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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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I'm disappointed in how they changed the map now. Can't watch both crystals by myself on the first wave and can't find another person who can kill weak *** ogres.

I enjoyed having a map that I didn't have to be super try hard and keep running around. I could do other things while playing DD. It was nice.

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I wouldn't call this "breaking into NM" map anymore... made it to 12/14.. but just barely.

4 ogres on the first wave, 100 seconds to build. first wave isn't a huge problem if you have a partner. Second wave is 10 ogres and choppers, and now only 50 seconds to finish up your build.
I don't see how you beat this map with less than 2k stats anymore.

12/14 had 10mil hp ogres, and 16mil HP chopper ogres.

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We don't need no education
we don't need no thought control
no dark sarcasm in the class room
teacher leave them kids alone

Hey teacher leave them kids alone
all in all it's just another brick in the wall
all in all you're just another brick in the wall

Hey teacher leave us kids alone
all in all you're just another brick in the wall
all in all you're just another brick in the wall

We don't need no education
we don't need no thought control
no dark sarcasm in the classroom
teachers leave them kids alone

Hey teacher leave us kids alone
all in all you're just another brick in the wall
all in all you're just another brick in the wall

Wrong do it again wrong do it again
if you don't eat your meet you can't have any pudding
how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat
you yes you behind the bikesheds stand still lady

Sorry for that just having it in my head the whole time XD

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Tried it, failed again and again on the first wave. Not enough mana or time to build a decent defense to get it done without high stats.

ah well I called that it would be a wall and unfortunately I got what I called it...

some people like me find it fun, which is why we put 1k+ hours into the game. This thinking is hipocritical, if you play to have fun and don't care/want to spend the time neccesary to get to end-game content, why are you complaining when you can't cheese through what we have spent thousands of hours doing. if its the map you find fun play on medium if you don't care.


Oh give me a break we aren't asking to get your drops. We are asking to be able to play every map. I give a hoot if I get the best drops, I just do not want to be flushed into 1 map that I have to do over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again before I can move on to the next map and do this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Not to much to ask now is it? I don't mind that this would have been brought back into the fold if the progression had been fixed propperly beforehand. Now it is again the same bloody wall, the same wall that WAS NOT THERE PRECOPTERS. I know because I was working my way up in the game and I saw and it was fun. The only wall that there was however was the one between insane and start nightmare and that still required a tiny bit of rebalancing and I wouldn't have minded at all


there's a reason why people say "casual" and "hardcore". if you want to be a hardcore dd player, don't play casually and complain when you can't compete with us.


casual and hardcore has nothing to do with the rewards you obtain, just with the amount of time you spend on it and how well you know the game. What you are actually talking about in here is elitist.


and i commend some players who have careers and familys to tend to. I myself am in college. a gamer is a gamer is a gamer, don't blame us because you have different priorities/life situations.


So your priority is to work in a game instead of working in your studies? I seriously hope you aren't studying to be a doctor...

PS: not that I didn't play games during my time as a student (but I only got 3 degrees), but there is no reason whatsoever why your type of gameplay should impede someone else from having fun. If you are having fun going after that cheese, then go right ahead. If your only goal in life is to get that special drop and spend 200000000 hours on it, then by all means go ahead. But you had fun obtaining it. So no harm done. If the only reason is however having fun because someone else can not do it but you can because you spend 2000000 hours on it then by golly why should it just not have taken 3000000000000000 hours you would have felt even better...

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broken down door... fixed with glue (no hinges...)
the rewards better be ALOT better than previously, because i cant comprehend how annoyed someone would be to go through all that and only get a 100^ weapon.
- by alot better... i mean... like... a whole new tier.

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This ^^
have to say trendy did it again.
These damn top end ppl should not be listen too.
They have the best gear of course its going to be easy for them.

Great back to a brick wall and no fun gg Trendy.


This isn't the fault of the Top-End people. This is just Trendy not knowing how to balance their own game (as usual). I would say I am one of those guys who currently sit at the important stats at 2.5k or more. I tried this map again recently and got annihilated. I am going to outline the problems one by one:

The Build Time, with the difficulty as it currently is, is too damn low. You literally only barely enough time to get Mana build stuff you need with one builder before the first wave starts. So forget mix and matching stuff at the beginning. Really, from what i've played, the only viable way to actually stand half a chance is to use the Summoner. Since Minions can make useful walls as well as do some decent damage to keep things as controlled as possible. However, also bear in mind, that you won't get a chance to switch to a DPS Character either after building everything. I literally even tried deliberately dying, but that didn't work either, since it doesn't place you near the Forge nor give you enough time left over to switch.

Then there is the matter of the 3 Million HP Ogres on the first wave (Really Trendy? THIS is your idea of a "slight" buff to difficulty? To double and nearly triple the amount of HP the Ogres have and ramp up their damage even more so?) come along and basically give you the goatse experience. I even tried using the Spiders, as they recently now affect Ogres, but I didn't actually notice any difference and furthermore they cost double the Mana of an Archer so you miss out on more damage. Basically meaning the Djinns then just walk all over you and open you up.

And then, even if you make it to the next wave, you only get less and less time to build everything. maybe you can get the EV Beams and Harpoons for Anti-Air up the next wave, and then the Monk Auras to finish everything off on the wave after that. But that's three waves you're not only struggling and racing the clock to build, but also being stuck on said builders and not on a DPS character that can actually help out.

Some will say that Duo/Trio/Team will do better, and they could well be right, I managed to scrape by with a Team of three before a freak disconnect happened during Wave 12. But, I gotta say, Tsang clearly was lying. Either that or something went horrible wrong when recoding (or the Beta Testers proved their old notoriety for not doing much in the way of testing). I would say Sky City is way easier than this map. Aquanos, is way easier than this map. Therefore I can also conclude that Tsangs statement of being a "Way to get into and prepared for later Nightmare Content" is also false.

So, anyone wish to refute this? BTW just for reference I was playing with Andy (who also just posted) and [GMG] Chris.

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I am going to try this again later. As someone with 3k stats, why couldn't they just let this map be? There is no more new DD content coming, no more new shards maps to gear up for or anything. Why couldn't they just let us have something fun at the end of it all? The people who wanted it to be more difficult are probably going to do 1 or 2 survival runs before moving onto other things anyways. The people with the low stats who aren't getting anywhere will likely just quit the game in frustration.

This game is not an MMORPG. It's not supposed to last forever. There is nothing wrong with a map like this existing.

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I am going to try this again later. As someone with 3k stats, why couldn't they just let this map be? There is no more new DD content coming, no more new shards maps to gear up for or anything. Why couldn't they just let us have something fun at the end of it all? The people who wanted it to be more difficult are probably going to do 1 or 2 survival runs before moving onto other things anyways. The people with the low stats who aren't getting anywhere will likely just quit the game in frustration.

This game is not an MMORPG. It's not supposed to last forever. There is nothing wrong with a map like this existing.


I can agree to this, but I also feel that there must also be a sense of balance, to ensure proper progression. But, lets face it, progression in this game is pretty damn terrible anyway. The idea of going to Nightmare involves grinding your face against the first wave of Endless Spires, until you get some gear, then basically steamroll it once you do to get the Mana to upgrade. Then, what would be possible previously, do King's Game until you get the 2k or so gear to do the Shards Content. Through doing this you ignore what is basically 80% or more of the content of this game. Progression shouldn't work like that. There needs to be curves that lead you into each challenge, not simply chewing your way through practical verticals until you eventually work your way through it. There needs to be a feeling of, not only that you are progressing smoothly, but also that each new challenge rewards you appropriately to take on the next challenge without the need to grind excessively.

The previous problem with the map, was that the reward wasn't appropriate, and that it affected progression in very much the opposite way that progression had been previously (As in a lot of the stuff ends up getting skipped rather than previously having to grind the same map over and over just to get your foot in the door). Now, it's a case of this map is placed at a level of progression which in my opinion would come after Sky City, rather than before which is what Tsang suggested the adjustments would do for the map.

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yeh.. it looked like chance to bring my friends back to dundef.. without them im stuck in soloable maps /pugs never worked well for me/ ..
Tried it today again and Volkamar's post exactly summarize my experience..

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Before this Kings Game came out I had to grind out Magus to be able to get mana to buy the gear I needed from player shops. I am like near 400 hours played time and I only have one char above around 1.5k stats. Then Kings Game came out and it was like a gift from god. A map I could finally get decent gear myself and be able to attempt Aqua then maybe Skycity. I was having fun doing it. I will admit it was a bit too easy but still having to keep and eye, I couldn't AFK it yet. Then they buffed it and I cant survive the first wave on any mode I try on NM. If they do not lower the difficulty again, I'm done. I just cant anymore.

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We want players who have had trouble clearing some of the previous maps (especially the shards maps) a chance to get that extra push in gear to put them over the hill.

In the coming patch we will be increasing the enemy difficulty of the map, but for those having trouble on Nightmare as is, this should not be another brick wall.


No offense, but you failed. Try again, please. Not enough DU provided on the map for lower geared players given the number of areas you need to defend (even with the tile bonus). The only people that this won't be a "brick wall" for are those who already doing more difficult maps that were not the intended audience for this map (given your previous comments).

I completed it post-buff with some difficulty on NMHC survival, but I vastly outgear what you claim the intended target audience for the map was supposed to be. For those people struggling in Nightmare (those who you claim this map was supposed to be helping) I truly feel sorry. The only ones that will be regularly completing it are those who already outgear it and provoked this knee-jerk reaction in the first place. The rich get richer, as it were.

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I have to agree with Volkamar, the patch just came through for me and I got roflstomped on wave 1. Easier than the Shards maps? HAHAHA. This is now on par with Sky NM and that's just the campaign. I'm not even going to try nmhc survival.

Back to grinding mana in throne room survival I guess.

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I can agree to this, but I also feel that there must also be a sense of balance, to ensure proper progression. But, lets face it, progression in this game is pretty damn terrible anyway. The idea of going to Nightmare involves grinding your face against the first wave of Endless Spires, until you get some gear, then basically steamroll it once you do to get the Mana to upgrade. Then, what would be possible previously, do King's Game until you get the 2k or so gear to do the Shards Content. Through doing this you ignore what is basically 80% or more of the content of this game. Progression shouldn't work like that. There needs to be curves that lead you into each challenge, not simply chewing your way through practical verticals until you eventually work your way through it. There needs to be a feeling of, not only that you are progressing smoothly, but also that each new challenge rewards you appropriately to take on the next challenge without the need to grind excessively.

The previous problem with the map, was that the reward wasn't appropriate, and that it affected progression in very much the opposite way that progression had been previously (As in a lot of the stuff ends up getting skipped rather than previously having to grind the same map over and over just to get your foot in the door). Now, it's a case of this map is placed at a level of progression which in my opinion would come after Sky City, rather than before which is what Tsang suggested the adjustments would do for the map.


I can agree that it would be better if the progression would be ironed out better. But if I have to choose between how it was before and how it is now... I would choose how it was before. Because at least you are getting somewhere and can work your way up from there.

Now it is just wal hitting the WALL and I mentioned it already 3 times, and even if trendy is trying to do their best, they contineously mess up in the EXACT SAME BLOODY WAY. This is not making me go and spend money on any new projects of trendynet. So I better hope that Tsang sold his shares of the company and is going to live off that bundle of cash :d because based on my experience during the beta and the out of beta of eternian shards i'm not going to spend 1 more dime on any of trendies products. And since the first time I played DD, I have spend more on this game then I have spend on many other AAA games.

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[QUOTE]Not to much to ask now is it? I don't mind that this would have been brought back into the fold if the progression had been fixed propperly beforehand. Now it is again the same bloody wall, the same wall that WAS NOT THERE PRECOPTERS. I know because I was working my way up in the game and I saw and it was fun. The only wall that there was however was the one between insane and start nightmare and that still required a tiny bit of rebalancing and I wouldn't have minded at all[/QUOTE]

If your problem is copters, there is really an easy counter. Just use ensnare auras. Never had problems with copters while playing this game.

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Definitely way way harder, at least on survival. And I can imagine so on campaign but haven't done it again yet. About 2500-3k in tower attack, 1500-2000 in other stats, have all the classes.

Map seems simple but the fact that mobs come from 3-4 directions on multiple routes with no obvious chokes that protect the crystal makes it very challenging. Here's some attempts starting at wave 13.

First attempt: I built too close behind the crystal and ogres would catch it in their swing radius, ok easily fixed. Moved my stuff back.

Next attempt: Built too far away, crystal protection became an issue to certain mob types (couldn't tell what was hitting it), eventually went down to unknown non-ogre assailants. I assume archers or something lame, need to move auras/gasses further out.

Last attempt: Hit the +10DU buff early, got my harps + summoner units a perfect distance behind the crystal, put a triangle of reflects around both crystals and a box |_| around the harps and summoner units behind the crystal. Stuff was completely sturdy and could probably handle well into wave 25+, however stupid orcs and other things somehow reached the crystal randomly starting around w18 and would get a swing on it. Very unfortunate and surprising since there were 2 3-star gas traps on either side, 100k dps elec aura, and a 100k dps proximity mine trap. Those things musta been tanks! Not sure how to draw aggro away from the crystal from a safe distance while leaving it open, but if you attempt to protect it from separate sides it'll either get torn up by sharks or eaten alive by assassins and ogres.

Little tweaking I could probably make it back up to 25, but this is quite challenging even with my stats. Feel bad for the people of lower quality gear, you probably need 1500+ at least to beat campaign now or make it to wave 15.

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If your problem is copters, there is really an easy counter. Just use ensnare auras. Never had problems with copters while playing this game.


Don't have time or the mana to switch my characters or to get all the defenses down that I would love to get down. Besides the problem is the copters and the ogres that they drop. My defenses just can't take the strain of it all so early on...

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Just played it with a guy with 3k builder stats, we went down on wave 20. So much for fun.

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Out of curiosity, has anyone with lowerish tower stats (like the 800-1000 range) tried Insane for Kings Game yet with the new changes? Did the mob scaling change at all there too? I am curious if the map is going to be a cakewalk with no challenge / fun / loot upgrades on Insane, but then if you try and go to Nightmare you get all the issues people are listing here.

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Out of curiosity, has anyone with lowerish tower stats (like the 800-1000 range) tried Insane for Kings Game yet with the new changes? Did the mob scaling change at all there too? I am curious if the map is going to be a cakewalk with no challenge / fun / loot upgrades on Insane, but then if you try and go to Nightmare you get all the issues people are listing here.


When did these changes come in effect?

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i agree for nightmare it realy is too easy im just over 900 to all stats and i beat wave 30 NMHC

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Just played it with a guy with 3k builder stats, we went down on wave 20. So much for fun.


Is that after the Change ? or befor

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The part I find amazing is that people can't kill 4 mill hp ogres. I just wish to find one person who can stand by a crystal and kill low hp ogres. Is that so much to ask for?

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Out of curiosity, has anyone with lowerish tower stats (like the 800-1000 range) tried Insane for Kings Game yet with the new changes? Did the mob scaling change at all there too? I am curious if the map is going to be a cakewalk with no challenge / fun / loot upgrades on Insane, but then if you try and go to Nightmare you get all the issues people are listing here.

Tried it now. It's harder than it was. Before the ogres didn't even damage my towers on wave 1(on NM), now my harps take some damage from poison balls and the ogres nearly get close enough to hit them(on insane).

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