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Winterbraid

About progression or lack thereof.

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grind does not make RPG =! some grind is not part of an RPG

ergo : an unattainable dangling carrot not feeling like an unattainable dangling carrot is not grind, but is part of any good rpg.


Look, if you want to believe that and make it part of your personal reality, fine, just don't think it's the universal truth, because it ain't.

End of story.

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Mostly just skimmed over everything, but...

Taking a quick look at the Shards Bundle page on steam it still says it gives "early" access to nightmare mode. Is NM available to non shards players yet? Because if it is not, I guess you can blame all the progression BS on the fact that NM is "still a beta". But if/when NM is available to everyone, you should be able to progress WITHOUT extra DLC.

From what I am seeing it's "Oh, well this DLC map will give you...". That's great, if you have the DLC. Players WITHOUT the DLC should be able to beat the maps they have access to on the hardest settings. It should NOT require hours of grinding to get NM worthy gear.

How much effort does it take to go from easy to insane? Hardly any. Heck you can start the campaign on easy and end the campaign on insane without much trouble at all. But bumping it up to Nightmare? Good luck.

Maybe the way to go about it would be to redo Insane. As it stands it's basically just hard mode with a timer, unless it's one of the newer maps and thus offers something totally awesome at the end. If Insane offered a better jump up in challenge and loot quality than it does now, it could offer a good transition into NM mode - again, WITHOUT needing specific DLC maps.

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Such a interesting and terrific thread. Who would have thought trendy would have made a highly fun, and addictive game haha. It would seem that NM is still in beta mode, and gear above trans is just plain hard(time consuming) to get, without more grind galore! Granted, I enjoy the grind, but the grinding to get the top gear/loot for hours and hours and hours, might not seem worth it lol. Allthough I might dedicate myself to put in the effort. I'll give the game a 100 more hours, then i'll see where i'm at, and if I want to continue plauying.

I already have 180hours logged of gameplay as it is.

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From what I am seeing it's "Oh, well this DLC map will give you...". That's great, if you have the DLC. Players WITHOUT the DLC should be able to beat the maps they have access to on the hardest settings. It should NOT require hours of grinding to get NM worthy gear.


Boss Rush comes with Shards DLC pack, which is currently required to be able to play Nightmare in the first place. I personally consider Shards to be an expansion rather than just a normal DLC, so I can accept it if it's more or less mandatory to progress beyond a certain point.

But yeah, your point is still valid because City in the Cliffs is more of an 'optional,' singular DLC. And then there is the issue of barb, EV, Summoner etc. But I really wouldn't like to start THAT discussion.

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Keep in mind that grinding is present in most games out there that involve leveling up or a currency of any kind. The question of the matter is, how much grinding in relation to how much time spent for a reward/satisfaction is there?

Right now the satisfaction is very low, and the rewards are extremely rare. I hate to use an old example, but for any WoW players who did PvP, you may be able to relate (most other MMO's use the same system anyway). If you lost a battleground 9 times out of 10, but you had a goal (piece of armor, weapon, ect.) in mind, you could essentially make it to that goal with consistent playing, and in such a manner that would allow you to actually calculate how long it would take you to reach that goal if you mostly lost the game.

You earned a set amount of honor/marks for winning and losing in other words (currency in WoW for pvp rewards). In DD, you could run NMHCMM glitter around 10 times, and NEVER see a true upgrade, even if your stats were around the 1400-1500 range. We all the know the potential for an item to drop that is very good IS there, but the rate of which it can drop is far too low to keep the average player entertained with hopes of progression.

Why would I, as a player who isn't hardcore, but a little more than casual, want to spend months upon months farming the original campaign for gear that still may never drop, want to continue playing this game? Is that the goal of the developers, to halt progression to a snail-like stand still? It simply makes no logical sense.

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it's like you're all victims of trendy's nefarious plan

if you get to a point when it's not fun anymore, you stop playing. maybe some of you should stop SOONER, like, before you look back on your entire 150hours of gameplay and judge it on only the last 25 hours which were frustrating for you.

there's plenty of people who ENJOY the grind and chasing the carrot, and have no real issues with the game atm. if the CORE game had the issues you're all whining about, i'd agree it's completely horrible and you wasted your money. as-is, the game has issues but not until they tried to mesh their DLC & increased challenges with the original content, meaning the game basically changes identity once it transitions into NM and if you're not into grinding for loot don't play past a certain point.

at this point, trendy will either choose to smooth out the progression or work on a new project. if they worked on a new project, i wouldn't really feel slighted, because while DD1 wasn't ideal and had issues later on, it was still a totally solid title from a fledgling indie team, and i'd be excited to see what they could do in the future now that they could reflect on what they wish could have gone better in DD. i'm certainly not going to throw a hissy fit because my $10-25 game wasn't perfect after the 100+ hour mark. probably because i have this little thing i like to call "perspective".

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i mean yea it'd be nice if they did right by the customers and made this game absolutely perfect and smoothed progression and removed the walls and eliminated mana hackers somehow and and and

but that'd make them pretty much the first company in the history of gaming companies to put that much effort into a title released forever ago (outside of monthly pay models like MMOs of course), so i don't know why you'd expect more from them than the industry standard, which is pretty much "buyer beware" with a little "we already got your money so go suck an egg" thrown in for flavor, which is hardly trendy's MO.

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Finally, at least one person that gets it. Good read my friend, sums up a lot of my thoughts. Another current issue is that the steam sale caused an influx of new players who think they should already be on endgame, but that's a story for another day.


This so hard. Every person I saw complaining about King Game being made harder was level 78+ wearing mismatched myth and trans gear and had only been playing the game for a few weeks. The fact that every couple of games has a level 80 or higher wearing godly gear is pathetic.


I agree with your post about rewards needing to be better, every step of the way has been a challenge for me, I remember way back when, when I stepped up from weeks of playing Insane to trying out NM Endless Spires in my mismatched Godly and Myth gear. It took days until I could finally start to beat NM maps on my own. Then the step up from 1500 stats to 2K stats was another major wall, and from 2K to 3K was nearly impossible. Misty is supposed to be the in-between levels map, but for me, Misty is far to hard for a 2K stat builder to build without looking up a build. If Kings Game was slightly easier than Misty, I think it would be perfect. It should be hard for a 1500 stat builder to build, but not impossible and shouldn't require every tower to be placed in the exact right spot to stand a chance.

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if your referring to Wow pre WotLK, grinding for pvp gear was 10,000 times more difficult to acquire gear as the emblems and money was so tough to get.

If your not into grinding then RPG's arent for you. Any game that involves leveling with upgradable gear requires grinding, no matter how you want to deny it. If you look at grinding as boring then I don't think this type of game is for you. If you are too lazy to get past the casual play of the game, then you will never see the true potential.

I think the best advice for those who are struggling to get started into mythics and acquiring gold is to find people that are higher level than you that don't mind you sitting in to help upgrade and repair during NM survival. I was with a very nice person today that let my 74 summoner sit in a NMHC Magus. 25 waves later, I acquired 375m mana, 10 pages of mythics and a new pet. I say thats the best way to get rolling.

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Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 didn't feel like grinding.
Planescape torment didn't feel like grinding
Neverwinter Nights didn't feel like grinding
Neverwinter Nights 2 didn't feel like grinding
Mass Effect 1 -> 3 didn't feel like grinding
Dragon age 1 -> 2 didn't feel like grinding
The witcher 1 -> 2 didn't feel like grinding
Gothic 1 -> 3 didn't feel like grinding

Again, the characteristic of an RPG does not necessarily equal grinding. But it does not mean that it can not have a bit of a grind.

However, it is the easiest and unimaginative implementation of the role playing part, but not necessarily the best.

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Dungeon defenders is not really an rpg it is more of an action-TDF

and TDF games are all about killing ****des and ****des of monsters, while protecting your crystal / exit / entrance
From being Demolished/Entered/Exited By ****des and ****des of monsters.

This is what dungeon defenders delivers, You Slice, Pierce, Burn, Electrocute, Crush, Impale hordes and hordes of Monsters. Thus basicly grinding from day one.

On the main topic of the lack of progression. There is plenty of progression. People have spend hundres of hours getting to the end-game point and making progression easier now is an insult to all the efford those peopel have spent getting to that point. Nightmare is the HARDEST difficulty and Should require work. Atleast the later levels would. Once you get to farming do a survival run per day and see how quickly your stats improve.

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Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 didn't feel like grinding.
Planescape torment didn't feel like grinding
Neverwinter Nights didn't feel like grinding
Neverwinter Nights 2 didn't feel like grinding
Mass Effect 1 -> 3 didn't feel like grinding
Dragon age 1 -> 2 didn't feel like grinding
The witcher 1 -> 2 didn't feel like grinding
Gothic 1 -> 3 didn't feel like grinding

Again, the characteristic of an RPG does not necessarily equal grinding. But it does not mean that it can not have a bit of a grind.

However, it is the easiest and unimaginative implementation of the role playing part, but not necessarily the best.


  • Tales of Symphonia didn't feel like grinding (you can for max stats from herb farming, best exspheres, and arte usage)
  • Tales of Vesperia didn't feel like grinding (you can for herb farming and arte usage)
  • Tales of Graces did feel like grinding (moreso because they made arte usage more annoying to grind and halves the stats gained from herbs every new run)
  • X-Blades didn't feel like grinding
  • Infinite Undiscovery did/didn't feel like grinding (you can, but you can get all the achievements without absurd amounts of grinding)
  • Final Fantasy 13 did feel like grinding (loathed those turtles)
  • Disgaea 3 did feel like grinding (but very rewarding for making perfect characters)
  • Record of Agarest War didn't feel like grinding (you can for all the titles and etc)
  • Pokemon did/didn' feel like grinding (only for competitive battles)
  • Nier (been a while since I played it but I think most of the grinding is for getting every weapon and ending)
  • Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles didn't feel like grinding (you can for max stats on all characters)





Overall, I would say the RPG's do have some amounts of grinding but most don't have obscene amounts. I always classified rpg's as games that allow you to build your character however you want. They have many classes, costumes, titles, items, etc. The most important part is that it won't punish you for playing a certain character or for prefering a certain attack. In other words, they encourage diversity.

Dungeon Defenders does have rpg aspects, but it feels too limiting to be an rpg. It just has stats which are limited (forces everyone to pretty much have the same stat build for dps and tower except for wallers for high health walls and tower monk/huntress due to a bigger focus on range), multiple classes but forced to use most of them for stronger builds, so many weapons but only a few are actually good, many dps pets but all are outclassed by seahorse, etc. It's an rpg without options I guess. I would say the tower defense side has options.....but the huge dependence on auras says otherwise. At the very least, the builds themselves have variety even if they use the same set of defenses.

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On the main topic of the lack of progression. There is plenty of progression. People have spend hundres of hours getting to the end-game point and making progression easier now is an insult to all the efford those peopel have spent getting to that point. Nightmare is the HARDEST difficulty and Should require work. Atleast the later levels would. Once you get to farming do a survival run per day and see how quickly your stats improve.


Not sure if that was supposed to be sarcasm or not. But most of my friends run more than one high-end survival run per day, and while it IS possible to get into the 2.5k range yourself EVENTUALLY, those of them who actually possess high-end gear with BALANCED stats (as opposed to 1-2 decent stats with the rest ranging from mediocre to bad like it is the case with myself) admit to having obtained it through gifts or trades.

If you read my post carefully, you'll know that the reasons I present for the progression issues are not the difficulty of getting good gear, they are:

1. The difficulty of getting such gear in Survival,
2. the difficulty of upgrading such gear.

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Not sure if that was supposed to be sarcasm or not. But most of my friends run more than one high-end survival run per day, and while it IS possible to get into the 2.5k range yourself EVENTUALLY, those of them who actually possess high-end gear with BALANCED stats (as opposed to 1-2 decent stats with the rest ranging from mediocre to bad like it is the case with myself) admit to having obtained it through gifts or trades.

If you read my post carefully, you'll know that the reasons I present for the progression issues are not the difficulty of getting good gear, they are:

1. The difficulty of getting such gear in Survival,
2. the difficulty of upgrading such gear.


Well i will agree that Mana seems to be the biggest issue to upgrade gear,with the gear going in the 2-300's of upgrades. And that way way to many weapons drop from the kings's survival i did i got over 30 Trans Monk staffs, But From that gear alone i managed to get my barb from Zero gear to gear once upgraded will bring him in the 2.5k attack range and decent hp.

That was just one run wich i ran on my monk. Now how would you feel if you spend more as 500 hours to get into the 2.5 stat range. And a new map comes out and because of that everyone with 800-1k stats can go to the 2-2.5k range. I think trendy did the right thing by buffing the map. That aside you dont NEED the 3k stat range, with every class that came out things got easier and easier. When you are talking about the elusive 3k stat range, where do you think they get their gear (armor, not pets or weapons) from?

In my oppinion the real problem is not that the survival gear is bad. But that the potential of the bossrush gear is too close to the survival gear. So boss rush should be nerfed.

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Now how would you feel if you spend more as 500 hours to get into the 2.5 stat range. And a new map comes out and because of that everyone with 800-1k stats can go to the 2-2.5k range.


I would feel fine. DD is not a competitive or PvP game, it's a co-op PvE game with a handful of competitive maps that hardly anyone plays. Does the fact that the other guy has 2.5k gear too make my own 2.5k gear worse, cancel my knowledge and experience at this game that I have from my hundreds of game hours, or cancel my accomplishment of having gathered my gear 'the hard way?'

And someone with a half-good sense of economy can obtain such gear even faster than those 800-1k people could with Boss Rush or the pre-patch King's Game, and I doubt nerfing Boss Rush would do anything about that. If anything, it would only deepen the gap between the economists and the regular players.

If anything, I'd be glad to have more potential competent teammates for playing the high-end content.

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Above post is a winner, This is ultimately why I think dd failed is because the devs did not have a clear goal in mind on what the game was and because of that they couldn't make decisions based on that.

The game is a Single Player PVE loot game with the OPTION of multiplayer for better rewards and challenge.

They screwed up bad when they started making PVP maps (just lol) and requires multiplayer maps. Also nerfing/hindering solo play with content additions because someone in multiplayer was AFK farming with a really good build/stats.


for example im a player who likes to complete things by myself getting achievements and progressing through the levels on harder difficulties I never trade because I like farming my own items and progressing at my own pace.

The correct response to afk farming should of been "so what" that's one player/group of players who most likely will buy new content if they can farm better items are GOAL should always be with allowing new players to access are content and progress by themselves so we can attract more players (thus making more money).

However the nerfs/content additions and requirements like killing bosses that require gear got from after you kill them for solo or require a decent team of players lead to the need for trading and large amounts of mana in the form of mana tokens to progress and ruined the economy because players couldn't progress by themselves.

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I have to agree on many of the points you made here. Mostly about the drops. I have not been playing too terribly long (140 or so hours really) However I have been trying to find good myth or trans armour for a week now. I am not speaking an hour a day either. I am talking about long streaks of hours on end each day. I have gotten a few trans which of course had horrible drawbacks to them and were not useful to me because of it. The only reason I was able to get the Trans is because I have been doing Boss rush on insane HC like crazy.

To top it all off because of all the runs I have made I have a large amount of items in my forge I will not be using which I want o be able to sell now. However I have no idea how things are priced. In most other games you can pretty much tell how things are priced. Here, I am like a fish out of water. I even get confused and a little flustered trying to figure it all out. I've come to the conclusion of just pricing them double what I would normally sell them in the tavern. It gets me extra mana and seems reasonable.

It feels a bit slow to me sometimes but I am still exploring the world of DD. I have not made it through all the DLC but I have done most if not all of the commonly run games. I've beaten the DLC with sky city and the such and now can finally go through the portal. I thought I had beaten the campaign as I have done from the deeperwell to the summit. Later finding I also had to do some of the bonus maps? Again, I was confused. It showed me credits! The only reason I even found this out was because I can not do insane survival without completing this task? Not that I have a problem with doing it again. It just seems unusual. (Does that make sense?)

Anyway, before I start rambling some more..I guess what I am saying is there is no clear direction as to where or what I should be doing to improve other then repeat things over and over again to get some better items. I could, like you said grind but it's just not my thing. I don't like going wave after wave of doing the exact same thing over and over and over again. Yes, I know upgrades. Eventually I am going to have to upgrade stuff, but finding something that is worth spending all that mana on is what is my problem.

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Now how would you feel if you spend more as 500 hours to get into the 2.5 stat range. And a new map comes out and because of that everyone with 800-1k stats can go to the 2-2.5k range.


This assumes that the person who spent 500 hours grinding to get into that range is going to look back on the system and say, "Yep, that's about right!" If you think that 500 hours to get to those stats is a sign of good game design... well... I don't know what to tell you. It's like getting mad at people who got the polio vaccine because you survived it the good old fashioned way.

If there were people who spend 150-300 hours getting where I am now without shopping for Trans. items, it means Trendy has improved the game, not that they've invalidated the time I spent. I'm not here to prove anything, so people getting there on their own, but doing it faster because the process is smoother doesn't threaten my ego. I have no desire for everyone else to go through the garbage I've gone through as some sort of hazing process so they can "earn their stripes" because "we had to do it too".

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Above post is a winner, This is ultimately why I think dd failed is because the devs did not have a clear goal in mind on what the game was and because of that they couldn't make decisions based on that.


This quote more or less sums the general direction this thread has taken.
Now, please could, get a life and stop *****ing about every little thing Trendy does

(T) "are making an easy map to bridge the gap"
(HP) "Trendy you morons how could you do this to high end players??
(T) "Ok, we made a mistake, now the bridge is no more"
(LP) "Trendy you morons how could you do this to low end players???
(T) "Ok, now the map is easier than how it was post buff but it's harder than how it was pre buff"
(AP) " Trendy you morons you have no idea of balancing a game, how could you do this to all of us??"

The game is far from being perfect, it is also far from being a failure, get off your ****ing high horses and stop calling it a failure because it ain't, and if you believe that can do any better, well show the world how you build an indie company and do on your first release.

Nobody is forcing anyone at gun point to play this game, I can bet that 99% of the *****ers lurking around paid way less than 20$ for the full package, then come here and act so high and might, show me another game that will easily last you 200 hours, if you don't like it, then don't play it, as easy as that. There are plenty other games out there to choose from, if I was Trendy I wouldn't worry about this anymore, trying to please people is literally impossible, I'd cut support from DD and works towards releasing the sequel.

Some threaten to not buy DD2 upon release if they dare to do this, well, we can be sure those threatening to do that will be the first ones in line to purchase it.

Thanks for your attention and have a nice day.

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This assumes that the person who spent 500 hours grinding to get into that range is going to look back on the system and say, "Yep, that's about right!" If you think that 500 hours to get to those stats is a sign of good game design... well... I don't know what to tell you. It's like getting mad at people who got the polio vaccine because you survived it the good old fashioned way.

If there were people who spend 150-300 hours getting where I am now without shopping for Trans. items, it means Trendy has improved the game, not that they've invalidated the time I spent. I'm not here to prove anything, so people getting there on their own, but doing it faster because the process is smoother doesn't threaten my ego. I have no desire for everyone else to go through the garbage I've gone through as some sort of hazing process so they can "earn their stripes" because "we had to do it too".


Pretty much this. This is a single player games; spending around 150 - 300 hours to clear all the content and get really good stats is perfectly reasonable. I don't get why people are so in love with spending hours upon hours doing survival runs and getting no useable gear to show for it.

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I certainly am not, I like to clear all game content within 200 hours, including all achievements. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

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+1 for the insight. The grind is absolutely painful. I get that it takes work, but as stated before the reward is not that great for time spent. The worst part is that the mobs are so beefy that each map in NM becomes a gear check.

I for one want a game that has a great deal of longevity and requires me to put work in, but I just wish I could spend less time grinding and sifting through garbage loot and more time playing the game.

Grinding loot with the current system is putting in the work, but for less than minimum wage.


I put in something as a feature request in relating to this. You know how Loot shows green arrows/thumbs up if it appears to be better somehow? Well they need to add an option to let you decide what shows up as green, and based on what stats.

Say i'm looking for tower equipment and i have a piece on that is +200 atk and +200 speed. I could set it to search for only pieces with +250 atk or +250 speed or both, kind of like an advanced search option but for ground loot, or even for the item box/forge

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I think grind would be doable IF loot-system was better. Instead of dropping lots of random crap on ground (when we are supposed to actually defend..) game could generate less but better loot after each wave.
Now you have to hope that good pieces stay and then check everything because green color doesn't actually tell anything (like that armor which had only one stat which was like 5...).

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The game is far from being perfect, it is also far from being a failure, get off your ****ing high horses and stop calling it a failure because it ain't, and if you believe that can do any better, well show the world how you build an indie company and do on your first release.


The game isn't a failure, the nightmare balancing has been a failure. The lack of more solo friendly maps (that deliver the same progression option as the more grouporiented ones) has been somewhat of a failure.


Nobody is forcing anyone at gun point to play this game, I can bet that 99% of the *****ers lurking around paid way less than 20$ for the full package, then come here and act so high and might, show me another game that will easily last you 200 hours, if you don't like it, then don't play it, as easy as that. There are plenty other games out there to choose from, if I was Trendy I wouldn't worry about this anymore, trying to please people is literally impossible, I'd cut support from DD and works towards releasing the sequel.


In real life i'm scrooge. Even if I got 400 hours of fun out of it, I'll try to squeeze 450 hours of fun out of it. And DD has a lot of potential if they can solve the issue of the balancing. But as it stands for me DD2 is not an instant buy. Sorry it just isn't, unless in the next 2 months they solve all the balancing issues.

And I spend more like 50€ on this title. And you can be sure it has been more then I have spent on most of the tripple A games that have been coming out.

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This quote more or less sums the general direction this thread has taken.
Now, please could, get a life and stop *****ing about every little thing Trendy does

(T) "are making an easy map to bridge the gap"
(HP) "Trendy you morons how could you do this to high end players??
(T) "Ok, we made a mistake, now the bridge is no more"
(LP) "Trendy you morons how could you do this to low end players???
(T) "Ok, now the map is easier than how it was post buff but it's harder than how it was pre buff"
(AP) " Trendy you morons you have no idea of balancing a game, how could you do this to all of us??"

The game is far from being perfect, it is also far from being a failure, get off your ****ing high horses and stop calling it a failure because it ain't, and if you believe that can do any better, well show the world how you build an indie company and do on your first release.

Nobody is forcing anyone at gun point to play this game, I can bet that 99% of the *****ers lurking around paid way less than 20$ for the full package, then come here and act so high and might, show me another game that will easily last you 200 hours, if you don't like it, then don't play it, as easy as that. There are plenty other games out there to choose from, if I was Trendy I wouldn't worry about this anymore, trying to please people is literally impossible, I'd cut support from DD and works towards releasing the sequel.

Some threaten to not buy DD2 upon release if they dare to do this, well, we can be sure those threatening to do that will be the first ones in line to purchase it.

Thanks for your attention and have a nice day.


While I do agree that pleasing any fanbase can be difficult as hell, leaving the end-game content as is will be a big thorn in Trendy's side if they do release a sequel.

Some people stick to a boycott y'know. I love the Mass Effect series, but I still haven't bought Mass Effect 3 because of the only Origin install, I haven't watched any lp's of the game, and have avoided all spoilers of the topic. If Trendy doesn't get their stuff together and balance the progression curve, you can be sure as hell I won't be purchasing any more games from Trendy either.

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