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Rant over players complaints......


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I am not trying to sound offensive in any way, im just voicing my opinions over things that have been bugging me enormously on the forums, so dont give me flame, just disagree.

The issues that have constantly made me worked up are people constant complaints and argues revolved around progression, and loot farming.

For starters, recently in a few threads people keep complaining that 'progressing' past 1.5-2k stats is too difficult, IT SHOULD BE. People keep forgeting that late game nightmare is exactly that, LATE game. It should be difficult and it should require work. Nightmare is the endgame content, dont walk into the game expecting to reach the end of the game instantly.

I completely agree agree that the true endgame farming maps, are completely broken lootwise, where upgrades are soo uncommon its stupid, but thats with getting perfect trans sups ults etc. The progression through most other parts of the game are much more simple than people make it out to be, its true that some mobs were completely broken when they first came out (:sharken:, OMG), but after they had been properly balanced out it becomes how it should be, difficult.

Progression is less about stats than people realise, and so if makes me soo mad when people keep shooting down high stats players on the forums, saying **** like (try that with under 2k stats). Believe it or not we were all low-stats at some point, so how did we progress, it wasnt all through hacks and players shops.

For those of you breaking into nightmare, i do feel for you a bit, however i say to u, breaking into nightmare isnt as hard as it seems, u just need to put in time and effort, getting chars up to lvl 74, playing insane Challenges and surv, and getting good strategies to break into NM.

I am kinda sick hearing complaints about progressing when people dont bother putting in any effort and expect results. Getting 3k+ stats is meant to be difficult, kings game is a perfect example, when it originally came out it was way too easy for the rewards. Now though, since its been made super-hard people need to view it differently, and should go back tot the maps that are MEANT to be easy, Go back to deeper well, or magus, or alch labs, or servants. There are other maps out there than high-end farming maps (shards 4+), go play them.

This is my rant, please tell me whether u guys agree to any of this or am i just an idiot, who knows nothing because i have higher stats than you.

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The only thing I will say is that 1.5-2k stats is not "LATE game" like you said (about the stats to do cliffs ISV30 or karathiki ISV15, not NM). It's reaching 3k-4k. I think it should be easier for players to go from godly to 1k stats then 2k stats. Reaching 3k and 4k should be hard (I'm currently trying to get from 3k to 4k myself).

All in all, same page, but I disagree with your assessment of 1.5-2k stats.

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I am kinda sick hearing complaints about progressing when people dont bother putting in any effort and expect results. Getting 3k+ stats is meant to be difficult, kings game is a perfect example, when it originally came out it was way too easy for the rewards. Now though, since its been made super-hard people need to view it differently, and should go back tot the maps that are MEANT to be easy, Go back to deeper well, or magus, or alch labs, or servants. There are other maps out there than high-end farming maps (shards 4+), go play them.

This is my rant, please tell me whether u guys agree to any of this or am i just an idiot, who knows nothing because i have higher stats than you.

Deeper Well, Alch lab, etc don't give me any upgrades at all. Misty and Aqua might give me one every 3-5 runs. Since one run takes 2-3 hours, it's not a fun way to spend an entire day.

It took me less than 50 hours to beat the campaign on insane after buying the game, and after another 250+ hours, I'm still noweher near beating sky city on nm. I wouldn't exactly say I haven't put any effort in.

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The trouble is, particularly with King's Game, is that Tsang said himself that it was meant to help people get into High End Nightmare Content and not just become another wall. What happened? They buffed it immensely (even after that patch) and became a Wall which you need 2.5-3k stats just to even stand a chance at it. Furthermore, the problem with the easier maps, is that the drops are utter garbage. Over the course of time, the maps have become harder thanks to the new monsters that were added, yet the loot has not been improved in any way, shape, or form. Add to this the problem with stats constantly rolled back into negatives, and negative stats being a lot more common, that even when you find said gear the chances are it falls at one or two hurdles. Progression wasn't easy at the beginning of shards, because Nightmare Progression made absolutely no sense, and now it makes even less sense because the loot has not been improved at all and yet the game continued to get harder and more shards maps were released.

Challenges aren't exactly much better either. Most of the weapons from challenges scale terribly, and this was addressed by having Trans, Supreme and Ultimate weapons scale higher in terms of Damage, but these come from the High End map which command high stat totals in order to complete. Also, most of the Challenges don't even allow for items to be higher than Mythical, because Trendy thought it would imbalance the game. The perfect example of this lies within the Assault Map Packs. Also, getting decent Armour in Challenges is next to impossible, even in the highest end Challenges such as Boss Rush.

So what exactly are the players meant to do to get geared up now? That is the ultimate question here, and the answer seems to be shrouded in bad game design and poor decision making from the Trendy development team. The community do their best to listen to the player base, and translate this to the rest of the team, but nothing seems to be going through. If they did, progression would be vastly improved, loot would stop rolling back, and maybe JUST MAYBE there would also be a point where DLC characters are considered handy extras and not a requirement just to get by.

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I fundamentally disagree with your point about progression being less about stats. It's entirely based on stats. A good build is not going to save you from 50 mil hp ogre meat shields and copters that will blow your defenses to kingdom come while sharken move your walls (yep your gas trap ran its course while the harpoon was shooting the ogre for 6 years).

That said, I soloed my way to nearly 3k (about 2.5k and still some upgrading to do) and it was simply a grind. Survival is not fun. I get it, it's supposed to be work. Those who put in the work should be proud. However, people complaining are those who want the game to throw them a bone every once in awhile and make it feel like they are progressing. 0-3 ish upgrades per 30 waves of survival multiplied by the number of upgrades needed to reach 2k is asking a lot.

I think people have every right to be upset.

Edit: people posted while I was meticulously editing my own post. I absolutely agree that levels should be adjusted so that they can be completed without DLC characters. Asking people to work for reward is legit (to a point); requiring them to purchase DLC in order to progress is borderline villain.

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Kings game is a joke, as it originally started and what it turned into. And i do agree that loot quality on maps is lower than it should be, but there is almost always a progression path. you just have to find it.

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Sir latency, i actually mentioned in my original post that end-game advancement is stupidly broken, its the mid to low lvl nightmare complainers that annoy me

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Sir latency, i actually mentioned in my original post that end-game advancement is stupidly broken, its the mid to low lvl nightmare complainers that annoy me


It's the same show, just a different set of hurdles. The reward for time spent is still just as horrendous. How much work can people be expected to do without wanting to vent?

Farming Mistymire survival 80 times is just as annoying as farming Throne Room 80 times.

I'll also add that *most* of the high stat characters progressed before copters, which are by far the worst addition to the game. Start from scratch and try breaking into NM now and see if you don't have a few complaints. I know for a fact that it can be done, but see if the process doesn't raise your blood pressure a bit.

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The difference is, there is a better place to farm from throne room, and misty also, if u can easily beat throne room, then why dont u do misty, if u can do misty than why not do aqua. If u can do aqua, then try Sky city or Talay(with friends).

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Sir latency, i actually mentioned in my original post that end-game advancement is stupidly broken, its the mid to low lvl nightmare complainers that annoy me

Not everyone enjoys mindless grinding, but most people do still want to complete the game. It's a bit of a bind, since to complete the game you need the high end gear from hours and hours of farming levels which happen to require higher end gear than you have. Of course, occasionally, one might get lucky and pick up an upgrade from a level where they aren't being carried or haven't spent 100+ hours on, but that's rare enough to disregard.

Futhermore the bosses on the shards maps(at least on nm) require a very high DPS hero or pet. These pets/weapons/gear are usually found on maps the player hasn't completed(and can't complete due to the boss) or in player shops or several hundred mill.

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The problem is pretty straightforward, you got it pretty much right by saying that good loot drops are too rare on later maps, but I will say that that problem has arisen because of the addition of the shards enemies.

While you can debate to what extent each shards enemies has increased the difficulty of the game they all have to some extent, so older maps on NM have become harder with no loot quality boost. This means that while in most cases you can still find upgrades with the level of stats needed to beat stages on NM, you have been increasingly forced to rely on grinding levels over and over again looking for the top end drops from the stage to improve on the stats you had beforehand.

Overall I would say that only shards enemy that has really screwed up the progression is the Copters. Spiders need a little DPS cover behind lines to take them out, Djinn and Sharken mostly attack from the front and usually get targetting priority so again didn't boost the difficulty much and the release of the EV and Summoner helped offset the difficulty boost from them. Goblin Copters though have introduced several changes that have caused significant problems on a lot of stages. The main problem is whole concept of dropping stronger versions of the ogre in positions where they can attack your defenses from previously safe directions and unlike spiders they need significant DPS to bring down, this splits your firepower and increses the stat requirements for sucess by more than any previous addition.

One thing I did think to myself when playing the release version of The Kings Game was that this map would be pretty much the perfect difficulty vs reward for anyone that hasn't bought any extra characters, but unfortunatley both the EV and Summoner have provided significant boost the the strength of builds and there is a concern for keeping maps a challenge when they are used at the expense of anyone that doesn't want to have to buy or use them.

I still think the solution is pretty much what you suggested though, skew the distibution of loot drops towards the higher end for each stage and fix some of the problems that have developed with stat rollovers and big negative becoming common and the stages remain challenging while not frustrating people that want to progress to the later content.

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Rewards should be given to help come across the next hurdle....DD fails miserably at that. We did deeper wells nm survival the other day for a laugh(don't ask), the reward was a giraffe worth 53 mana.

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Kings game is a joke, as it originally started and what it turned into. And i do agree that loot quality on maps is lower than it should be, but there is almost always a progression path. you just have to find it.


Love the 'almost'. And if you say there is a progression path then please outline it. And no, endlessly doing the first wave of MQ/ES and then getting wiped on the second wave to try to get into NM is not a propper progression path.

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U think that was bad, first time completing NMHC aqua wave 30 i got a 53 mana girrafe. And yes its true that progression is broken, the point im trying to make is that the points that are broken are not usually what people complain about. And that most people that do complain do it without actual knowledge.

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Riyshun, have u tried insane survival or challenges? Early NM survival is totally possible with under 400-500 stats. (low waves abviously)

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im stuck in the 1.5k - 2.5k area. only 2.5k is damage, but normally my AoE / range (Blue) stat is below 600 in this case.

Its just the grinds getting to highers stats make it annoying. Theres nothing else for you in those areas besides being way too prepared for newer maps.

I dont have any sup or ult armour. Most of the upgrades i see tend to be weapons. Only a piece or 2 is trans with 150+ upgrades. I do have 97 up myths but the stats tend to be 200 in each tower stat.

I do agree with OP that stats dont really matter. I mean, look at how copters and sharken work. Copters are weak against huntresses because they can shoot a single bullet projectile and kill it fast. This goes for sharks too. It doesnt matter about stats on killing these. It depends on positioning your towers and you quickly going to counter one. I dont take this game as a total AFK game. I still do stuff during runs on aqua, normally mid-wave.

Most of the actual players in the high ranks either go assistance from a friend. Or have played pre-Djinn.

Stats really isnt a problem. You just have to react fast to certain situations. (I know there are some of you out there. If the game is hitting an average framerate below 15 you wont be able to do much. i understand your stuff doesnt register and things just tend to get to laggy to the point you cannot even react to whats going on everywhere. Theres not a solution unless you upgrade.)

The only thing that keeps me playing are friends who got dungeon defenders recently from SS2012 or some other way. Som of my old friends still play just not as often. There really isnt anything great to do in DD once you get all the achievements. If ou like taking the scoreboard thats really it. Its fun to play with friends and all, but getting that gear is not really worth some of our times.

1.5k - 2.5k is good enough for me. It would be nice to see some better gear once in awhile. After so many Aqua NM HC MM runs it doesnt feel like a fun game because of what i got out of all them. Just mana which i never use Nor can i save it all. A generate token would be nice when in game.



Rewards especially giraffes tend to be bad and theyre not really a great pet. Trans pets are better specially tavern trans.

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I like it how everyone assumed that because King's was "raining" ultimates it was raining end game gear, apparently, any item carrying the name ultimate is now end game gear.


These people obviously never played it with summoners, when it came to armor and actual end game gear, the map was no different from any other map, the RNG might have awarded awesome pieces to some, that doesn't mean they were going to fly to 4k stats in less than a week like some were stating.

People were still gonna need to farm for hundreds of hours before they could attempt the end game content, what happened was that eventually accessing such content became an actual option for everyone and that happened to be a problem for some.

Isn't there a thread for King's comments already?? It's incredible the amount of **** that blew off with this map.

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The problems with king's game wasnt the loot quality, it was the fact that the loot quality was great for a map as easy as deeper well. It just made every other map completely pointless (except for unique rewards).

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The problems with king's game wasnt the loot quality, it was the fact that the loot quality was great for a map as easy as deeper well. It just made every other map completely pointless (except for unique rewards).


Not to be offensive but, ultimate sicariuses are not exactly what you can call great quality loot.

Also, it didn't made every other map completely pointless, *some just felt that way*, unless anyone is a no personality basement freak that needs to be farming sky all day long to feel l33t, there is also the option to do stuff because you want/like to do stuff, not because it's fashion.

I agree with you in one point though, it's kinda annoying to see people complaining about the difficulty, specially when they imagine that people had it easy before the copters, and it was easier before the sharken, and it was easier before the djinn and etc...

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The problems with king's game wasnt the loot quality, it was the fact that the loot quality was great for a map as easy as deeper well. It just made every other map completely pointless (except for unique rewards).


To be perfectly honest, I think that two ways could have fixed the map without needing to tweak the difficulty, either through reducing the loot quality but not to the point where it's worthless or by forgetting about loot for the most part and just make it an EXP Map. I think either of those two things would have been perfect, since the former would allow for loot that can actually be used to progress unlike other maps, whilst the latter would at least make it less of a hassle to get to the maximum level (because lets face it, there's literally no reason for the EXP Curve to be as high as it is, especially when you aren't really gaining any new abilities or learning anything new, it's just the loot you can use).

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Haven't done survival on King's Game at all, only played the campaign, but the armour drops weren't much better than what I already had on my level 77 squire, who was equipped mostly from Endless Spires NMHC runs. I think I found only one improvement, perhaps two, on my gear, and that only put me in the 500-700 stat range. The weapon drops seemed a fair bit more generous, but again, nothing that really stood out as end game. I did manage to get an Ultimate Pawn Shot reward when I played with the Jester, and it seems like its stats are pretty good, >10k damage to start. Too bad I won't be able to use it for a long *** time.

The only thing about King's Game that I can see being a valid argument was that it was a bit too easy. I can barely beat the demon lord on Alchemical Labratory or Endless Spires, but this map I could do with out much difficulty with just a Squire and an EV.

It also gives a pretty ridiculous amount of mana, I got ~220 million on each of my campaign runs.

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