Nice start on King's Game Patch Notes Trendy, now finish with...

I know exactly what this map needs...

1) gob choppers need a reduction on thier attack speed! Something like 25-33% reduction in how fast they fire thier missiles. I've seeen 3-5 choppers a ta time hovering at the top of the map, each spamming a non-stop stream of missiles, usually theres 7-10 missiles on the way down for each gob chopper. The damage they do is fine, its the rate that they do it at, and that thier missiles follow you which makes it near impossible to do anything(repair, heal upgrade, build) once they start missile spam.

2) more DU. Yes i know about the +10 DU tile, but it's still not enough. Both Aquanos and Sky City have 175 DU while kings game has 1 less crystal but only 125 DU. All this map needs is 20-30 DU to bring it into the 145 or 155 range.

Would be nice to reduce the RANGE of chopper missiles. Make it so they have to get much closer (within range of 1000'ish range towers) before they can start firing.

Do you? I don't, but i'm not going to go there again since i'll get banned otherwise... the only thing I can see is the same errors over the course of the developmentcycle again and again (fact). All due to less optimal balancing to keep the tone mildly (nerf upon nerf). If it is the fault of the testers or the devs or someone else, I don't know what but something does keep going awry.

It might be a good idea if the devs do some soulsearching of their own and try to analyse this so they won't have the exact same problem in their next franchise.

In the end it is their responsability. We can not change it for them.

PS: if they had never mentioned it would have been for a certain public, we would have put forward this map as an example of the screwed balance within nightmare, and ask when they would invest some time in redoing it or going over it. Delivering the same message... namely do some soulsearching and find our where the hitch in an otherwise perfect franchise/ team is creeping in. And please, pretty please with sprinkles on top change this.

Testers tend to know how to play the game much much better than the average player who frequents these forums. During the beta, you quickly develop a strategy that works, then over the course of the next few weeks, you perfect that strategy.

All the while, changes keep getting sent down the chute and you make little tweaks here and there.

By the time it's released to the public, the mobs/map/etc have probably gotten slightly more difficult than when you first started, but you had a solid starting build that took most of the brunt.

Now upon release, you have a "perfected mob/map/release" that really no one has any clue of how to counter it, and the first thing they do is "WAAAHHH THIS GAME IS TOO TOUGH!!!!" right out of the gate. FIRST day.

And Trendy has to cater to the outcry.

Like they did with the Sharken. Which I still think was a terrible mistake. Day 1 nerfs should never happen in my opinion. It just caters to the unimaginative mob who can't think outside their comfort zone. "This strategy worked for the last 5 months WHY DOESN'T IT WORK NOWWW????!??!??!!?"

TL;DR version:
Beta Team Testers get the build in its infancy and grow with it, learning all the nuances and quirks, so nothing seems out of place to them.

Release Build you're getting the fully trained and mean monster with no fat, and no time to study the new stuff before it eats your face off.


So...where exactly DOES the fault lie? :)

I've never had a problem with completing maps. (Except Crystalline NMHC...I still haven't gotten that, I keep falling off the boss map like a re-re, or getting stepped on)

* Goblin Copters now only drop/carry mini ogres
* Reduced Goblin Copters missile damage by 30%
* Increased King's Game DU a further 10-15
* Reduced difficulty of King's game to be equivalent to Aquanos.

Wow, this is not completely unreasonable if you ask me. Considering maps like City in the Cliffs are freaking impossible (at least for me) to get anywhere close to wave 25 or beyond. Pre-copters I feel that I would have had a good chance at getting to my desired goal of wave 25 but I wasn't focusing on that content and being relatively new to the game I didn't realize new content was coming out so soon. So, seeing a map like that get at least pulled back to it's previous 'manageable' difficulty would be ideal. Only the newest content should be THIS hard. On top of that, I noticed I am forced to start at WAVE 7...

Here are my supporting reasons to back up the OP's reasons (quoting his/her original post and adding to it):

*Goblin Copters now only drop/carry mini ogres - Mini ogres are a manageable mob and would be on the same level as sharken, spiders, and djinni- in my opinion. See, I think Trendy might be getting the impression that we hate the copter and it's ogre friend, when in fact, I think most of the community would said it's a surprising and awesome addition. However, at it's current design I don't find them challenging nor taking my thought process up a notch. Goblin Copters, to me at least, seem more like a stat check than a fun and challenging mob. I often times find myself face to face with these massive ogres with hats, putting on my turtle stance, only to realize that the copter is still over head PEW PEW'ing me. Even with my current resist the ogres smack me for over 10k WITH turtle on and the missiles seem to almost ignore my resist- they hit so hard. When 1-3 of them cluster a wall from wave 20-35 it's pretty much game over if your solo or duo and neither really has the dps or durability to take them on. THAT is a stat check, unfortunately.

* Reduced Goblin Copters missile damage by 30% As stated above, these player-seeking missiles seem to hit much harder than any single mob and their flares seem to do such a good job at distraction my ranged defenses that I've actually seen them start to cluster. I've had to run over and try to kill them with my Seahorse (since I can't freaking reach them 99% of the time) and then I typically end up DOA from 2-4 copters landing on me :(

* Increased King's Game DU a further 10-15 IF the copters are kept at their current difficulty and not nerfed down a bit or changed to carry mini ogres then 10-15 more DU (not including the bonus DU square) may be necessary. I was not a supporter of this initially but I am growing to idea.

* Reduced difficulty of King's game to be equivalent to Aquanos. I had heard that King's Game was supposed to be some what of a farm map to help bridge the gap between content. However, after playing it recently (yesterday), I find that it is beyond the difficulty of most other maps. My builders stats ranger from 1.5k-2.2k (about, none with all 4 tower over 2k) and I can SOLO City in the CLiffs with a very creative build to wave 18-20 (20 is pure luck), I can solo Mistymire to wave 25, duo or triplet Aquanos to 30, etc. King's Game (yesterday) we barely got to wave 20. It might have been my ultra creative build but then again this map makes it hard to defend with so little DU. People without the summoner DLC and average stats would probably find this map next to impossible to complete past wave 15, maybe less (not to mention EV is almost an integral part of every build). To me that seems like a way to push people to buy DLC, when DLC is- from my point of view- optional. The only DLC I consider essential is Shards since it continues the story. I have a friend that bought Dungeon Defenders and I was excited to play it with him. He said to me shortly after 'I feel like in order to get anywhere in this game I have to buy all the DLC and farm. After hearing what you're doing I just don't think I will be there any time soon.' He hasn't really logged on since because he has a job and IRl stuff. It's disappointing and he wouldn't take my offer to power level him or give him tons of gear. Why? Because sometimes people want to do the best they can to get to end game on their own (or natural progression rather.)

To be straight and not have what I've said skewed. I like the Goblin Copter. It was a surprising design that I looked forward to conquering. At it's current state I feel it's way beyond the difficulty curve from Spiders to Djinni to Sharken. I think, ideally, the community expected a new mob with reasonable difficulty. Goblin Copters are not in the spectrum of reasonable.

I have a friend that said to me that only a few percent of people who play DD have 4-5k stats and they pointed out that sometimes it feels like end game is geared specifically for them. I pretty much agree on that. Goblin Copters have put some very restricting limits to how far my builders can take me. I've taken to leveling every single one now in hopes that I can find Trans-Sup-Ult better than my mythical items. So far that I have banked is a tiny, very tiny, increase over what I have. Sometimes I question how people even get 4-5k stats, just seems impossible when I'm being forced to take a piece of gear that means a 50 stat increase on one stat.

Anyway, I am blabbering now. Thanks OP for an interesting choice of reasonable requests.

Good luck to all of us that agree.

You have no idea what the testers do, or how they interact with Trendy.

I am sure that Trendy has specific requests of beta testers and that they ask the testers (or limit them) to testing something in specific.

With all the games coming out now days, so many of them have beta tests. These generalized beta tests typically involve the tester in a small survey that rates and sometimes allows a comment. This, however, is not the behind-the-scenes norm for true testing.

True testing is when the developer gives the tester a specific objective or set of objectives. They can range from running into corners at every angle possible, running along walls, trying to find ways that people could exploit the map. These tests usually request lengthy and specific feedback. Beyond that it stems off into mechanics, mob spawns (if there are any), playing the content, testing for bugs in general, imbalances.

Testing is an arduous and time consuming task and anyone who has done a closed beta test or testing in the preliminary stages of a game or program knows that it is painstaking and tiring and typically the average person misconstrues what really goes into the process. I don't know how many people I've spoken to that say 'I would give my right arm to test games.' I am like 'OH, would you now?' I am not sure how many people would want to run into corners for hours on end, trying to climb out of a relatively square map, have to sit at NPC's like vendors and see if there is anyway to duplicate items or glitch the vendors. The list goes on.

I think you're right in asking people not to abuse or insult the testers, classic22, but I also can't help but agree with some (few) players who have pointed out in a non-insulting way (very few) that some of the content released seems to have gone through minimal testing.

However, if people are angry about content I am sure they could go about it in a much more positive and helpful way. Like posting suggestions, proof of their bugs, etc. I have personally been lurking in the BUGS forum and helping validate (the best I can) some of the bugs people are reporting with screenshots. Some players are choosing to flame instead of provide helpful feed back and THAT is hurting the community. Constant flaming makes other more dedicated players/forum goers moody and resentful thus nullifying many of our suggestions and bug reports down to, instead, potential complaints to be overlooked or stacked with the many other 'non helpful threads.'

I would really like to see positive and helpful feedback. I've spent hours in the last few days on the forums. Often times I write lengthy, opinionated, and sometimes verified screenshot result from myself testing a reported BUG. When I see someone post a one sentence reply that neither adds to or has anything to do with the topic I tend to wonder if people aren't just trying to see how high they can get their 'Posts' count.

I am not sure why this thread had to turn into another 'tester bash' when that has nothing to do with the OP's post. Let's try and keep it on topic for the sake of progress. Lets not turn this thread into something to be ignored and instead something people want to ADD to in regards to the SUGGESTIONS AT HAND.

Thanks.

OP got me all excited with that first sentence about mini ogres. Then I realized these weren't the official notes

* Goblin Copters now only drop/carry mini ogres
* Reduced Goblin Copters missile damage by 30%
* Increased King's Game DU a further 10-15
* Reduced difficulty of King's game to be equivalent to Aquanos.

I know we all get frustrated with how this game gets at times, but at least you are some what fixing some key issues. So hopefully we will see some of these changes in the future.

Cheers.

Like Tsuda said :
Aquanos mobs are much more harder than sky city mobs. So you wish it to be harder ;).
Btw. he said Moraggo mobs are the stongest among the shards map mobs ;).

But i agree... it has to be easier again.

I don't believe the difficulty of King's Game will be tweaked further.

D:

campaign is nicely doable, survival is not once you get to wave 20

(speaking with 2K stats here)

Cipher

I don't believe the difficulty of King's Game will be tweaked further.

That's a shame and yeah when i'm talking about the issues with King's game here i'm not talking about about campaign. I'm talking about late wave survival.

Anyway if any of the other 3 things ever happen that will be a good start. However if I had to pick the one I would want the most then it would definitely be copter ogres changed to mini ogres. I have always felt normal ogres being dropped to be just a cheap and boring way to make NM feel harder. So because off this you are forced to use 3 classes if you want to clear survival, Monk, Barb, Summoner. It never use to be like this, at least before with a reasonable amount of Ogre numbers you could somewhat clear survival with other classes.

Well looks like King's Game is end game content then. No matter I definitely have the stats to do it, I just feel sorry for those who were excited about a map that helped them progress to Nightmare.

Update: Just beat it with Huntress in duo. Going to try Huntress again next time as well as AFK.

Can't wait until they patch the Goblin Copter's height. Map still needs at least 10 more DU.

Conclusion: Forget thinking this map is close to helping you progress in NM. It's end game content with out a doubt.

Although you get good mana from even doing 4 or 5 waves in survival so in the end it still helps you progress :p

Update: Just beat it with Huntress in duo. Going to try Huntress again next time as well as AFK.

Can't wait until they patch the Goblin Copter's height. Map still needs at least 10 more DU.

Conclusion: Forget thinking this map is close to helping you progress in NM. It's end game content with out a doubt.

luckily, you can get that 10 extra DU with one of the squares ;)

Haha I mean 10 more DU's more even with the bonus. So i think 135-140 is the sweet spot. Just annoying because i was like 5 reflect walls short from protecting what I wanted and I was definitely not going to get rid of my fireball tower to do so.

If you are going to try survival I reccomend you start around 13-15.

Did they remove the Upgrade tile ? played over 10 times now to wave 20 and no tile :P

Did they remove the Upgrade tile ? played over 10 times now to wave 20 and no tile :P

Knowing Trendy, I'm going to guess that they didn't remove it, but 3-5 patches from now they are going to 'fix' a bug that was making it not trigger.

it still triggers :p, just very rare/random :p

once i had it on the final wave, where nothing really need much ups anymore, then another on one of the first where barely anything was built xD

Cipher

I find the biggest problem on this kings for me anyway... is the speed the monsters run at its crazy

I find the biggest problem on this kings for me anyway... is the speed the monsters run at its crazy

Same. It's like they cloned the Jamaican track team.

we just need a bit more DU, just make it 125! I don't even care if you get rid of the bonus for it! I just want it to start out at 125.

I wish I had room in my build to play with some of the jesters random towers :(.

But if I do try to do this, I get overrun faster then I can say whoopie a tower.

Meh, I really only want more DU for the map, possibly 15 more DU ending up with 130 normal, 140 boosted. That would make it fair without further nerfing anything.

PS: Special map effect, all jester wheel of fortune combos double in effect, both good and bad?

Update: Just beat it with Huntress in duo. Going to try Huntress again next time as well as AFK.

Can't wait until they patch the Goblin Copter's height. Map still needs at least 10 more DU.

Conclusion: Forget thinking this map is close to helping you progress in NM. It's end game content with out a doubt.

see it like u +1

Patch note update:

* Made The King's Game slightly easier.

Sometimes the team likes to throw in a few surprises.

Patch note update:

* Made The King's Game slightly easier.

Sometimes the team likes to throw in a few surprises.

Awesome stuff. This will indeed help many. Going to be interesting to see what's effected.

Now we just need a few more DU's and this map will be golden. :P