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About progression or lack thereof.


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First, don't call me fool, if I recall correctly I wasn't replying to you so don't be sticking your ****ing nose in everything. On the other hand, it's super funny that you try to teach me how old players had it and then cook up some stupid story, please, next time, don't call someone fool while making a fool of yourself in the process, really shows your IQ.


Maybe they were referring to you as a Fool. You know, the male Jester? :p

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There we go again with the old players had it easier bull****, it simply is not true.

Try dealing with djinn without summoners or evs or barbs or jesters, that's how old players had it.


There's no point in arguing it; it's easier to believe that the old players had gear handed to them and that the game caters to the high end players etc etc. The people who were playing when each shard part was released know what is was like, so don't even sweat it.

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Maybe they were referring to you as a Fool. You know, the male Jester? :p


No, that was an absolute epic fail at both following the thread and reading comprehension. If you want to join him and revolve together in his stupidity, be my guest.

There's no point in arguing it; it's easier to believe that the old players had gear handed to them and that the game caters to the high end players etc etc. The people who were playing when each shard part was released know what is was like, so don't even sweat it.


Point taken, won't waste anymore of my time with it.

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First, don't call me fool, if I recall correctly I wasn't replying to you so don't be sticking your ****ing nose in everything. On the other hand, it's super funny that you try to teach me how old players had it and then cook up some stupid story, please, next time, don't call someone fool while making a fool of yourself in the process, really shows your IQ.


Ah get off your high horse, I wasn't being THAT serious, but there is some element of truth to what I was saying. Survival was literally the only way to get decent gear, and each wave took nearly 30 minutes each OR MORE, and back then the disconnects were way more common than they are now. It's mostly just Steam going down for Maintenance now as opposed to a joint effort from Steam and TrendyEnt.

There was one benefit though, the gear was great without being too great that it would end up rolling back stats, so I guess there was some feeling of progress there. You get to a high wave of survival, you get some good loot as a reward. Now? You can do a whole Survival and end up with a pet that has over six negative stats, is only worth 53 Mana to sell, and there wasn't a single good drop throughout the entire thing.

AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HOW STUPID THE DARK ELF WARRIORS USED TO BE!

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Ah get off your high horse, I wasn't being THAT serious, but there is some element of truth to what I was saying. Survival was literally the only way to get decent gear, and each wave took nearly 30 minutes each OR MORE, and back then the disconnects were way more common than they are now. It's mostly just Steam going down for Maintenance now as opposed to a joint effort from Steam and TrendyEnt.

There was one benefit though, the gear was great without being too great that it would end up rolling back stats, so I guess there was some feeling of progress there. You get to a high wave of survival, you get some good loot as a reward. Now? You can do a whole Survival and end up with a pet that has over six negative stats, is only worth 53 Mana to sell, and there wasn't a single good drop throughout the entire thing.

AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HOW STUPID THE DARK ELF WARRIORS USED TO BE!


I started on the xbox back in November. And I do remember those survivals... I got 1 giraffe 1 time... I do not want to say how long it took. But damn was it awful. And funny story, I lost all my data on the xbox due to this weird save glitch. So that's why I am now on PC. But it was bad...

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I started on the xbox back in November. And I do remember those survivals... I got 1 giraffe 1 time... I do not want to say how long it took. But damn was it awful. And funny story, I lost all my data on the xbox due to this weird save glitch. So that's why I am now on PC. But it was bad...


I know that feel.

There was nothing that quite filled you up with rage than going through survival, just to get ****blocked by a Dark Elf Warrior who can one shot all of your defenses and not get hit by any of the towers because of that three second invincibility thing they had going. But, in spite of that, it really was the time it took to go through each wave that was a killer. I actually did get to the final wave, once. It had nearly 20,000 Mobs to kill... it took almost an hour, or maybe slightly over, just to get through that one wave. These days you can do half an entire survival in that time.

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I know that feel.

There was nothing that quite filled you up with rage than going through survival, just to get ****blocked by a Dark Elf Warrior who can one shot all of your defenses and not get hit by any of the towers because of that three second invincibility thing they had going. But, in spite of that, it really was the time it took to go through each wave that was a killer. I actually did get to the final wave, once. It had nearly 20,000 Mobs to kill... it took almost an hour, or maybe slightly over, just to get through that one wave. These days you can do half an entire survival in that time.


I never did beat mistymire on Insane back in December. I had like 170~ tower stats, but since my builds were centered around my squire, the spiders would nuke me. The guns were webbed constantly, and I didn't have enough DU to properly protect my guns, with how weak characters were at that point on Xbox at least. I had to settle for a Hard completion, before losing my data. Long story short, when Mistymire first came out on Xbox, it was brutal.

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I never did beat mistymire on Insane back in December. I had like 170~ tower stats, but since my builds were centered around my squire, the spiders would nuke me. The guns were webbed constantly, and I didn't have enough DU to properly protect my guns, with how weak characters were at that point on Xbox at least. I had to settle for a Hard completion, before losing my data. Long story short, when Mistymire first came out on Xbox, it was brutal.


I'm not familiar with the Console Versions myself, but did you get the Super Loot update at all, when the first part of the Shards content arrived? I know it was still tough on PC, in spite of the "Super Loot" if you could get it, but I seem to vaguely recall Spiders being complete arseholes until I just went completely insane and littered the entire map with Proximity Mine Traps. It actually worked... somehow. Of course when I bought that into Nightmare, I had refined the insanity into something that made more sense, but then that was also around the time I discovered that Nightmare mode was, in british terms, a tosser.

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I'm not familiar with the Console Versions myself, but did you get the Super Loot update at all, when the first part of the Shards content arrived? I know it was still tough on PC, in spite of the "Super Loot" if you could get it, but I seem to vaguely recall Spiders being complete arseholes until I just went completely insane and littered the entire map with Proximity Mine Traps. It actually worked... somehow. Of course when I bought that into Nightmare, I had refined the insanity into something that made more sense, but then that was also around the time I discovered that Nightmare mode was, in british terms, a tosser.


I remember reading about that super loot. Xbox never got it during my play. It came months later due to how Microsoft charges per patch, so Indy developers try to lump as much in one patch as they can. It was brutal to say the least with what I had to work with. I had a full compliment of builders, but it just didn't happen. I was progressing, until I lost my data. So I may have beaten it, but I shall never know.

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If trendy reset every players gear and characters and people played the game 100% of the player base would agree progression is off.

However due to some players farming before X patch and acquired X gear they are fine with the way it is.

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If trendy reset every players gear and characters and people played the game 100% of the player base would agree progression is off.

However due to some players farming before X patch and acquired X gear they are fine with the way it is.


They don't need to do any resets, everyone and their grandmothers guinea pig know that this game is fundamentally flawed and broken in almost every possible respect and have contributed their own solutions and ideas to make the game more rewarding and have a path of progression that makes sense. Yet all the development team seem to care about it shoveling out more paid DLC and throwing around buffs/nerfs without any kind of proper testing. It makes me feel sorry for the Community Team, for as great a job as they do, they have to be the ones who have to go in there and deal with the increasingly riled masses. It should be the dev team having to come in and own up to their **** up.

I seriously hope they aren't seriously considering making a new game or a sequel to this one, because if they can't even take care of their first child properly, what the hell makes them think they'll fare better in another one?

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I agree with you all, and I have no issues completing the current content because I had farmed gear prior to this becoming near impossible for new players.

The main reason I am still playing is to help new players, with the occasional upgrade here and there. I have found it even harder to help others since the drop qualities have been reduced. I only see this game going to a bad place right now.

I want to see this game saved, I truly enjoy this game and what potential it has to be even better. Start focusing on Balance and fixing of the problems.

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I agree with you all, and I have no issues completing the current content because I had farmed gear prior to this becoming near impossible for new players.

The main reason I am still playing is to help new players, with the occasional upgrade here and there. I have found it even harder to help others since the drop qualities have been reduced. I only see this game going to a bad place right now.

I want to see this game saved, I truly enjoy this game and what potential it has to be even better. Start focusing on Balance and fixing of the problems.


I am on the same boat. After all, no one wants to see a game fail or even hopes for it (well except maybe anything to do with EA), but at the same time i'm not just going to stand by and stay quiet while the same problems, mistakes and complaints are happening and yet all that seems to happen is response is "Here, have some paid DLC!". If that's the model that the company is going to go for, then i'm sorry, but i'm going to be singing from the rooftops to stay away from your game and any future titles to save people the disappointment and bitterness.

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I believe if people read all of the patch notes from last October until the latest 7.40c it would be very interesting what they would say.

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i'm not going to get into a serious debate about this because it's been bantered around endlessly for waaay too long, and obviously these walls exist, so i'll simply say this:

1) afk shops are (sadly) the easiest way to progress past the early walls.
2) summoners make every map infinitely easier. if you're stuck, the easy pay-to-win solution is buy the summoner and have solutions to all those annoying NM mobs (archers/mages alone stop spiders, wyverns, djinn, help with copter-ogres, etc, and do all of this without costing you bumper DU for spiders, mage/squire ranged damage for wyverns/djinn, etc). summoner is essentially the hard counter to all of the shard map mobs, and having a friend play one well (sitting in the biggest chokes, grabbing tons of mana fast then going in and out of overlord mode with full mana) makes all the difference. if you have a good summoner who sits in overlord mode the whole time, it can make hard maps trivial.
3) wanting to do well in NM mode means accepting the grindy nature of the game. everything up to NM is for casuals and after it is for the people who are willing to do maps over and over again for upgrades. just be glad they modified survival maps so you can start on any wave, and the waves themselves aren't obscenely long. it sucked having a breach on a 7k+ mob wave and having to start again from wave 9 or something, i assure you. they've made it so breaches happen more often now, and more chaotically, but the waves themselves are shorter... basically making the waves more intense instead of snooze-fests where you watched tower hp bars.

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i'm not going to get into a serious debate about this because it's been bantered around endlessly for waaay too long, and obviously these walls exist, so i'll simply say this:

1) afk shops are (sadly) the easiest way to progress past the early walls.
2) summoners make every map infinitely easier. if you're stuck, the easy pay-to-win solution is buy the summoner and have solutions to all those annoying NM mobs (archers/mages alone stop spiders, wyverns, djinn, help with copter-ogres, etc, and do all of this without costing you bumper DU for spiders, mage/squire ranged damage for wyverns/djinn, etc). summoner is essentially the hard counter to all of the shard map mobs, and having a friend play one well (sitting in the biggest chokes, grabbing tons of mana fast then going in and out of overlord mode with full mana) makes all the difference. if you have a good summoner who sits in overlord mode the whole time, it can make hard maps trivial.
3) wanting to do well in NM mode means accepting the grindy nature of the game. everything up to NM is for casuals and after it is for the people who are willing to do maps over and over again for upgrades. just be glad they modified survival maps so you can start on any wave, and the waves themselves aren't obscenely long. it sucked having a breach on a 7k+ mob wave and having to start again from wave 9 or something, i assure you. they've made it so breaches happen more often now, and more chaotically, but the waves themselves are shorter... basically making the waves more intense instead of snooze-fests where you watched tower hp bars.


I agree up to 3, nightmare is grindy because the devs made it grindy by over inflating enemy stats nerfing towers/ramps, adding new mobs that combo together that ultimately means you need higher stats than what the gear drops from that map for doing those waves.

The issue dungeon defenders has is its difficulty VS its loot generation, they have done NOTHING even thought the difficulty has been increased since the release of nm. They added new tiers of items but that's pointless if you cant get those items.

I would not be posting about progression if they had increased the quality of the loot on all maps and all difficulties by a realistic margin they haven't.

What I mean by this is not some "pacifying buff so leave us alone" increase an actual increase that allows a player to play nm get gear from doing low waves that allow the player to get to higher waves. ATM the game doesn't do this it has a hidden "Requires X characters and X stats to play X content sticker on maps"

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Seriously the DEV's should look more at the Casuals. Shard 4 is out so no "NM is beta" blabla anymore. The situation doesn't concern those, who got Endgame Gear always before the next shard. If there was a "Ladderreset" for everybody, they would feel it to.
At the moment it's very easy to step into nightmare if you use shops, but a total pain in the *** if you don't. Lootquality at the campaigne maps defenetly should be increased so that you have ~600-800 Stats before you break into NM. Even then its very challenging because the NM Gameplay is a whole different story compared to insane.. the gap between is way to big.

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well i didn't say that the game SHOULD be grindy, i just said that that's the way the game IS. you can play fairly casually up to NM, but once you hit 70, the game changes entirely. it goes from a linear progression that's fairly obvious and intuitive, to an absolute crawl where xp comes hard, loot comes harder, and figuring out what to do next comes hardest of all (to the point where you NEED to read the forums or get help from a friend)

lots of us would like to see the progression evened out so it extends into NM, but at this point it doesn't seem to be in the cards. the reason for this is fairly obvious... DD is probably considered fairly "complete" at this point (given that they're only doing patchwork fixes at this point, instead of full revamps), and the larger staff they've acquired recently is being put into the development cycle of a new game, be it DD2 or something different. they're just not willing to talk about what they're working on yet, for a variety of reasons (people saying they're abandoning this title, new game isn't far enough along to show yet, etc etc)

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I don't know if I would buy it. I'm barely playing it now, I'm getting so turned off that I'm not getting any good rewards/drops while I play and waste hours of time while playing.

Everything also costs way too much mana to upgrade after awhile also. Like pets for example, I fully upped a seahorse with 230 ups, too me over 12 billion mana to do it. While it is helping me a lot more, I wish I put that mana in upping more of my armors and putting it into resistances and hp, which I need more for my monk.

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You can start nm with at least 400/800 stat by farming insane. When nm was just spider no trans or high stat pets rewards was on insane.

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if they turn people off who bought their first game why would they buy their second


it'd sell, and damned well. DD is a solid title, and if they learned from their mistakes (keep the game full of options but give a more clear-cut path so people don't feel like they can't progress to the next level), it'd sell better than DD did.

DD has problems, and if they addressed those in a second title, i'd be interested.

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There is one thing I need to add to the debate about progression that I thought about for a while recently.

I am no stranger to grinding, you are looking at someone with a 700+ hour Disgaea 3 save who has spent literally hundreds of hours "completing" class world with not 1 but 5 unique characters. For anyone not versed in Disgaea that is effectively me repeating the same 15 minute sequence of events over 1000 times a sequence which is itself 3 near identical 4 minute runs of a 10 floor dungeon with a slight variation every 3rd run.
That is grinding to another level and the resulting benefits to doing so are completely unessesary.

You may be asking why Dungeon Defenders grind to progress annoys me so much then since I clearly dont mind grinding and the rewards to doing so in this game are actually important to game progress. It is a trick question realky because Dungeon Defenders grind to progress doesn't annoy me, its grinding to consistently get nothing of value to progress that does. The reason why I waste- erm spent so many hours grinding in Disgaea is because I valued having perfect characters and every cycle i went through was definitively bringing me closer to the goal.

I understand DD has a random loot system and I love random loot systems, good ole Hack and Slash RPGs are my favorite game genre, what they get right that DD is missing in this latest content is that the big shiny stuff is supposed to be there to amaze you when you find it,and let you feel kind of godly for a while untill the enemies start to outrank you. The progress should be possible, factoring in skill, with the above average drops, not the real top end minimal flaws stuff you often need to find in this.

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A lot of good points here. The arguments seem perfectly sound to me. I think the varied play styles of individuals make some more susceptible to certain walls than others. I find myself in the "bad at economy" section. More specifically, I'm not interested in selling my stuff for profit. That isn't fun for me, but neither is grinding survival so wtf fml xD. I may be a minority idk, but I don't like looking up builds online. On the other hand, I don't like spending an hour doing a map just to fail because djinn desummoned my pants while I took a peep at my map for armor! Or an alpaca outa nowhere wyvern one shots my crystal and I have no idea what direction it even came from! I was pretty desperate so I took to the forums to find ideas, and you have given me some, thx.

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i must admit i agree. ive managed to get above the place you're stuck at, but i still detest the massive grind end game presents. ive got all my builders: ev, squire, trapper, auras, summons, and walls, all fully decked out in trans gear. i also have 3 active dps heros fully decked out in trans gear.

having said all that, finding supreme/ultimate gear is damn near impossible. i realize your rant is finding trans to gear up and finish harder survival maps. my rant is much the same tho. i can finish aquanos or sky city with hardcore and mixed mode both on, all the way to wave 30. in my last 10 runs with FOUR summoners (so all armor drops) i have received 1 supreme armor and 1 ultimate armor. and those 2 pieces were BOTH *worse* than trans gear. ive literally seen mythicals better than them.

so...yea im right there with ya. about 3 hours per run for me, so 30 hours of play and i got literally zero good armor drops. literally...zero. and i dont just mean good for me, i mean good for anybody lol. the 1 sup and 1 ult i got were both mythical statted xD. what a joke

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