.

Instead of some companies who build franchises a good quote "what improvements have you made, response we added a extra number on the box" - Tron movie

Games designers who are making great games cause they know whats wrong with there genre and do things to resolve these flaws are the ones we should be throwing are money at.

From software /dark souls (its easy if you know what to do, you can succeed with any build if you learn it, doing so is extremely rewarding)
relic/torchlight 2 (scaling skills, the best rng system ever meaning it rewards players of all levels/difficulty with useful gear, massive improvements to item management and storage + many others, complete modabltiy yes you can make yourself a god that cuts thru all content easy, so what its your game you play how you wanna)

Hilariously there is an achievement for using lots of mods at once (and you can still get achievements if you made yourself a god)

So none of the Trendy Ranked (hack/mod but don't tell anyone) Open (hack/mod all you want)
(don't think they have VAC even if they say they do)

Instead allow player to hack/mod but as long as its not directed to hurt other players, e.g. deletion of items/viruses etc and bans are for only the players that try to hurt other players directly.

Make it clear in game if a user is using hacked/modded gear or items that are modded so that player can CHOOSE to play with those items/people and doing so isn't punishable

So none of this I has X items I stand above you on MY imaginary hill shouting "Im the best" at all you below me.

Because items are not mind numbly hard to acquire and easily replace trading is more about helping others than non existent profit.

Good Game design 101
Gives the player OPTIONS on how to play
Allows the player to be REWARDED for the OPTIONS they made by not forcing them to metagame
Does NOT punish players because SOMEONE is using the best build/meta gaming
It actually REWARDS the player to learn what the "pros" are doing (an example of this is there are people who have played dark souls since release and have learned things they didn't know that others new at the start)

ALL GAME BALANCE is designed to make the game more FUN and REWARDING

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People doesnt realize that when this game started, Trendy is a very small small company. The coding of loot seem some what complex and redundant, redo all the coding at this point will not be challenge for trendy(as CrzyRndm have prove in his mod). But the big change of loot will attract complain from old player who spend many hour farming. where you go from 1 ult per 50 run to 2-3 ults in just 10 run. While this game is on maturity-decline period, trendy most likely want to hold their loytal player for their support of next project. If the next project comes out, those who master this game and have nothing more to do will quickly migrate to the next game without hassle.

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Actually we do in a commentary it was said to the affect of "we have bets how long it takes people to complete our content"

they took a very causal design strat (cause they had no idea that it would be that successful)

What is another topic that devs have no clue how to make good games (and even worse they don't pay attention to why other good games are good and how they can use this knowledge to make the game better)

Cause the benefit of being a new company is being able to see the products on the market and what they are doing wrong and right and build your product to be better than any of them.

Instead of some companies who build franchises a good quote "what improvements have you made, response we added a extra number on the box" - Tron movie

Games designers who are making great games cause they know whats wrong with there genre and do things to resolve these flaws are the ones we should be throwing are money at.

From software /dark souls (its easy if you know what to do, you can succeed with any build if you learn it, doing so is extremely rewarding)
relic/torchlight 2 (scaling skills, the best rng system ever meaning it rewards players of all levels/difficulty with useful gear, massive improvements to item management and storage + many others, complete modabltiy yes you can make yourself a god that cuts thru all content easy, so what its your game you play how you wanna)

Hilariously there is an achievement for using lots of mods at once (and you can still get achievements if you made yourself a god)

So none of the Trendy Ranked (hack/mod but don't tell anyone) Open (hack/mod all you want)
(don't think they have VAC even if they say they do)

Instead allow player to hack/mod but as long as its not directed to hurt other players, e.g. deletion of items/viruses etc and bans are for only the players that try to hurt other players directly.

Make it clear in game if a user is using hacked/modded gear or items that are modded so that player can CHOOSE to play with those items/people and doing so isn't punishable

So none of this I has X items I stand above you on MY imaginary hill shouting "Im the best" at all you below me.

Because items are not mind numbly hard to acquire and easily replace trading is more about helping others than non existent profit.

Good Game design 101
Gives the player OPTIONS on how to play
Allows the player to be REWARDED for the OPTIONS they made by not forcing them to metagame
Does NOT punish players because SOMEONE is using the best build/meta gaming
It actually REWARDS the player to learn what the "pros" are doing (an example of this is there are people who have played dark souls since release and have learned things they didn't know that others new at the start)

ALL GAME BALANCE is designed to make the game more FUN and REWARDING


I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir.

For someone who has played torchlight 2, yes they allow you to mod the game files and edit items to god-like status and this very simply dumbed down the game by at least 10 fold.

I personally have tried some of the mods and it made the game so stupidly easy that I deleted the mods right away and restarted a new character and replayed right from the beginning.

Did Torchlight 2 have to resort to banning their player base to achieve that result? No.
Do players still enjoy playing that game and argue that its gameplay is comparable or supercedes that of D3? Yes.

Also, Torchlight 2 implemented the cheater status for that particular character you cheated with and the label will stick to you whenever you are playing that particular character. (Not sure how that works so pardon me, never gotten that status before).

I too agree that DD being mostly a co-op game, should't be too harsh on players cheating. Yes, it is wrong. But does it hurt or cause other players any harm, like in PVP games for example CS, MW3? No.
Therefore, if your counterparts or team mates notice your gears have been edited and you are making the games too easy for them, they have the option to leave the game or ban you from their games so they get to enjoy playing at the difficulty level they want to play at.
More often than not, I've seen games being created by lowbies stating very clearly they do not want high levels to join in their game titles and this is a classic example that there are people who enjoy the challenge of the game.

So now, we have a simple solution, allow us, the players, choose who we want to play with and ban players from our own games, rather than banning players from playing ranked altogether. That is essentially forcing us to rebuy the game and making a new account just so we can play online again.
From a business standpoint, there are pros and cons to that.
Pro being, Trendy makes more revenue from selling more copies of the game, but how many players are really that hardcore? We may have to conduct a survey/poll to find out the respective percentages.
Con being, Trendy may or may not lose their player base because players refuse to purchase another copy of the game because they were banned for purchasing a hacked item from a cheater for fear that the same issue might arise again causing their next account to be banned the same manner. Starting over with a fresh account and reinvesting the time and effort to grind and relevel their characters, I assume, isn't a popular choice amongst players, at least for me.
The other con is, by recommending that we aid in the reporting of other players may lead to backstabbing and other moral issues, for example, I am jealous that you have a superior item than mine and therefore it has to be hacked so I report it and if by a certain chance, the item is truly hacked but has a totally possible item stat just that its more perfect than it is and he happened to purchase for a huge amount of mana which, for the quality of the gear, is justified, the player gets banned. This may split the community and causing players to have trust issues within the game and essentially turning everyone into a tattletale and backstabber.

DD, in my opinion, is a huge success for a small company like Trendy.
They set out with an idea for a new genre of game, made it into reality, and attracted thousands of players, like myself to dedicate hundreds of hours of their time to interact with others via forums and ingame.
Though I've not been playing this game for as long as some of the other players, during my short term here, I've met quite a few of the players on a daily basis and we actually recognise players whom we've played with before, and added one another on steam and proceeded to level up and enjoy playing together.
Trendy may not be a huge company but its tight-knit community of players have impressed me.
Sure, there are definitely a few douchebags in every game but they form the minority and most of the players I've met and interacted with in game have been friendly and kind.
How many small start ups actually have such a forum whereby players are so actively involved with the activities/events conducted.

I'm sure their upcoming game will be as successful as DD and once they amend/review their policy towards the bans, I'm pretty sure they'll retain their playerbase and will support Trendy all the way.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir.

For someone who has played torchlight 2, yes they allow you to mod the game files and edit items to god-like status and this very simply dumbed down the game by 10 fold.

I personally have tried some of the mods and it made the game so stupidly easy that I deleted the mods right away and restarted a new character and replayed right from the beginning.

Did Torchlight 2 have to resort to banning their player base to achieve that result? No.
Do players still enjoy playing that game and argue that its gameplay is comparable or supercedes that of D3? Yes.

Also, Torchlight 2 implemented the cheater status for that particular character you cheated with and the label will stick to you whenever you are playing that particular character. (Not sure how that works so pardon me, never gotten that status before).

I too agree that DD being mostly a co-op game, should't be too harsh on players cheating. Yes, it is wrong. But does it hurt or cause other players any harm, like in PVP games for example CS, MW3? No.
Therefore, if your counterparts or team mates notice your gears have been edited and you are making the games too easy for them, they have the option to leave the game or ban you from their games so they get to enjoy playing at the difficulty level they want to play at.
More often than not, I've seen games being created by lowbies stating very clearly they do not want high levels to join in their game titles and this is a classic example that there are people who enjoy the challenge of the game.

So now, we have a simple solution, allow us, the players, choose who we want to play with and ban players from our own games, rather than banning players from playing ranked altogether. That is essentially forcing us to rebuy the game and making a new account just so we can play online again.
From a business standpoint, there are pros and cons to that.
Pro being, Trendy makes more revenue from selling more copies of the game, but how many players are really that hardcore? We may have to conduct a survey/poll to find out the respective percentages.
Con being, Trendy may or may not lose their player base because players refuse to purchase another copy of the game because they were banned for purchasing a hacked item from a cheater for fear that the same issue might arise again causing their next account to be banned the same manner. Starting over with a fresh account and reinvesting the time and effort to grind and relevel their characters, I assume, isn't a popular choice amongst players, at least for me.

DD, in my opinion, is a huge success for a small company like Trendy.
They set out with an idea for a new genre of game, made it into reality, and attracted thousands of players, like myself to dedicate hundreds of hours of their time to interact with others via forums and ingame.
Though I've not been playing this game for as long as some of the other players, during my short term here, I've met quite a few of the players on a daily basis and we actually recognise players whom we've played with before, and added one another on steam and proceeded to level up and enjoy playing together.
Trendy may not be a huge company but its tight-knit community of players have impressed me.
Sure, there are definitely a few douchebags in every game but they form the minority and most of the players I've met and interacted with in game have been friendly and kind.
How many small start ups actually have such a forum whereby players are so actively involved with the activities/events conducted.

I'm sure their upcoming game will be as successful as DD and once they amend/review their policy towards the bans, I'm pretty sure they'll retain their playerbase and will support Trendy all the way.




They already have this option to create your own gear as you see fit in-game which is called the "DDDK" and these items can be used on "Open". There is a reason why there is a Rank and Open server so that players who do not want to play or be bothered with mods/hacks can play on Rank and players who want to Mod can play on Open.

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They already have this option to create your own gear as you see fit in-game which is called the "DDDK" and these items can be used on "Open". There is a reason why there is a Rank and Open server so that players who do not want to play or be bothered with mods/hacks can play on Rank and players who want to Mod can play on Open.


You have to understand that the player base in Open is really pathetic.
On a good day, you'll find 4 games in the game lobby while on ranked you'll find page after page of games for you to join.
You do have to admit that there are certain maps that playing solo just isn't possible or as enjoyable as playing with friends or other members of the community.
So is it wrong of them to want to play on ranked to enjoy that aspect of the gameplay? I do not think so.

What I feel they should've done here is, maybe combine the 2 servers or remove open altogether because obviously, not many people are utilising that server the the fullest extent and prevent editing of items altogether, or limit it to the offline mode.
If they do get caught by the VAC for using an external program for editing, they get banned, period.
For people who slip through the cracks and end up keeping their edited items, allow us, the players, decide who we want to ban from our games.
This will remove a huge load off the TE team since they will spend way less time analysing players reports, banning players and reviewing their appeals and can redirect their focus on more important issues like ingame bugs, more DLCs, and a more awesome new game

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You have to understand that the player base in Open is really pathetic.
On a good day, you'll find 4 games in the game lobby while on ranked you'll find page after page of games for you to join.
You do have to admit that there are certain maps that playing solo just isn't possible or as enjoyable as playing with friends or other members of the community.
So is it wrong of them to want to play on ranked to enjoy that aspect of the gameplay? I do not think so.

What I feel they should've done here is, maybe combine the 2 servers or remove open altogether because obviously, not many people are utilising that server the the fullest extent and prevent editing of items altogether.
If they do get caught by the VAC for using an external program for editing, they get banned, period.
For people who slip through the cracks and end up keeping their edited items, allow us, the players, decide who we want to ban from our games.



I do not agree with Torchlights methods whatsoever because its like they gave up on trying to stop hackers from hacking there game which is sad to see. The fact is that there are already options to do everything that has been mentioned in this thread on open so why don't you guys go and make open popular and show players that its a awesome option to play on. No one should just give up on something that gives you all the options to do whatever you want just because its on a server thats less played on.

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No matter how much we argue, there will be no big change in dungeon defender right now or in the future.
Every opinion should wait until new project release

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I do not agree with Torchlights methods whatsoever because its like they gave up on trying to stop hackers from hacking there game which is sad to see. The fact is that there are already options to do everything that has been mentioned in this thread on open so why don't you guys go and make open popular and show players that its a awesome option to play on. No one should just give up on something that gives you all the options to do whatever you want just because its on a server thats less played on.


You can never stop hackers by implementing something only makes them want to hack more. You stop hackers indirectly by marking it moot for them to hack.

E.g. what torchlight 2 does, IT gives players OPTIONS on how they have FUN, to ever play the game stock, mod the game or hack the game with cheat engines.

None of this is punishable because if that's how YOU have FUN then go for it. (as long as the condition is your not spreading virus etc/exploiting other players games THAT'S WHAT BANS SHOULD BE FOR)

Also due to the rng being the best ever in any game (your rewarded with useful items at all levels of play) Trading is not required as ONLY serves the purpose to share items with others to help them, most likely for FREE cause the RNG is that GOOD.

T2 (within a 1hr you will find an item that is drastically better than your current item, DD not so much) from NATURAL PROGRESSION

The difficulty doesn't effect drops only enemy strength means people who want a challenge can pick the mode THEY WANT TO PLAY, hell there are even mods to make the game HARDER from those people who want that.

hacking or modding like this hurts NO ONE, In MP you have the OPTION to kick/ban anyone and play with the MODs only you accept.

2012 good game design is about
Giving players the OPTIONS of how they play
Rewarding them for CHOOSING the OPTION they want to play with subtle game mechanics
Designed as a single player game that rewards players who play multi-player with a higher challenge and better rewards.
All additional content is playable by anyone and not just a few high leveled/geared players
Game Balance is focused on SOLELY making the GAME FUN for all players not just the few

Recent change was in dark souls the ninja flip was reduced because people where using the heaviest amour and still flipping cause that wasn't FUN and FORCED you to DO THE SAME.

Not putting requirements on players on how they play their game, e.g. trading/hacking/multi player

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[QUOTE]
The game at it's core is a Single Player PVE loot game with the OPTION of multiplayer[/QUOTE]People will argue over this forever, but the game is neither primarily a single player game or primarily a multiplayer game. It is equally both.

[QUOTE]E.g. what torchlight 2 does, IT gives players OPTIONS on how they have FUN, to ever play the game stock, Mod the game or download mods. Hack the game with cheat engines.[/QUOTE]So what Torchlight does, is it doesn't give a darn if people cheat or not? Can't beat em, join em? That's a game I'm not going to play then... I highly doubt they "gave" this to you, It's more likely that they simply didn't care and didn't do anything about cheaters when they could have. I've never understood the fun in this- What point is there in playing the game at all if you've unlocked everything and have all powers and can just breeze through the game? Cheating scares off new players just as much if not more than bugs and glitches.

People also need to remember that mods and cheating are not the same thing. Mods are custom content and features created by players. Cheating is breaking the rules, usually for the purpose of ruining the fun of others or trivializing the game yourself because you can't handle a challenge.

[QUOTE]
hacking or modding like this hurts NO ONE,[/QUOTE]Hacking and cheating (not modding- don't use the word modding, it means something completely different than what you're using it for) hurts everyone. In games with economies, it ruins the economy, in games with multiplayer, it ruins the fun for the players trying to enjoy the game within its rules. It ruins the game for YOURSELF by sucking the fun out of it a lot sooner than if you took the time to play through it normally. If your first instinct in a game is to cheat, that tells me either 1) you're a habitual cheater or 2) it's not the right kind of game for you. I guarantee you that if everyone could easily cheat and there were no rules against it, the game would have no economy and trading would not bring the enjoyment that it does to many people, and the average number of hours played would be a lot lower because everyone would conquer everything in the game in a very short time and then move on to another game.

Yes, if you don't want to play with cheaters, you could kick them out of your game, but if cheating has no consequences, there would be too many cheaters and it would be hard for legitimate players to find other legitimate players to play with.

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Yes, if you don't want to play with cheaters, you could kick them out of your game, but if cheating has no consequences, there would be too many cheaters and it would be hard for legitimate players to find other legitimate players to play with.


If they decided to cheat and hack their way through and get banned by VAC, assuming VAC is working well for DD, they will automatically get banned through VAC without TE doing anything about it.
Unless, TE has no confidence in VAC doing its job, then they shouldn't have implemented VAC into DD in the first place.
Because double banning is just counter-productive and the time and effort needed to ban players for something as trivial as purchasing a hacked piece of equipment is a waste of manpower and resources.

Secondly, selling equipment and gears for real money is prohibited. May I know the reason why this is the case?
People have the right to do whatever they want with their money and spend on anything they deem fit and if they are more than willing or capable of spending their money to purchase superior gears just to make the game easier so be it.
TE should realise that if they perhaps allowed people to have the option of selling their gears for USD, it motivates more people to spend more time grinding for superior gears (that is one of the reasons why people still play the diablo series at all to be honest) and perhaps curb the hacking/cheating issue.
It ultimately boils down to demand and supply.
If people see an item they believe is worth their money to purchase, I do not see why people should be prevented from doing so.
The mana economy is already inflated as it is currently.
Items cost hundreds of billions of mana while the maximum mana you can hold is only 2billion and you have to convert the rest to tokens which will have to take up space in your storage when it can be used to store more gears for your alts.
I've always asked myself why is it not possible to reduce the number of zeroes.

A good example of such an economy is the D3 economy. Yes, initially, people were against the idea of a real money auction house because they were afraid it might ruin the gold economy and indirectly force players to spend real money just to purchase good gears as most believe that players will place the excellent quality items up on the RMAH rather than the GAH, but they were wrong.
D3 economy have eventually stabilized and there were more items being sold in the GAH than the RMAH.

Also, if what you said about torchlight 2 is right, there shouldn't be anyone still playing torchlight 2 right now but surprisingly, the game is still constantly being updated(more often than most games anyway) and their player base is still rather huge despite their "don't care" attitude towards modding/cheating.
Truth is, they have not given up on the game at all and there are still class balances etc that is being worked on by the TL2 team.

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1) There will always be hackers......... deal with it.

2) Trendy being small, had a big success on their hands. Being new and small, they could not deal with it's continuance.

3) The Loot system is so messed up, it locks most everyone at the 2.5K tower stat. The DLC really screw armor drops more on Kings. It would take way to much money to rewrite everything. So, they gave us a 600 stat Kobold on insane easy mod, and allow us to slam all our points into a twr strength. This still has not produced the hard maps being played online. Most are the easy Campaign Nightmare. You won't see Talay runs or CD runs.... online... hardly any Sky City runs.. The game is to hard to make that cross over. The Armor drops are just not there!!!

4) Even if Trendy did fix the loot drops, where is it going from there? No plans, no new big saga, no point.

5) I think people like myself expect more, and have a hard time knowing things can be more awesome and complete, but not seeing it. We even get Mad at Trendy for not trying harder.

6) Hope for a DD2................. They won't screw that one up, and will have more experience, with bigger vision. This one got out of their reach, and they tried to keep up by throwing out DLC with no vision.

For what is its though..... For what they had to work with...... For their experience............ Great Job, and great concept.

Mike.

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People will argue over this forever, but the game is neither primarily a single player game or primarily a multiplayer game. It is equally both.

So what Torchlight does, is it doesn't give a darn if people cheat or not? Can't beat em, join em? That's a game I'm not going to play then... I highly doubt they "gave" this to you, It's more likely that they simply didn't care and didn't do anything about cheaters when they could have. I've never understood the fun in this- What point is there in playing the game at all if you've unlocked everything and have all powers and can just breeze through the game? Cheating scares off new players just as much if not more than bugs and glitches.


You don't have to cheat, you can play the game how the devs made it and enjoy it, its really fun, I watched some beta vids saying they made it harder than the first game cause that was easy, so chose normal and found it a little to easy and should of been hard and its FUN to play.

Now if I wanted to I could download mods or cheat to change the game in ways so i can have a DIFFERENT form of FUN or Improve the game.

Example I have loads of good items the storage the games company gave me is so limited, Bam hay presto more storage from a mod.

[QUOTE]People also need to remember that mods and cheating are not the same thing. Mods are custom content and features created by players. Cheating is breaking the rules, usually for the purpose of ruining the fun of others or trivializing the game yourself because you can't handle a challenge.[/QUOTE]

Wrong modding is adding or changing to the current content the game uses to inject OPTIONAL FUN into a game

hacking/cheating is forcing the game to run in a specific way (and can be FUN FOR SOME PEOPLE)

Cheating isn't breaking the rules if there are no rules and is talked later next comment

[QUOTE]Yes, if you don't want to play with cheaters, you could kick them out of your game, but if cheating has no consequences, there would be too many cheaters and it would be hard for legitimate players to find other legitimate players to play with.[/QUOTE]

Wrong there are many games in torchlight 2 that don't involve cheats or mods your wrong because its structured correctly

[QUOTE]In games with economies, it ruins the economy [/QUOTE]

Wrong it ruins them only if the games rng is grindy and progression is poorly structured or has real life money involved.

T2s rng rewards players of all levels with good gear, trading is OPTIONAL and NOT REQUIRED because of this so therefore is unhurt. Also there is no chance of bans so trading hacked items to get people banned isn't a thing.

[QUOTE]in games with multiplayer, it ruins the fun for the players trying to enjoy the game within its rules.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't their FUN is based on their attitude, T2 is extremely fun for people who play it even with the OPTION to hack and mod the game to EASY MODE. Seriously you are being to butt hurt on what other players are doing in their game and not enjoying your game YOUR WAY.

[QUOTE]It ruins the game for YOURSELF [/QUOTE]

Wrong, if your Fun is to to cheat or mod then that's FUN FOR YOU, if your FUN is to not HACK or MOD, that's fun for YOU.

So long as the condition is your not hacking other peoples games/spreading virus AND other players have an OPTION TO NOT PLAY WITH YOU all is cool

[QUOTE]If your first instinct in a game is to cheat, that tells me either 1) you're a habitual cheater or 2) it's not the right kind of game for you. [/QUOTE]

firstly labelling people is childish and dumb. secondly im not a cheater, I have fun my way and i don't care how other people have fun their way (e.g. hacks/mods) I will however use mods that improve the game as I see fit.

[QUOTE]I guarantee you that if everyone could easily cheat and there were no rules against it, the game would have no economy and trading would not bring the enjoyment that it does to many people, and the average number of hours played would be a lot lower because everyone would conquer everything in the game in a very short time and then move on to another game.[/QUOTE]

Wrong torchlight 2 is going strong it has everything you said would cause it to die out and your wrong its still played a lot by different people playing THEIR WAY.

Your understanding of good games design is extremely lacking and its a general disease gamers have that allow games companies to made bad games and still profit doing so COUGH Diablo 3 COUGH

@ VVV

[QUOTE]Secondly, selling equipment and gears for real money is prohibited. May I know the reason why this is the case?[/QUOTE]

You don't own any of the items or content in DD trendy does, you have a licence to use said things. This licence does not great you the permission of making money off their work.

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