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Huntress DPS Theorycrafting and Guide -- need community help as well!


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I would like to chime in and comment on the weapons inherent attack speed. Unfortunately, I wish it was as "easy" as a decimal in the attack speed rating that isn't displayed, but it is definitely not the case and each weapon type definitely has an inherent speed that is then multiplied by that attack speed rating you can increase.
For a quick and easy test of this, take any crystal tracker at 5atk speed, increase it to 6, and then see if you attack anywhere near 6 times a second. My best crystal tracker, which has a reported 6 atk speed, empties its ammos of 25 in right around 7.1s. This comes up to 3.52 shots per second, way under what you would expect from a 6 atk speed stat if this was truly speed/second. This is also backed up by the rough numbers given by the test dummy, which give a dps equal to 4 times the base shot dmg.
I really wish Trendy would fix this and make it so that every single weapon is comparable to another by simply looking at the attack speed stat. As it is, it can be very confusing and misleading.


Some great info -- your analysis was also my first impression, but I haven't had the opportunity to really try to assemble any baseline of data, weapon type attack speed, etc. Would love a dev to just throw us a bone -- maybe the imminent source code will quickly shed some light?

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My VW only does 55k DPS... and still gets an additional ~9k DPS from PS. I find your additional PS DPS increase to be slightly mythical, lol. But that aside, yes, I kept 70 points in PS and have my spare 19 in Health atm. How much health do you have with all 70 in it?


I meant when specced for it. I get 12k with 19 points and 15k with 70 points

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I meant when specced for it. I get 12k with 19 points and 15k with 70 points
I understood what you wrote: that there was only a 3K delta between putting more points into the skill. But now that I'm seeing the other guys character his comments make more sense to me.

No offense, Mysticales, but I don't think someone should be offering advice on the best way to build armor (and recommending stacking a stat that isn't even fully developed on his character) when you're not endgame or even using an armor set. Not to mention, arguing to stack hero attack but actually with tower attack stacked and using a pet with -tower attack? Seriously, this thread is supposed to be about DPS theory crafting :)

@Mang,
How much have you figured out in regards to diminishing returns?

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I understood what you wrote: that there was only a 3K delta between putting more points into the skill. But now that I'm seeing the other guys character his comments make more sense to me.

No offense, Mysticales, but I don't think someone should be offering advice on the best way to build armor (and recommending stacking a stat that isn't even fully developed on his character) when you're not endgame or even using an armor set. Not to mention, arguing to stack hero attack but actually with tower attack stacked and using a pet with -tower attack? Seriously, this thread is supposed to be about DPS theory crafting :)

@Mang,
How much have you figured out in regards to diminishing returns?
Who are you talking about, lol?

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First of all, I wrote Mysticales right in the post you quoted so there's no question who I directed my comment towards. Secondly, you can also apply it to yourself since you're barely pushing half of our dps values yet telling us not to die, do more dps, etc. etc.

We're dealing between 80K to 100K with our weapons (twice your dps) so when we talk about the low value of stacking additional attack damage we're talking about getting an additional (worthless) 50 dps after doing so. So when you say oh man you should really stack piercing shot...well that got you to 9K but you don't have endgame gear. We're doing 12K already so stacking it more isn't going to help clear trash mobs any faster with 15K because nothing lives that long already. It might make sense to you to think otherwise, but that's why I recommend waiting until you have endgame gear before disagreeing with those of us who do.

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First of all, I wrote Mysticales right in the post you quoted so there's no question who I directed my comment towards. Secondly, you can also apply it to yourself since you're barely pushing half of our dps values yet telling us not to die, do more dps, etc. etc.

We're dealing between 80K to 100K with our weapons so when we talk about the low value of stacking additional attack damage we're talking about getting an additional (worthless) 50 dps after doing so. So when you say oh man you should really stack piercing shot...well that got you to 9K but you don't have endgame gear. We're doing 12K already so stacking it more isn't going to help clear trash mobs any faster with 15K because nothing lives that long already. It might make sense to you to think otherwise, but that's why I recommend waiting until you have endgame gear before disagreeing with those of us who do.
My armor is definitely end game, just not completely maxed, it's just that my bow is lacking a few upgrade slots. I also have yet to say that people need more DPS, I've mostly stated how worthless health is in comparison to the other stats. Regardless of whether or not PS effectively caps around 12k, due to max trash health. I'd still prefer more DPS over health.

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@Mang,
How much have you figured out in regards to diminishing returns?

A relatively pathetic amount. I have a pretty reasonable assumption for the underlying formula, but the specific diminishing curve just needs to be plotted out and solved.

I think the way to go about it is to simply determine the ratio between Weapon Hit and Weapon Base Damage, and chart it against every value for Hero Attack from some negative amount of skill up to 150 or so, and make a great curve to determine an approximating formula.

I started a spreadsheet, and I just need to input a metric crap-ton of values... it looks something like this (FAKE NUMBERS off the top of my head, just to illustrate the process):
Weapon Base Damage / Weapon Hit amount / Hero Skill Stat / [column B]/[column A]
850 / 850 / 0 / 1.0000
850 / 4000 / 125 / 4.7059
850 / 4050 / 129 / 4.7647
850 / 4100 / 137 / 4.8235

The Weapon Base Damage should probably be as high as possible to ignore rounding issues, but fundamentally it should not affect the formula at all, as we're dealing with a ratio (in my currently assumed model of how Hero Attack works).

The Weapon Hit amount is simply the base-hit damage on the target dummy, no need to go into the field.

Hero Skill Stat is simply listed on character sheet, spec+gear, but testing very low values will obviously require a respec, and you can't directly incrementalize by respeccing... you either put in all 299 points and BAM you're level 70, or you're stuck at level 0, rules out simple testing increments.

With enough data, (assumedly) a simple 2nd order regression is probably all that's needed, pretty straightforward in Excel. The formula should basically pop right out at you.

Any thoughts?

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BL4zD, Just cause I dont have the end game "gear" or in a standing that you dont agree with. Doesnt mean I dont have insight to whats up. Or how I have been playing and noticed in my time. I understand what gear I need to get, what to build toward and so, I just gotta get the right parts 1st.

Also have you all tried http://www.dd.fiftycal.net/calcs/vanWolf.php out?

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@Mang,
I can't offer any data. I wish I had been writing down values as I leveled but I didn't realize the issue with respec'ing until around level 30ish and by then it was already too late. But at least we have the source dropping in two days so I'm going to wait for that before hurting my head on formulas :)

Although, I'm curious what they plan on doing in regards to level cap and extra points to spend in the expansion coming in a couple weeks (and long term). I wonder if we're going to get more special skills.

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Somehow I think we will be worrying more on new class of heroes to play as vs new skills. Least at 1st. Then got the whole gender thing which will change the values too. Wouldnt mind more skills, just wish they would let us link more hotkeys to the gamepad.

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So seems from my friends the VW may not be as worth it to use anymore? Whats everyones thought on VM now? Starting to wonder if I should go after Blasticus.

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VW is still viable, it's just knocked down to the level of blasticus / crystal tracker. The x-ray is nice, but both animus and piercing strike do the same, so it's not really a necessary feature.

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Base damage is far too low for my tastes, I'm looking for a good Crystal Tracker. I dislike having a near-useless Piercing Shot. But its base DPS is still quite good.

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Yea I used to get 12k Piercing shots on my VW which has been knocked down to about 8k. My blasticus pulls off 17k pierces with around 1100 base.

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Yea base damage got kicked hard. My Skull bow seems to out dmg some of my friends VW now. Base dmg was higher too.

I just need a group of friends to help me get crystal. Insane maps are fun...

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VW being nerfed, as extremely as it has been, makes dealing with electric immune mobs that much harder as the baseline damage nerf just made PS with it near useless. I'm probably just going to go back to a Blasticus as it's nice not having to worry about immunities and being able to spam a PS that actually kills mobs is invaluable.

I'm still not sold on crystal tracker being a better alternative. The Sicarius was crap due to it's wide arc spread of fire but I haven't looked at it since the patch.

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VW being nerfed, as extremely as it has been, makes dealing with electric immune mobs that much harder as the baseline damage nerf just made PS with it near useless. I'm probably just going to go back to a Blasticus as it's nice not having to worry about immunities and being able to spam a PS that actually kills mobs is invaluable.

I'm still not sold on crystal tracker being a better alternative. The Sicarius was crap due to it's wide arc spread of fire but I haven't looked at it since the patch.

pretty good now, i might just equip one and just use genie + ps spam

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Hrm Just got a Godly VW and got it buffed up some. Already doing 14k damage, not even fully upgraded yet. Woot. =D So maybe there is some use for these still. =D

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Ironically, the nerf simply placed a higher premium on having a top end VW. Before the nerf, low end VWs were very useful and top end ones were absurd. Now, low end ones are useless but top end ones remain useful.

Sicarius is pretty effective now, but I suspect that will lead to it getting nerfed right back into uselessness based upon the patch notes.

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My VW is finally done. Gets to 22k DPS on its own. My Hybrid build has been doing well too. Played CTF last night. There are huge damage drops. However... traps, spike traps work VERY well! So a Trap Huntress or Hybrid works nice for PVP. Also this hybrid lets me solo insane ramparts and so pretty well. I still may respec to fine tune some, but yea, so far its been working nice for insane summit too. Gotta keep things upgraded fast, reload traps and keep those auras up. Now for armor upgrades, thats the trick. Been using it to buff up trap and hero damage mostly since those skills are useful no matter what. (Least for my purpose)

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Just picked this game up, absolutely loving it, and I'm glad I found a theorycrafting thread. Unfortunately I cba to read this entire thread at this very moment, and being new I may say some stupidly obvious things, but after reading the OP I'd like to contribute some information I've learned while crunching numbers on a LBE my ~30ish huntress is using.



On calculating %uptime:
(If this is known, then I feel it should be in the OP. If it's not known, it is now, so please add it. I also apologize in advance for this being an elaborate explanation of a simple concept, but it makes me feel dirty to omit steps in a proof.)

I tried using a watch to calculate my %uptime=uptime/(uptime+downtime), but found that it's not terribly accurate as I'm unfortunately not a robot. I discovered that you can get a more accurate representation of %uptime by calculating it with the DPS dummies.

First, find your (uptime+downtime):
total_time_for_N_volleys/N=(uptime+downtime), where N = number of volleys
Basically, larger data sets decrease the effect of user error in timing. Keep in mind that you MUST include the final reload in the total_time_for_N_volleys, and obviously the larger N is the more accurate your (uptime+downtime) will be. I typically use N=10, but whatever.

From here we use the dummies to record your dps and single_shot_dmg, and then your clip_size to calculate your uptime.
dps=dmg/s
single_shot_dmg=dmg/N_shots
dps/single_shot_dmg=(dmg/s)/(dmg/N_shots)=N_shots/s
clip_size/(N_shots/s)=uptime, when N_shots=clip_size
so:
clip_size/(dps/single_shot_dmg)
or
clip_size*single_shot_dmg/dps=uptime, which is pretty obvious if you think about it.

This can then be used to accurately calculate your reload time, as obviously (uptime+downtime)-uptime=downtime. I hope that this will assist you in gathering accurate data to prove your assumptions that upgrading reload and clip_size are pointless.



Stats on my 6/15 LBE:
dmg=166
[single_shot_dmg=379]
[dps=2463]
spd=7
[shots/s=6.5]
clip_size=55
[uptime=8.463256192]
[(uptime+downtime)=12.16, where my N=10]
[%uptime=.6960]
reload=1
[downtime=3.70]
(Does player speed affect reload? Mines at 11 at the moment, if that's useful to anyone.)



Twinking isn't just for level 70s :P Anyway mostly this mess is to help me decide if a reload upgrade is worth it since the reload on my LBE is dismal. On a perfect gun that you intend to invest the mana to max out it's probably not (I wouldn't know - this is my highest level char lol), but not everyone is level 70.

Soooooo.....
Basically I'm going to save up enough mana to waste 2 more upgrades into this fecal LBE, and then post the results so we can compare whether a reload upgrade was a correct choice or not. I'll come back and edit this post with the results so that we have a little more concrete data on how reload upgrades affect the weapon (clip_size upgrades are theorycraftable already, so I'm not going to bother messing with them.) Any comments on my work will be appreciated, and I promise to invest the time to read this thread in full in the near future.



edit:

Turns out I have enough to do a reload upgrade.

upgraded_reload=2
upgraded_(uptime+downtime)=11.68
upgraded_downtime=3.22
upgraded_%uptime=.7246
multiplier=1.041

Wow. I want to kill myself, as that was worthless. Here's what would've happened if I upgraded clip instead:
upgraded_clip_size=64
upgraded_uptime=9.848152659
upgraded_(uptime+downtime)=13.54
upgraded_%uptime=0.7271
multiplier=1.045
Still bad but slightly less so! *kills self*

That sucked. I'll be back when I farm up enough mana for the damage upgrade so I can show what it would've looked like without the reload upgrade and what it will then currently look like with both the damage and the reload upgrades.



edit^2:

Just got the mana for another upgrade, but unfortunately (fortunately?) spd was available to be upgraded, so obviously I chose it. I'm still running with the same gear and atk stat, by the way.

without the reload upgrade:
upgraded_spd=8
upgraded_dps=2842
upgraded_(shots/s)=7.5
upgraded_uptime=7.334623505
upgraded_(uptime+downtime)=11.03
upgraded_%uptime=.6650
multiplier=1.102
Shazam! Also it appears that shots/s=spd-.5 for the LBE. It'd be nice if somebody did some quick math with whatever they have equipped to see if this is standard.

with the reload upgrade:
upgraded_reload=2
upgraded_downtime=3.22
upgraded_spd=8
upgraded_dps=2842
upgraded_(shots/s)=7.5
upgraded_uptime=7.334623505
upgraded_(uptime+downtime)=10.55
upgraded_%uptime=.6949
multiplier=1.107
Yay spd. Now I have to go earn 50k mana so I can upgrade this thing again to see how dmg affects it. I swear if I end up maxing a crappy LBE in the name of science I will probably lose my mind.



edit^3:

Upgraded damage:
upgraded_dmg=191
upgraded_single_shot_dmg=436
multiplier=1.150
Pretty cut and dried.

Unfortunately the relationship between dmg and spd is rather awkward, especially if spd truely does follow the trend of +1 shot/s per rank.

I hope you find all of this data to be helpful!

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I got a question about the VM. Im soloing the Halloween in hard mode trying to get a good one but when I get them they have low projectiles and low attack speed. People say those stats can be upgraded but Ive upgraded a couple of them to 15+ and these 2 stats are never available to be upgraded. What do I need to do to upgrade these stats?

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Well they upgrade after a certain amount of level ups on the weapon. So gotta keep leveling it then 1 of the levels they will open up. Then will stop until another stretch.

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Yup, I have a whole list of things to test, and then this guide will be much more fleshed out. Just need to find some time (when I'm not at work).

EDIT: I figure I might as well list some of them out, in case others are bored and have mana to burn testing things...

...

c) What is the curve that describes the diminishing returns on stats -- most interested in Hero Attack and Piercing Shot, though Health should also be easy to determine.

Typically the way "diminishing returns" works is by always increasing the base stat by a % that increases linearly, rather than compounding the %s. So, if your base dmg is 100 and you add +10%, you go up 10% to 110. If you add a further +10%, you go up to 120 (10%+10%)*100, which is only a 120/110=1.091 or a +9.1% increase. Get it?

e) Does Attack Speed stat act linearly -- does a 2 Attack Speed weapon shoot half as fast as that same weapon at 4 Attack Speed? Need to parse. Similar question for Reload Bonus -- 50% reduction in reload time if you double the Reload Bonus?

f) If you have a weapon of a certain type with no Reload Bonus, how does it compare with an identical weapon with +1 Reload Bonus?

Partially answered these above.

g) Does negative projectile speed lower the weapons range? (it certainly does for grenade launchers) What about the reverse -- increasing projectile speed adds range?

In my experience mage weapons (and I'm assuming monk weapons as well) the bolts fizzle out after a certain duration, which is especially noticeable with large negative projectile speeds. I have not noticed anything like this with my huntress, as she seems to be able to hit anything regardless of the range.

h) What happens if you were to upgrade the Reload Bonus on a weapon with -1 Reload Bonus? Does the stat read +0, or go straight to +1? Does it disappear?

Do we even have a confirmation that negative reload exists, or are you just assuming it does? If it does exist, then the minimum reload speed possible in the game is -very- useful knowledge to have, as it will assist in determining exactly what the reload formula is. Please, if anyone can provide a screenshot of negative reload speed weapons I would VERY like to see them.

i) Tough question: do the hidden base attack rates vary for weapons of the same type? Can two different "simple shooters" or whatever, with the same Attack Speed stat, fire at different rates? If they do not vary, and are identical, then what is the base rate of fire for each weapon type (their shots per second if their Attack Speed stat was 1)?

It makes very little sense for there to be hidden spd differences between weapons of equivalent types. At a certain point you can expect the devs to crunch numbers in predictable, simple manners, and it just doesn't make sense for them to throw in extraneous variables that would make balaning their own game a nightmare. Most likely, the reason why we see a shotgun at spd 4 shooting faster than a launcher at spd 4 is because during playtesting they noticed the launcher was a little too strong and decided to nerf it's spd but didn't want to have to deal with modifying a whole lot of formulas such as "well this gun caps at 7 spd and this one caps at 4 and...." etc. So, instead they did the logical thing and just slowed down what the launchers definition of "4" is. It's possible that all guns don't upgrade linearly spd-wise, but once again you're looking at something that would take WAY more work for them when there are simpler answers out there.

On a side note, the reload speed formula is most likely in the form of n/(x+reload)+k. Occam's Razor and all that.


blah blah blah character limit.

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Awwww crap. I found a second LBE, decided it was garbage, and sold it instead of using it to test if they both run at the same shots/s. Anyway here's some random junk I've found in my box:

SF
spd=3; shots/s=3
spd=4; shots/s=4
spd=5; shots/s=5
I'm not quite willing to take this as proof of equivalent weapons having hidden decimals on their spd stats, as these are both named weapons, but at least it's something.

base weapon
shots/s=2.5

W-1893 Voltmeter
spd=3; shots/s=2
spd=4; shots/s=2.5
D: !!!

Legendary Flaming Devil's Breath
(Oddly enough answered my own question above bc this thing has -1 relod. OMFG it takes forever. Anyone ever seen a -2? I'll hang onto this to test reload speeds from -1 up to whatever at some point in the future; although I'll have to skip 0 so it doesn't vanish off the gun.)
spd=1; shots/s=1
spd=2; shots/s=2

The Flame Buffet
(This thing has no speed modifier - does that mean it has a spd of 0? Is this common or just unique to certain weapons?)
spd=0; shots/s=9.5

So, yeah, different weapon classes are definitely affected by spd differently. I'm going to go look for two equivalent weapons so I can compare spd and shot/s stats on them to each other.

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