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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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As it was pointed out above, this is a PvE game. We seem to constantly forget that. This game is not about being the best at it. The point is to try to make the experience fun for yourself.

I have played this map one time through on campaign and I thought the experience was great. This reduces the grind that most games send the players through. Instead of spending hours upon hours on getting from one level to the next, this can get the player more involved in the fun parts of the game because they will have more time for it.
I think the heavily limited DU and of course MU puts a bit of challenge in it. I found that the build we used was stretched very thin in some places and we had to go without some physical beams that I would have prefered to use.

Overall, I found the map to be kind of easy as many have said. It was easy because I built with a 3k damage and 2k rate apprentice(love those higher end magic missiles) and the summer my friend used had similar stats.(I believe only 2.5k damage) it took us many hours to get to the point that we could have those stats. Even with those stats we still struggle through the shards maps. I wouldn't dare try this map with anything lower than 2k damage and 1.5k rate with some strong buffs. To the players that do use lower stats, I salute your effort.
The rewards I suppose are a bit unbalanced. (The huntress weapon scales so high in damage it's unbelievable.) But even with those rewards, it's not going to be easy to do the shards maps and of course the wonderful CD.

The problem in this situation is not the map. The loot drops still rely on the players knowledge to pick up what is good for him/her. The problem here is the community. The players who own all the mana, cubes, mega chickens, etc. seem to be scared to have more players like them playing alongside them. There is nothing wrong with this and I think that this map actually might be able to bridge the gap between the "elite" and the normal players. (If the map stays the same of course) With these proposed changes, it will only further separate the people who enjoy playing because they have good gear and the people who play for fun in general.

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I don't why it matters so much that the stage is easy. It doesn't hurt anyone, it only helps them out. People keep saying, Oh it removes the bridge of progression! What are you afraid it'll break the broken progression of the game? Sorry but you can't break something that is already broken. In fact the ease of this stage fixes the progression more than anything. Everyone elses stats make no difference to anyone. It is a PvE game, in which case it will not affect your gameplay if everyone is running around with characters at God status. In fact I would be overjoyed if I had 3k-4k stats, because that would mean I would probably already have the rest of the achievements in this game, which is currently the only reason I am still playing DD. The game isn't fun anymore. I actually had a lot of fun playing this stage, which would be the first time in months since I've had fun playing DD. I hadn't played DD in like a month, the only reason I really picked it back up was the Jester. Sure the map is super easy, and gives really awesome loot, but I feel like it makes up for it with how long it takes to beat the stage. Honestly I got my Jester up to aroudn 1.5k stats, and used nothing but presents for towers, and beat it on nmhc without breaking a sweat. And my friend got an ult weapon out of it, my weapon kinda sucked, but the squire guardian I got with it was amazing for tower build, and I found a sup sword on the ground after the last wave which will make my first and only sup equip I have. Perhaps the game should be pretty easy like this, but just give the ability to add modifiers(Kinda like Gemcraft Labyrinth did) to make the game harder for the people that want more difficulty, and then give multipliers to loot and exp based on them, personally I think that would be a great idea, but it might be a little late for the addition of such a thing (maybe a feature for DD2?).

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So you can get a good seahorse. So you can complete all of the content and do Crystal Dimension. So you can get all the other cool stuff that's generally inferior to what's to be found on this map but is not available on this map.


Seahorse is useful, sure. So you farm the hell out of this one map, collect a good seahorse... maybe another pet or two that you want. And you're pretty much done. Crystalline Dimension? Sure, beat it once. But if you're playing a Huntress/Ranger/EV, then there's no reason to go back, because Pawnshot is much better than the CD Gun.

That's the problem I have with this. Loot games are, in my opinion, designed around the concept of farming one area for a bit, moving to the next, climbing through the difficulty. Progression is broken when it's too hard to move on to the next area, or when there's no need to move on. This is perfectly handled up to Insane, with good ways to progress from Normal to Insane, with Hard mode bridging the gap partially, and a variety of challenges of different difficulty levels. This is horribly broken at Nightmare.

If you don't agree this is how the game should function, then let's just agree to disagree, because there's no point to this conversation - I've played dozens of games in this genre, and this is how I expect such games to work. If that's not what you expect or want from the game, well, we've both made our point fairly clear to Trendy by now, so it's in their hands...

I don't why it matters so much that the stage is easy. It doesn't hurt anyone, it only helps them out. People keep saying, Oh it removes the bridge of progression! What are you afraid it'll break the broken progression of the game? Sorry but you can't break something that is already broken. In fact the ease of this stage fixes the progression more than anything. Everyone elses stats make no difference to anyone. It is a PvE game, in which case it will not affect your gameplay if everyone is running around with characters at God status. In fact I would be overjoyed if I had 3k-4k stats, because that would mean I would probably already have the rest of the achievements in this game, which is currently the only reason I am still playing DD. The game isn't fun anymore. I actually had a lot of fun playing this stage, which would be the first time in months since I've had fun playing DD. I hadn't played DD in like a month, the only reason I really picked it back up was the Jester. Sure the map is super easy, and gives really awesome loot, but I feel like it makes up for it with how long it takes to beat the stage. Honestly I got my Jester up to aroudn 1.5k stats, and used nothing but presents for towers, and beat it on nmhc without breaking a sweat. And my friend got an ult weapon out of it, my weapon kinda sucked, but the squire guardian I got with it was amazing for tower build, and I found a sup sword on the ground after the last wave which will make my first and only sup equip I have. Perhaps the game should be pretty easy like this, but just give the ability to add modifiers(Kinda like Gemcraft Labyrinth did) to make the game harder for the people that want more difficulty, and then give multipliers to loot and exp based on them, personally I think that would be a great idea, but it might be a little late for the addition of such a thing (maybe a feature for DD2?).


So, after a car crash on the golden gate bridge, let's go ahead and drop a nuke on it. Because it's broken a little bit, obviously you can't break it more by nuking it right?

Trendy has made multiple attempts to fix progression and to fix other issues with this game. The fact that Endless Spires Survival now throws 3K monsters at you instead of 16K is a testament to this fact. Similarly, the fact that Deeper Wells is now easier than Endless Spires proves Trendy DOES care about progression.

So yes, it matters that they're breaking progression with this map.

It has nothing to do with how other players play this game. It has to do with what the game holds for me personally. For myself, and a lot of players, games like this are about finding the best way to collect loot, and farming your way to the nice gear that you want, one step at a time. Having an amazing, easy source of loot destroys that gaming mentality... and no, you can't skip that, because it takes the fun out of Aqua by giving you the "I could be doing so much better by doing something else" feeling.

You keep assuming we care about what gear you or someone else has... not all of us do, and in fact, many of us probably don't. We care about the game WE'RE playing, because we don't want to have to impose our own rules to make the game fun.

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I would like to start off by apologizing on behalf of the team for several problems that arose with this latest bit of content. If you know who I am, I am blunt and to the point. The balance of The King's Game was not working as intended due to a bug in the maps enemy difficulty scaling.

After reading through the 20 some odd pages of balance discussion, the thoughts of the community mostly reflected that of what we had intended.

The King's Game is meant to be difficult, but not as difficult as the previous maps. Fundamentally, the map is easier even structurally. The rewards are intended to be quite good, but not a joke (no pun intended) to get. We want players who have had trouble clearing some of the previous maps (especially the shards maps) a chance to get that extra push in gear to put them over the hill.

In the coming patch we will be increasing the enemy difficulty of the map, but for those having trouble on Nightmare as is, this should not be another brick wall. The quality of the rewards, although good as is, are being very slightly increased as a response to this mistake.

Again, I apologize for a botched map difficulty, enjoy the rewards while they are easier to get.

If you have any questions, feel free to leave them below and I will answer if possible.

Please keep this thread civil. :summoner:


i honestly thought this was coming. wave 30 ogres having 4.3 million HP could not be intended ;p

anyway, more to the point, because as a player, the only real reference we have as far as difficulty is concerned is pretty much "this mob has this many hitpoints on this wave," what *should* we be expecting as far as this goes?

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I would imagine at least 4-8 times the HP, would put in in line with similar item quality maps? Ogres on wave 30 having less then the ogres on wave 2.. insane... palantir is a bit off - lol.

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The map needs worse rewards. The drops are alright, they aren't great, but the rewards for beating it are way to good, even if you make it harder. The weapons it gives are already BETTER than the ones for Sky City, which is a thousand times harder, wtf? If you make them better why would anyone ever play Sky?

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I don't get it. People complain about not being able to get awesome gear. They make a map that helps players that have problems getting better gear and people complain about it still!

If you want bad gear, go play Diablo 3 :)

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I always presumed people played because something was fun or because they wanted a change.

I don't understand why there always needs to be a carrot dangling in front of someone before people can have a semblance of "fun".

In insane base game I have been playing all the maps based on my fancy of the day. In etherian I have been doing just the latest ones because well you can't get any upgrades from the others and without these upgrades you can't do the next map. Honestly what is so wrong with giving every map similar rewards. If then one map is a bit harder then the other so be it... and i'll do it when I fancy an experience that is a bit harder.

While now I haven't bothered with talay or moraggo, not because of the difficulty but because well I don't have sufficient time to set up all the stuff I need to be able to successfully get past the first wave... due to the delays of switching to my different building characters. I wished they would just get rid of the buildingtime like it is in survival... or make it an option that has you know for all I care an effect of reducing the drops with 30%. Whatever... I can once I finish it do survival on my own pace for the rewards anyway...

In any case all the etherian shard maps and the challenges should have received similar item rewards so people could choose the map they would like to do instead of having to do the same map again and again and again and again and again and again before they have a shot at the next.

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The map needs worse rewards. The drops are alright, they aren't great, but the rewards for beating it are way to good, even if you make it harder. The weapons it gives are already BETTER than the ones for Sky City, which is a thousand times harder, wtf? If you make them better why would anyone ever play Sky?


The huntress weapon is. The squire and mage weapons are crap. The monk weapon is good, but still not as good as a monk wrench or stone's throw.

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I don't get it. People complain about not being able to get awesome gear. They make a map that helps players that have problems getting better gear and people complain about it still!

If you want bad gear, go play Diablo 3 :)


I can bet the ones complaining about it are the ones,that control the afk shops,or cannot make any more paypal money or the big ego trip,look what i have and your too skilless to get it.
I don't care if that sound harsh,the point is,it's meant to be a fun game.
that map made it fun.
I just wish all the other maps was like that with the drop rate and not to op.

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No matter what happens there will always be complainers out there. I say keep it as it is. It's such a fun map and I've been playing that map only, ever since the release. I've enjoyed finding new armor and trying to get myself further into survival. If the people with the 2k stats complain, that's their problem. They can do the map easily if they wanted to, they don't have to play it. Surely they alrdy have mana galore anyways from their ark shops too. 'm having fun like I never had in a long time. I actually look forward to doing other, harder survival maps once I can clear this one.

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Most people that complain it is too easy are the ones with 1000-2000 stats who can AFK NMHC maps..
That's wrong. Most of the people who complain have 3k~4k stats who are able to AFK the map on NMHCMM.
Yup, let's take the fun out of this game, that way more people will still play ;)
Fun is subjective. What you may see as fun does NOT apply to everyone else.
No matter what happens there will always be complainers out there. I say keep it as it is. It's such a fun map and I've been playing that map only, ever since the release. I've enjoyed finding new armor and trying to get myself further into survival. If the people with the 2k stats complain, that's their problem. They can do the map easily if they wanted to, they don't have to play it. Surely they alrdy have mana galore anyways from their ark shops too. 'm having fun like I never had in a long time. I actually look forward to doing other, harder survival maps once I can clear this one.
Indeed, they don't HAVE to play it. Sure it's available but hey they can always grind for loot the same way they always have. "wah but other people... etc" This **** has GOT to stop. Why do people care so much about how other people play the game, if they're having fun let them. No, they want to take their candy away because they feel like sharing. Yes because being one of the few people able to farm such gear what are you going to do sell them a single piece of armor for 1 cube? 50 billion? They don't even have that kind of money, and most of them are stuck trying to break into Nightmare because they either don't have the gear or don't have the time. People just need to play the game for fun and stop worrying about everyone else. I personally find this map easy, I have 3k stats so of course it's easy for me. The only thing I need to do is repair my auras after every round.
With the diff increase will xp gained also increase or will it be the same, i hate leveling chars, so far this one is better than re doing city over and over
For the record, you can hit 90 in 8 full runs under the assumption you get around 50mil per run. I always net over 50mil.
Haha so Trendy your solution to help people out is scale the enemies like sky city? Well it's going to be interesting to see how people deal with 60+ million hp ogres, who are already having issues with previous shards map.
People are having trouble breaking into NM(HCMM) shard maps, so they make a map easier to help bridge the gap. High end players complain, so they choose to scale the mobs to Sky City's mob HP. I also think this is quite laughable as players trying to break into that gap won't be able to with all the 60mil HP ogres that will be all over the map because they won't be able to down them all fast enough. I expect to see the map get nerfed after it gets buffed, unless they change their mind and don't go through with it depending on what they feel after going through this thread, or buff it considerably less than mentioned.
I worked hard to get to where I am and I just feel sorry for the people who are struggling and hitting the proverbial wall. The game was fine before Goblin Copters. This must be said. Your idea behind a new enemy in theory was a good one. However when you made the new enemy drop Ogres in immense numbers, well you pretty much limited the variety of class you could use effectively against them. You have nerfed them all too hell and yet the complaints are still coming in, but the reason people are struggling with Nightmare isn't because it's difficult. It's just purely cheap. Not many can combat against several high level ogres, yet alone hundreds of them.
Goblin Copters are honestly the biggest cause for this huge wall to climb into NM for new players, they seriously need to be adjusted for maps that they weren't meant for. If the Goblin Copters dropped Mini-Ogres instead I think that would be a great improvement.
Hell this new buff isn't going to affect me, so bring it on. It's just disappointing to see them finally help the people who were struggling and then crush them shortly after. I rather more people on an even playing field and have some help to progress faster then what we have now. The result would have been a much stronger community.
I like how they tried to bridge the gap in the community, and a decent amount of the higher end players start to complain because they won't be special and be able to hold a monopoly. Example being Pet Rocks, seeing as how Talay Mines is the hardest map in the game. Talay Mines is even harder than CD. That's just my opinion though.
ultiamte: 0.5
supreme: 1.25
good useable trans: 3.5
really really good myth pieces: I didn't keep count, but I estimate between 5 and 8

Sure doesn't seem broken to me.

Those that say supremes and ultimates are dropping like candy... yeah supreme and ultimate weapons that are pieces of crap. I don't care if 4 ultimate and 6 supreme blunderbusses drop per wave. They're pieces of crap.
All my runs that I have done by myself I've used a summoner. I've found like 8 supreme armors which were junk and maybe 6 usable trans (I'm extremely picky) and I have still yet to find any Ultimate armors in my 7 runs I have done so far though this is probably just really bad luck. And yeah all the people saying sups and ults drop like candy are talking about garbage weapons. Honestly just because an item is "Supreme" or "Ultimate" doesn't auto-matically make it good, and weapon drops are pure garbage as opposed to weapon rewards you can find. If you're farming for purely armor which is THE thing to farm sure you'll find tons of trans, a few supremes, and rarely an Ultimate. Are they useful though? Most likely not due to RNG.
Classic, do you know if the current difficulty of King's Game was intended? I find it hard to believe that it was a simple oversight and that no one noticed before it was sent to steam.
It was clearly intended, but once again the high-end players complained about how it was 'too easy' for them and easily AFKable, mind you they are the same people who can already AFK NMHCMM on most maps.

In the end the map is a PERFECT bridge for new players to work their way up without putting in hundreds to thousands of hours into the game just so they can play content. With the way Goblin Copters currently are the hill they need to climb is too steep, as the mobs have NOT been balanced to work with the maps they spawn in aside form Sky City. I think Goblin Copters work quite well in The King's Game because the amount of HP. Their presence isn't completely over whelming when coped with the copters. I'm sure most mid-tier geared players still get 1 shot in the higher waves of NMHCMM on that map, if they can even make it that far. This map wasn't meant to be a challenge for high-end players, and I believe a lot of them feel like it was which I think is wrong.

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my input, the map is indeed easy... with 1.3k tower dmg and all the rest beneath it, this map is still easy, we did get to 27 with those stats for now, and it's getting quite though, tons and tons of enemies

think the enemy count should get reduced but the thoughness of em increased
(bazillion wyverns)

also! on this map, you can not rotate physical walls dunno if that's also the case on other maps, you can only move them, but not rotate

EDIT: and sorry for the weird grammar, but been going on in that map for over 5 hours to get to 30, finally finished it, with good dpser you cna make it with 1.3k tower stats (was 3 players though)

Cipher

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So if the problem is that the loot this map gives is "too good" (which is debatable anyways), why not just make the harder maps of the game give even BETTER loot rather than nerfing this map's loot?

Or are we just so obsessed with making players devote their entire lives to this game that that's out of the question?

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I guess I should be counted among the 'elitist' crowd as I have also complained about the map's difficulty level in another thread while farming the hell out of it at the same time (none of my builders have stats beyond 2k though, with the exception of my trap huntress; my countess comes close, but I haven't used her towers in this map, my main source of dps has been summoner with stats in the 1.5k range).

However, what I complain about is not the fact that it's 'easy,' it's the fact that it's considerably easier than the original campaign maps that precede it (on most of which I have completed wave 25 NMHC survival solo so I should have a say in this matter, and I can assure you each was a bigger challenge with my stats than this one and I definitely couldn't afk any of them past wave 10 like I can in King's Game) while also providing much better loot (all of the campaign maps will rarely drop a trans or two total throughout the waves 21-25 whereas King's Game drops few trans after 15 and several after 20).

Yes, there is a massive gap between godly/low-level myth and the 'endgame' that needs to be fixed and yes, as someone else in this thread has pointed out, King's Game provides a nice progression by actually giving you gear on lower waves that allows you to complete higher waves, but my point is - this shouldn't be the role of just one map that gets randomly thrown in in the end, it's what the entire original campaign should be for!

In fact, I think the loot progression within King's Game (some trans after 15, many trans after 20, some sup and ult after 25) would be an extremely good base to adapt for other maps in the game. The original campaign maps should drop Transcendent items beyond wave 15 with an increasing chance. Starting with few to none in the first chapter (in which mobs should be made weak enough that even players with low-end gear have a chance at them) to a considerable amount in Spires/Summit/Glitter. At that point the player would naturally progress to the Shards maps, which would provide even more and better Transcendent items while also having the additional incentive of waves beyond 25, where Supreme and Ultimate items would drop.

Currently there seems to be hardly a difference in loot or difficulty in survival between various campaign maps and there is little incentive to progress through them in any given order (besides maybe start with maps that do not spawn copters, like I have done).

Another issue is mana. Currently the game suffers from the 'Diablo 3 syndrome,' where what most intermediate players farm is not items, but rather mana that they need to either upgrade their current items or purchase better ones from other players. The latter part of the problem would be solved by increasing trans drop rates like I have suggested, the former by either drastically buffing autosell mana rewards or reducing upgrade costs. Altogether it would fix the issue of stupidly overpriced items in player shops, as players overprice either because they desperately need the mana for upgrades, or want to leech off other players who desperately need the items that they can't farm themselves.

As I see it, the King's Game at present is a bad, temporary solution to fix the progression gaps, but it is a solution nonetheless and many people have come to appreciate it as such in this short time. So maybe it should remain unpatched in its current state until some sort of changes like the ones I suggested have been made to the rest of the game, at which point it could be buffed (though maybe not all the way to Sky City level) to serve as an alternative to Shards for players with mid-tier gear, as Trendy seems to have intended.

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So if the problem is that the loot this map gives is "too good" (which is debatable anyways), why not just make the harder maps of the game give even BETTER loot rather than nerfing this map's loot?

Or are we just so obsessed with making players devote their entire lives to this game that that's out of the question?


They aren't. If you read the Upcoming Patch Notes or his original post they say that they're increasing the enemy difficulty and INCREASING loot quality.

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They aren't. If you read the Upcoming Patch Notes or his original post they say that they're increasing the enemy difficulty and INCREASING loot quality.


Increasing the enemy difficulty nearly to the point of sky city == wall o doom and SLIGHTLY increasing loot quality of THIS map.

Not of all the other maps.

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Are they really sending it to nearly sky level?? Geee people, how old are you anyway?? Are you happy now that you've ruined the fun other kids where having??

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Ran this map 6 times from level 20 through to 30 , I've seen 1 sup and a quite a lot of trans.....no ultimate.

It is easy but I wouldn't have said the loot was on par with aquonos....it's just quite a lot of trans which some ppl need to help them with nm.

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They aren't. If you read the Upcoming Patch Notes or his original post they say that they're increasing the enemy difficulty and INCREASING loot quality.


[quote]* Fixed Enemy Difficulty Scaling on The King's Game, additionally slightly increased the reward quality as a result of the error.

...

* Fixed Case of erroneous Ultimate weapon drops on King's Game.[/quote]

So yeah I guess they're buffing reward quality, but it sounds like the actual loot is getting a bit of a nerf.

And anyways the elitists' problem seems to be that the loot on this map is too good. All I'm saying is that maybe the real problem is that loot on other maps isn't good enough.

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