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Winterbraid

About progression or lack thereof.

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I am a old player, and yes, right now its ridiculously more difficult, specially without EV and summoner.

Before the ev, we only had spiders, and the Squire was 35% more powerful (nerfed just when EV came out, surprise?).

2 harpoons with guardian were pretty much godmode.
I lost the count of so many summit survivals i did. Now its like 271276x more difficult with flying meat shields with just ridiculous damage.

The djinns never have been a real issue. And sharkens are doable with proper build.
Right now, without summoner and EV you are pretty much done in the game.

If you are going to remember the old times, remember with all the details, not just "that was not so easy as you think", because the "Squire is king" age was a freefarm.

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it'd sell, and damned well. DD is a solid title, and if they learned from their mistakes (keep the game full of options but give a more clear-cut path so people don't feel like they can't progress to the next level), it'd sell better than DD did.

DD has problems, and if they addressed those in a second title, i'd be interested.

after how they handled this game, i dont think most people trust them to do well

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after how they handled this game, i dont think most people trust them to do well


Well, if nothing changes and they do move on, I will probably tell people to keep their money. I'm not sure if I could trust them with a second game if they cannot even take care of the first properly. Or, worse yet, leave this game with all the glaring issues it currently has and THEN make another game.

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I agree with most of the points made, but the thing is that no one really has right to criticize.
They made the game in their vision and if you don't like a game don't play it.
Sure you put money into it, but that is a risk we take as gamers... especially us pc gamers with a no return or trade in policy.

If you guys want the game changed so badly use the development kit and play in open from now on with those changes.
It's like me with vanilla skyrim... I hated it, sooo I took it into my own hands and have changed a good 50 percent of the game with personal modifications.

Altogether great post, very well thought out.
And the criticism overall from the tc was spot on in areas of critique and the way he went about it.
But some of the other people are going overboard a teensy bit with their comments on the situation.

And you can correct me if I'm wrong on the note of using ddk because I've never used it/never will.
So I have no idea what is/isn't possible with it, or if it's a remotely viable option for what was suggested.

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Im more or less happy with the current state of the game tbh, i just want to see more maps :P

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I agree with most of the points made, but the thing is that no one really has right to criticize.
They made the game in their vision and if you don't like a game don't play it.
Sure you put money into it, but that is a risk we take as gamers... especially us pc gamers with a no return or trade in policy.

If you guys want the game changed so badly use the development kit and play in open from now on with those changes.
It's like me with vanilla skyrim... I hated it, sooo I took it into my own hands and have changed a good 50 percent of the game with personal modifications.


Yours is a commonly used argument, but sadly, that's not how things work in this world.

Games are fundamentally, as the name implies, made for gamers. Not for game developers. And we have every right to criticize them regardless of whether we paid for them, were given them for free, or even just saw them being played on a friend's monitor. Because if we - the gamers - don't have the right to criticize games, then who does?

And it's not that we don't like those games or hate them.

If I didn't like DD, do you think I would have bothered spending half a night writing a post about it?

If you REALLY hated Skyrim, would YOU have bothered launching the editor and changing 50% of it?

The reason we criticize games, or take the editors and attempt to change them ourselves, is because we see many good things in them, but at the same time see many things that could be better. We love games, so we want to see them improved. You launched the editor because you wanted to improve the game for yourself, I post because I want to see it improved for everybody.

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The basic issue of DD is its loot generation vs its difficulty to farm said loot.

When nm came out progression was fairly ok from non-nm to nm, however lacked on going from nm campaign to survival due to the difficulty of the bosses.

The addition of new mobs make the game drastically harder due to the fact you had to Deal with them AND what you where all ready dealing with and at specific stat levels created walls that where not there before. In addition to this the loot from playing those maps did not change at all in response to the increased difficulty what further hurt new players. They also nerfed classes/towers and that made the issue even worse.

a long story short is if you want to make a loot based rng game MAKE SURE YOUR RNG SYSTEM IS REWARDING. This is one of the major issues that KILL rng based games and looses the games company money.

Looses money cause it annoys people because progression requires a large investment and/or is flawed, this intern makes them less likely to play and less likely of inviting friends to play. Other players can do easy research and find out the rng sucks that could mean them not buying the product.

Im not asking to be hand fed uber items, what im asking for is a more clear and streamlined rng system that rewards the player for playing. Hence one of my favourite games is Dark Souls because the reward for learning what to do and not to do is there and the game doesn't have cheap you lose cause to don't have X gear/ X build.

Yes in all games there is gonna be the best way to do something, and yes their may be players that create "afk modes/easy mode strats" but as long as the normal player can play and have fun and get REWARDED you are in a very good place as a games company.

E.g. then you can crap out dlcs that include new maps to make money

This single issue is the cause all the hate the game gets from beta testers to character/tower nerfs and hacked items. A point about the nerfing of towers/classes is because its in relation to the LOOT, nerfing a tower/class would be fine if the LOOT could counter act the nerf by REWARDING the player with better gear for the increased difficulty.

Trendy can fix DD and I don't say that lightly because most companies cant

There are also a lot of thing Trendy have done right, its the reason why anyone bothers posting on the fourms

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My thoughts:

Weapons drop more than armor True. Weapons are needed less then armor True. Weapon drops suck for the most part. Steam saws, Light knights, and eternia greatswords are better than there counterparts. The same can be said about the other reward weapons for their respective classes. So the only weapon drops to look for on the ground are tower weapons.

City in the cliffs on insane imo is harder than deeper well NM. Kings game on hard HC does not give me the same quality of weapons most of the time as it does you.

[QUOTE]Wait... -100 hero attack, nevermind.[/QUOTE] Every class needs attack(or tower attack) . So this means that some armor is just not usable in high end if it doesn't have attack.

[QUOTE]alternative other than hours upon hours upon HOURS of survival.[/QUOTE] Actually shipwreck can give a good amount of mana and is afkable with decent stats. The loot it drops sucks but it gives good mana I usually get 3-400Mill per run with 1 extra controller plugged in. Kings game gives about 200Mill per person with 2 people each having a controller plugged in. 100Mill each hero. plus you get the rewards. Survival gives good mana but it isn't the only way to get mana. Survival is almost the only way to get good armor and pets.

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uhhh... i think you guys are missing some key points here.

this game isn't a freakin' mmo. it's getting ridiculous hours of play by the farm-happy types, and it's BECAUSE the entire end-game is a d2-esque loot grind. if you expect more of an endgame for a steam game you probably spent about 10-20 bucks on, then you're delusional.

keep some measure of perspective here... you're complaining that the game isn't ideal after it crosses around the 100 hour mark. dot dot *****-bleepin' dot, peeps. if the first 100 hours of the game is solid and you're not crazy about how smoothed out the last few hundred hours of gameplay is on your 10 dollar game, i'd have to say you're completely bonkers to utter statements like "after how they handled this game, i dont think most people trust them to do well"

herp derp if dd2 comes out and it's run as incompetently as the first, i may pay 10-20 bucks and only get a few hundred hours of gameplay out of it before it's not fun for me anymore

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Personally, I am finding it very frustrating, just started a few months ago, now stuck with my characters all in the x/2.5k/1k/2k region (move stats around), got Squirre, Summoner and Monk over 78 and trappess and EV over 75. Since last patch I cannot even make it past the second wave in NMHC at King's game, which is pretty stupid.

I do feel like a massive amount of grind is required to play this game and it has stopped being fun and feeling like a chore, ends chances are I will stop playing at some point.

The worst thing is repetition, laying down the same traps from the 100th time and upgrading them feels boring, not what you want in a game. The total lack of documentation and explanation of abilities, even what stats do and influence ... etc, is a bit shocking, and a big wall for new players.

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yea, hence me saying that the best lesson the devs can learn for a potential DD2 is smoothing the progression curve and make it more likely that a player can progress WITHOUT having to look online for help.

but it's hard to call dd a failure by any stretch when the people who're complaining have all logged a good 100+ hours in already.

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true but a bad ending can kill a good game

*Cough*Mass Effect 3*Cough*

The ending of the game affects how you look back on it far more strongly than the start or the midgame.

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uhhh... i think you guys are missing some key points here.

this game isn't a freakin' mmo. it's getting ridiculous hours of play by the farm-happy types, and it's BECAUSE the entire end-game is a d2-esque loot grind. if you expect more of an endgame for a steam game you probably spent about 10-20 bucks on, then you're delusional.

keep some measure of perspective here... you're complaining that the game isn't ideal after it crosses around the 100 hour mark. dot dot *****-bleepin' dot, peeps. if the first 100 hours of the game is solid and you're not crazy about how smoothed out the last few hundred hours of gameplay is on your 10 dollar game, i'd have to say you're completely bonkers to utter statements like "after how they handled this game, i dont think most people trust them to do well"

herp derp if dd2 comes out and it's run as incompetently as the first, i may pay 10-20 bucks and only get a few hundred hours of gameplay out of it before it's not fun for me anymore


you seem to be miss the point its not the amount of time played that is the the issue. Its the fact the flaws in the loot generation and difficulty in farming said loot wastes the time of the player and makes the game less fun overall.

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You also have to consider that not being able to complete the content itself is a cost. It may not be financial but some people really don't like leaving games unfinished and being forced to do so because your fate is in the hands of the RNG can mar the whole experience.

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Yours is a commonly used argument, but sadly, that's not how things work in this world.

Games are fundamentally, as the name implies, made for gamers. Not for game developers. And we have every right to criticize them regardless of whether we paid for them, were given them for free, or even just saw them being played on a friend's monitor. Because if we - the gamers - don't have the right to criticize games, then who does?

And it's not that we don't like those games or hate them.

If I didn't like DD, do you think I would have bothered spending half a night writing a post about it?

If you REALLY hated Skyrim, would YOU have bothered launching the editor and changing 50% of it?

The reason we criticize games, or take the editors and attempt to change them ourselves, is because we see many good things in them, but at the same time see many things that could be better. We love games, so we want to see them improved. You launched the editor because you wanted to improve the game for yourself, I post because I want to see it improved for everybody.


Well said!

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complete the content?

it's like we're playing two different games. the RNG *is* the endgame content. i'm not saying it doesn't have its issues (i've argued against them plenty myself), but it sounds like you guys are comparing this game to something else entirely. NM mode is very much a "new game+" mode (it doesn't even EXIST on consoles), and it's pretty purposefully set up so you're chasing the dangling loot carrot. you CAN beat it, but you're somewhat at the mercy of RNG... just like d2, d3, torchlight, PoE, and every other loot-centric game (WoW included, since RNG plays a factor there too)

you're all making it sound like the game is unplayable in NM mode, and that couldn't be further from the truth. it's playable and "beatable", it just has rough patches. could it use smoothing and a serious rework of the problem areas? yes. is it an unplayable disappointment and beneath what you'd expect from a small indy company? hell no. diablo 3 is going through it's own RNG, economy, & balance issues, and it's got the highest production values imaginable from the must trusted name in gaming, so i don't know why you'd expect perfection from a company as small as trendy.

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I dislike diablo 3 more then I dislike this game.

In any case before the "new game+" mode it didn't feel so much like one was smashing his head into a brick wall. I would prefer to see that experience return on this "new game+" mode. If that means I do not have the best gear available to mankind... then I don't care. I would like however, to be able to have fun while I play, and not feel like it being a chore in the neverending chase of this dangling carrot.

And a propper progression path would seriously help with this.

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so many people talkin about the RNG, i feel i must chime in =)

so yea RNG is random, we all get that. however in my last 30 hours of play i ran roughly 10 survivals NMHCMM to wave 30, takes about 3 hours per run for me. i received 1 supreme armor and 1 ultimate armor. that is some seriously rare RNG, ok fine they want it to be rare. but here's the kicker, BOTH pieces i obtained had stats that were equivalent to MYTHICAL gear.

if the supreme/ultimate armor is really gonna be so rare that it takes roughly 15 hours of grinding for ONE piece of random slot and random type, then it NEEDS to at least have good stats. either the gear needs to be made more common, or it needs to have it's minimum stats re-evaluated. 30 hours of farming and all i got was 2 pieces of gear that were mythical equivalents, meaning worthless to practically all players lol. sorry but that's terrible design lol.

after 30 hours of farming the hardest survival maps i should have SOMETHING to show for it...even if it was just a trade only item that i was seeking to trade to another player.

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I am one of those "New" players who bought the game during the summer sale. Why do the old players frown upon new faces? Yes I've met some of the trolls and they are quite annoying but all you have to honestly do is just stand back and let them embarass themselves in combat. I think everyone including myself starting out, is in this gigantic race to get to 70 and once you get there your like, now what do I do? In the end it all goes down to basic RPG fundamentals. And this very basic and archaic rule in RPG's will seperate the fair weather players and the dedicated players who get it. The basic fundamental rule is you get what you put into it. Time, stradegy, a bit of luck and most importantly patience is key to becoming successful in RPGs. This game isn't any different. I do agree with the gap of difficulty between insane and nightmare since i'm a new player, but I had to sit back and realize that the nightmare difficulty is fairly new and insane was the hardest difficulty since release. Sadly new players especially young players won't appreciate the time and effort the veterans put into their gear with upgrades. So to put it bluntly if your unsatisfied with your not being able to solo this level, or survive that wave. Try lower difficulties, grind for mana so you can upgrade your gear. The newness will die down for most of the players from the summer sale. I plan on staying for a long time, as in my situation I already owned the game on Xbox when it was released XBLA. Being a long time gamer of over 20 years and RPG's my personal favorite genre, I have an understanding and appreciation for such a great game. In my few weeks time of playing I've beaten all original campaigns on Insane Hardcore and loved every minute of it. I've recently beated the Eternia Shards on hard, and gearing for insane.

If Trendy isn't going to change their coding even though you disagree with it, you can either deal with it like the rest of us or try another game. The disadvantages in the game are just as important to the gameplay as the advantages. Adapt and overcome.

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grind does not make rpg


Uhm... no, granted that this game takes it to a far extreme but, unless you are talking about a dumbed down rpg of the likes you see these days, grind has always made part of rpgs.

Grind for EXP
Grind for (currency)
Grind for loot.

heck I even remember FF3us, not the brightest game out there when it came to difficulty, you could walk straight all the way to the end, or you could grind for hours for the rarest loot.

Of course it didn't mean grind for days for the chance of receiving an upgrade, but the grind was there.

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Uhm... no, granted that this game takes it to a far extreme but, unless you are talking about a dumbed down rpg of the likes you see these days, grind has always made part of rpgs.

Grind for EXP
Grind for (currency)
Grind for loot.

heck I even remember FF3us, not the brightest game out there when it came to difficulty, you could walk straight all the way to the end, or you could grind for hours for the rarest loot.

Of course it didn't mean grind for days for the chance of receiving an upgrade, but the grind was there.


grind does not make RPG =! some grind is not part of an RPG

ergo : an unattainable dangling carrot not feeling like an unattainable dangling carrot is not grind, but is part of any good rpg.

edit : =! means not equal to

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