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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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All my characters have sub 1k stats. Beat NMHC on second try, got to wave 20 on NMHCMM before I slipped up and died (and I was just leveling my summoner instead of using my DPS monk). Which I think was further than I got on Deeper Well the previous night on NMHCMM

So I don't think making it more difficult is necessarily a bad thing though I am definitely gonna be farming as much loot as I can before the difficulty ramp. ;)

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With the diff increase will xp gained also increase or will it be the same, i hate leveling chars, so far this one is better than re doing city over and over, can't even afk in it because of the frigging djinn. Also could there be a stat that increases the chance of non-negative rewards from presents on the jester, maybe the move defence or wheel stat could cause that to happen just my opinion, hate getting ogres.

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Ok I come under the end game crowd. I have Ultimate defender, so I have seen it all and done it all.

Haha so Trendy your solution to help people out is scale the enemies like sky city? Well it's going to be interesting to see how people deal with 60+ million hp ogres, who are already having issues with previous shards map.

I worked hard to get to where I am and I just feel sorry for the people who are struggling and hitting the proverbial wall. The game was fine before Goblin Copters. This must be said. Your idea behind a new enemy in theory was a good one. However when you made the new enemy drop Ogres in immense numbers, well you pretty much limited the variety of class you could use effectively against them. You have nerfed them all too hell and yet the complaints are still coming in, but the reason people are struggling with Nightmare isn't because it's difficult. It's just purely cheap. Not many can combat against several high level ogres, yet alone hundreds of them.

Oh and this was never a bug haha.

http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?74572-New-map-is-way-to-easy...

Hitmon's response to agreeing that the intention of this map was to help bridge the gap between nightmare for struggling players in it's original form. What you see now was intentional, that is until a bunch of whiners came in and cried about it. Now it's mysteriously turned into a bug.

Hell this new buff isn't going to affect me, so bring it on. It's just disappointing to see them finally help the people who were struggling and then crush them shortly after. I rather more people on an even playing field and have some help to progress faster then what we have now. The result would have been a much stronger community.

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* Fixed Case of erroneous Ultimate weapon drops on King's Game.

wonder what this means

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I don't see the drops as being so much better than every other map. I've done a bunch nmhcmm survival runs with two summoners out past wave 20 (except for wave 30, I switched to hunters so I could get pawn shots). As far as armor drops go I averaged the following per run:

ultiamte: 0.5
supreme: 1.25
good useable trans: 3.5
really really good myth pieces: I didn't keep count, but I estimate between 5 and 8

Sure doesn't seem broken to me.

Those that say supremes and ultimates are dropping like candy... yeah supreme and ultimate weapons that are pieces of crap. I don't care if 4 ultimate and 6 supreme blunderbusses drop per wave. They're pieces of crap.

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And now the entire map has been nerfed and there is no longer a reason to play it. What was 15-20 good usable pieces of armor, is now 0 over the course of dozens of rounds. The fun has been sapped out again, and its the "I was miserable so you should be too - mommy, he has one more cookie than me" crowd that is responsible for it. Once again, the vocal minority has ruined it for the entire rest of the community, turning this game back into the boring, fruitless, end-game grindfest it has been for a long time.

What was a potential bridge is now another long, boring map without loot which you'd have to play for several hundreds of hours to get a single minute upgrade. Not interested anymore.

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* Fixed Case of erroneous Ultimate weapon drops on King's Game.

wonder what this means

Hopefully it means they fixed the bugs with things like Ultimate Sicarius's dropping and being able to be equipped when lower than level 90, as stated in this thread: http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?74731-Ultimate-gear-on-lvl-77-huntress

Tsuda said they weren't touchin the drops so this is my guess.

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Hopefully it means they fixed the bugs with things like Ultimate Sicarius's dropping and being able to be equipped when lower than level 90.

Tsuda said they weren't touchin the drops so this is my guess.


I was thinking the same at first- maybe it's just the sicarius's and not the entire loot system.

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First you can get 2.5k stats with trans alone. For each class you need maybe 1 stat to be really high. Builders were not out. we had 4 summoners out without minions. I do not think that requires skill which is why I think the map is to easy. All stats do is allow you to add more characters and have an easier time on the map.

We started playing again about 2 weeks before sky came out. We started aqua non mix with 2 monk dps unable to beat it and slowly worked our way to beating it. Then going to mix with monks and slowly adding an extra character as our stats got better. If you think you can just look up a build and suddenly win than you are misinformed. All builds have problems and need to be changed depending on stats of your characters. It does not only take 20 minutes to come up with a build, we did many runs on maps to find a build that works best for us, and even posting a build that works every time for us on aqua people with less than 2k stats are beating it all the while having to think of there own ways to change things that work for them.

Again I think you are just bad and can not accept that it takes more than having great gear.


You're killin me rofl. Your passive aggressive attitude is really not cool.

I'm not bad, and I know for a fact that good gear = easy runs. You give me 3k stats, I can do any NMHCMM run there is, without a doubt. All it takes is a solid build, and a bunch of repairing, and it ends there.

And yes, coming up with builds is fast and easy. Some maps might take more thought and effort then others, but all you have to do is start a hard or medium campaign level, get past the first wave with a genie, and you have enough mana for a full build. Then you just test out various builds, you have no time limit, and you can sell everything for max price, so you can literally try out any build you want. After you think you have a solid build, you swap to NM and test it, and there you go.

The effectiveness of the build is directly related to your characters stats. For example, let's take four people, one with 1k stats, one with 2k, one with 3, and one with 4k. You have them all do Alch labs on NMHCMM. 1k stats makes it to wave 15, and loses because the ogres overwhelm his defenses faster then he can fix them. 2k stats beats the map, but he had a rough time doing so, and had to repair every single second of the combat phase. 3k stats beat it easily, only repairing after every wave. 4k stats went into town to get some shopping done, and had his friend "g" up at the start of the build phase, then he AFKd it too.

Think I'm pulling that out of my behind? No, because when I was at 1k stats, I couldn't get past wave 15 on alch labs. I got 500 extra points in my stats, and suddenly I beat the map (it was very difficult, but doable if I focused).

So please, enlighten me on how you're "skillful". The fact that you and all of your friends were playing as summoners further proves my point about how skill is absent in this game beyond the level build. All you have to do is let your pets do insane DPS with a genie (or two dps pets, then collect the mana), press 2 or 3, then heal your defenses. Once you run out, 2 or 3 again, collect mana, repeat, and you're done.

If you wanna poke fun at me not having "skills", I beat AMP on a barbarian with ~1k hero stats when it first came out, after literally 30 hours of trying it non stop (I leveled from 74 to 75 JUST on AMP runs, that's like ~20k xp per run). That was back when barbs had to alternate clicks, get the timing perfectly, time the use of their stances, etc etc. That took hours to perfect, and was probably the most "skillful" thing I've ever done in this game.

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Please if your going to increase difficulty by as much as your planning please up the DU! Honestly 150seems way better than 115 if the diff is climbing that much. Let us add some extra walls and reflects.

Note I gave up reading at about page 2 and a half so if this is already happening thank you if not please give us a substantial DU increase.

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I am glad someone finally has the foresight to see what effects this map will have in its current state.


So the "effects" this map will have are reducing the grind extensively? How is this a bad thing? This boggles me. I don't play games to grind. I don't play games to hammer away at one map for hours on end without ever seeing a decent item. This is not fun. This is not good design.

If the game only lasts a week or two for you, because that's how long it takes to get good items, then the problem is with you, not with the game. The problem is you're staring at this game and all you want to do is grind. Grinding should never be the focus of a game. The focus should be on enjoyable, engaging gameplay. Personally, my enjoyment from this game comes not from watching a mass of numbers get bigger, it comes from devising new builds and playing with my friends. I see the grind as a blockade in the way of this enjoyment, not as the enjoyment itself. If a map is going to let me reduce that, then that sounds wonderful.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I perfectly understand the value of balancing player growth. If you just started into the game with 4k stats and everything unlocked, then yeah, it probably wouldn't have a lot of staying power. But that's not what this map is doing. It's not some sort of instant-win button. It's just a shortcut through a path that's been blocked entirely up to now. It doesn't make you godlike, it just gives you the tools you need to push further into NM. It's up to the player to figure out how to apply those tools. (I.E. the fun part.)

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"The greasy wheel gets the most oil"

Before I start my comment, I want to thank Trendy for an awesome map. I do not blame TE for anything here. They are just responding to their communities wishes, what other company is this good? None.


All this really boils down to is one thing; end game players trying to hold onto the monopoly of end game items so that only end game players can buy those items or the mana hackers.

It's really a shame that the difficulty is being increased, but let's face it; we all knew it was going to happen.

Trendy had to reply to the outburst of complaints that this was "too easy", and again I want to thank TE for being such a responsive company.

We can't blame Trendy, all we can do is hope that the difficulty doesn't increase too much. It seems this community just can't accept anything. "It's too hard", "it's too easy", when will it ever be good enough? I mean seriously, what does it really hurt if great items drop on an easier map that the shards maps? That might give the casuals the ability to tackle the real end game maps.

Disappointed isn't the right word for how I feel the community has responded, I just feel like people just don't care about others that are doing it tough. I can only hope that TE doesn't make it too difficult. Great map though, very frustrating at the start.


That pretty much rounds it all. People will never be satisfied, the game is too easy, the game is too hard, we are too weak...buff! we are too tough...nerf!!!

The huge problem with this is that Trendy will never be able to keep everyone satisfied at the same time, but they try and so far it's the coolest thing about the company.

Case is closed, final verdict is, end game players are afraid to lose their virtual phallus, low end game players believe this map will send them to 4k stats.

In a couple of days Trendy is increasing *both* the difficulty of the map *and* the quality of the loot, both sides lose, time to move on.




I'm not bad, and I know for a fact that good gear = easy runs. You give me 3k stats, I can do any NMHCMM run there is, without a doubt. All it takes is a solid build, and a bunch of repairing, and it ends there.



Yes you are, in other post in this very same thread you were commenting about how King's is not that easy and much less afk able. If you want to remain stuck into believing 3k stats will purchase you any NMHCMM run, an statement which btw shows how bad at this game you are, then fine, remain so, just stop it with the bull****, Trendy guarantees that you will get to keep your shinny King's loot, which some believe will send them to 4k in less than a week...HA!

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A lot of text coming. No TL;DR, either read it or don't.

Firstly thanks to all for keeping it on the civil side. We must remember this is a community, and we should all be looking out for each other. This is a PvE game, so only having a small percentage of players with high end stats does not help anyone except those who want to make a lot of mana.


I think I may have started an argument I was not intending to. First and foremost I used to be a hardcore player, but due to the "recent" birth of my daughter I find play time has decreased dramatically. That and I have taken on a lot more responsibility with community events, moderating and my day job. That's not relevant to anyone bar me though, but it has given me the unique opportunity to see both sides of the fence.


I guess my point is that gear =/= skill in this game, particularly this game. You can not brute force your way in this game. At least not with the loot drops that Kings Game can give currently. I do honestly feel for those who can't dedicate time to this game, but also understand that those who have got really high end stats have worked hard. If everyone had access to 4k stats, I really don't see how that would be a bad thing. I mean sure you couldn't sell inflated items anymore, but who realistically wants to pay hundreds of billions for items that total a couple of million?

Good loot in Kings Game at the current difficulty would mean that everyone could have a chance at doing HCNMCD. I personally don't care how good an item is from Kings Game, I want to be able to use those cool weapons, they are more of an achievement than reaching 4k stats.

I certainly haven't tried to offend anyone, so if I have I do apologize. As for people giving others gear to help them out, I would sincerely doubt you're giving out high end trans or supreme. If you are, that's very generous and commendable.

At the end of the day, if Trendy have said it was a mistake, I believe them. They have no reason to lie and in my experience haven't done so before. They have exceptionally open and honest about most things but do hold their cards close to their chest with reason. Contrary to popular belief I do not know anything more than the average user. Sure I talk to the Community team way more than others, but they tell me nothing :(

I am saddened that the difficulty will be increasing, but there is nothing we can do but hope its not too bad.

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Still got people complaining.. what is this? Ghost just..stop. 3/4 of your post is crying about something that we all know its broken.

Thanks for the update. :)


Most people clearly do not see how it is broken. I also think it is pretty obvious, but since others do not I continue to post on the matter.

[QUOTE]I guess my point is that gear =/= skill in this game, particularly this game. You can not brute force your way in this game. At least not with the loot drops that Kings Game can give currently. I do honestly feel for those who can't dedicate time to this game, but also understand that those who have got really high end stats have worked hard. If everyone had access to 4k stats, I really don't see how that would be a bad thing. I mean sure you couldn't sell inflated items anymore, but who realistically wants to pay hundreds of billions for items that total a couple of million?[/QUOTE]

This game is mostly gear and not skill, I hate to break it to you. It takes like 5 minutes to look up a build for a map and if you have the stats for it gg you win. And King's game has better drops then any other map in the game at the moment. You keep making it seem like you do not believe that based on what you write.

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Most people clearly do not see how it is broken. I also think it is pretty obvious, but since others do not I continue to post on the matter.



This game is mostly gear and not skill, I hate to break it to you. It takes like 5 minutes to look up a build for a map and if you have the stats for it gg you win. And King's game has better drops then any other map in the game at the moment. You keep making it seem like you do not believe that based on what you write.


I think you like to put words in my mouth. I would ask you to cease please.

I am happy to show you a brute force build on any map that will not work. Skill is paramount. That said you are entitled to your own opinion and all. :)

If your argument is that if someone shows you a build, you can do it... Then well... Obviously. Is that not the point of a guide? If you want to do it on your own, you don't need to read the guide.

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This is what always happens though in these situations. Some of the end game players immediately start complaining how about how it makes things easier while simultaneously farming the crap out of it. Result: the players who already had the best gear get even better gear and the newer players who don't have as much time to play get shafted again.

If they're gonna buff it then fine, but I think in the interest of fairness they could at least wait a week or so before fixing it.


This. I remember not playing DD for a while, then coming back an trying nightmare. While all the players who already had awesome gear could farm nightmare like crazy while there were still only spiders or djinn or what-have-you, while other players got stuck with trying to break into nightmare with all the crazy sharken and copters with godly gear.

I honestly feel like if you want a challenge, you should make it for yourself. For example, I made a challenge to myself the other day to complete Deeper Well on Hard HC with only a level 0 apprentice. I had a lot of fun doing it even as I cursed my lack of fireball towers and the ridiculously slow attack rate of my mm towers. It took a LOT of tries to do it, but eventually I got through it and won.

If you want a challenge, make one yourself. There's no reason why you can't either a) restrict yourself with certain criteria on maps (like the original campaign challenges) or create your own ridiculously hard map in Steam Workshop and show off how you can only finish it with 4k+ stats. There's no need to increase the gap between the overpowered and underpowered just because you want to stay in power on the top.

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So the "effects" this map will have are reducing the grind extensively? How is this a bad thing? This boggles me. I don't play games to grind. I don't play games to hammer away at one map for hours on end without ever seeing a decent item. This is not fun. This is not good design.

If the game only lasts a week or two for you, because that's how long it takes to get good items, then the problem is with you, not with the game. The problem is you're staring at this game and all you want to do is grind. Grinding should never be the focus of a game. The focus should be on enjoyable, engaging gameplay. Personally, my enjoyment from this game comes not from watching a mass of numbers get bigger, it comes from devising new builds and playing with my friends. I see the grind as a blockade in the way of this enjoyment, not as the enjoyment itself. If a map is going to let me reduce that, then that sounds wonderful.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I perfectly understand the value of balancing player growth. If you just started into the game with 4k stats and everything unlocked, then yeah, it probably wouldn't have a lot of staying power. But that's not what this map is doing. It's not some sort of instant-win button. It's just a shortcut through a path that's been blocked entirely up to now. It doesn't make you godlike, it just gives you the tools you need to push further into NM. It's up to the player to figure out how to apply those tools. (I.E. the fun part.)


I also agree with this. A lot of the fun I get from this game is the journey and not the end-game. I often delete characters and restart at level 0 just to remember how fun it was to figure out how you could make your tower build work with only 1 character or certain towers. Games that just grind get really old, really fast; I think I played Diablo III for about a month before I decided the grinding was getting old.

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I have logged countless hours playing this game, and have done it because it is a fun game. But it has it's problems, and the gear gap is the biggest.

I am no means a bad player. I got the Dungeon Defenders trophy for getting all the achievements back when that was all there were. Sadly I was unable to play when Shards was released, back when you could run the levels without Sharks and Helecopter Orges so I am hitting that gear wall that happens after you get mid level Myth.

Skill helps, but this game is ALL ABOUT THE GEAR. There is nothing wrong with that, that's what RPG means. This is not Team Forteess where it's all about your skill and everyone is on equal footing. Having 3500 tower stats means you can do levels that someone with 1500 stats simply can't no matter how good they are.

People say Kings is too easy. The Campaign might be, but survival is not. I have a mix of characters with between 1000 to 1500 stats, some pushing 2000 and I find Kings a serious challenge. After one successful run last night I have tried and failed to hit 20 several times now. (Of course a steam disconnect or two didn't help.)

Skill is NOT paramount. Do Aqua NM on Godly gear. Skill is important, but without the gear, it does nothing. Others have said it better, but progression is broken, there is a huge gap and pretty much everyone I know who has good stats got them either back when it was much easier, or bought it from shops. Breaking into mid level Tran is seriously hard when only a few maps drop them, and only at the hardest waves and difficulties and even then the usable ones are very rare.

Someone really skilled can do more with the same stats than someone who is not, but not much. Without the equipment, you have tothign for your skills to work with.

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You can substitute reading guides, or more stats, for skills. You can't substitute anything for more stats.

Yes, if you have a truly lousy build, no legitimate stats will get you through it. But 5 minutes of reading a guide and 15 minutes of replicating the build will be good enough if your stats are high enough.

Yes, it takes skill to do certain things. Certain bosses take some skill, and Assault takes some skill. But at least in the case of Assault, it's not very rewarding, and you can still brute force it. But no amount of skill will let you take down the Kraken on NM HC with 150 Hero HP and 150 Hero Damage... again, stats are irreplaceable.

This is why gear is more important. The skill curve in this game is atrociously low, and if "skill" was the only difficulty, the game would be incredibly dull.

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Yes you are, in other post in this very same thread you were commenting about how King's is not that easy and much less afk able. If you want to remain stuck into believing 3k stats will purchase you any NMHCMM run, an statement which btw shows how bad at this game you are, then fine, remain so, just stop it with the bull****, Trendy guarantees that you will get to keep your shinny King's loot, which some believe will send them to 4k in less than a week...HA!


Yeah, 406 hours (maybe 10 of them are from having an AFK shop up), who's farmed the hell out of any and every map I can using my own builds makes me a bad player. Quit trying to start a flame war.

I got bored one day and went into Open, to try out some builds with some armor from the Myth farming maps. My stats went to about 2.5k, and I could now easily do the maps that in Ranked I can't do. Why? Because my towers and hero stats were so good that I didn't need to worry about my defenses. It isn't even a question, if you have the stats for it, any and all maps are possible. I'm not talking about challenges, those do require a skill level far higher then anything else in the game (except for Boss rush, getting an extra 2k tower for my Monk and an extra 1.5k to 2k for my DPS char means I can tank and kill all of the bosses in NMHC, it turns into a joke if you have the stats for it), I'm talking about Campaign maps.

If you don't believe me, get someone who has at least 3k stats, and learn their build for one of the Shards NMHCMM survival runs, one that lets them AFK, only repairing during the build phase. Equip gear and get around 1k stats, and see if you can AFK the same map. I'd be willing to bet you 2b mana that you can't, and you would lose before wave 15 if you tried to AFK it.

And did I say that it would be a breeze doing those maps? No, you even quoted what I said. "You give me 3k stats, I can do any NMHCMM run there is, without a doubt. All it takes is a solid build, and a bunch of repairing". I highlighted it incase you missed it.

All you need in this game to do ANY map is good tower stats, a good DPS character, a solid build, and the ability to know when to repair your defenses, and when to kill off sections that are getting swarmed. If you take out any of those factors, then you're going to fail at this game, without a doubt. I can reach wave 25 NMHCMM Alch Labs "easily" (it takes a hell of a lot of repairing and DPSing to beat it, and even then I have to be careful), but I don't stand a chance in Aquanos NM campaign. You double my stats, I'd easily beat Campaign Aquanos. I already have a very solid build for the map, all I'm missing is the stats for it. Kraken would be no problem, I've fought it enough in boss rush to know his patterns and attack styles. Same goes for all the bosses (except for the sky city boss, I've only fought it once on easy).

So, don't go assuming things. The reason I don't want Trendy to buff this map isn't because I'm "bad" and because I want 4k stats, the reason is because I'm sick and tired of them listening to the people who DO have 4k stats, as if they're dun def experts. Yeah, chances are they spent a lot of time farming (more time then most people have to spend on this game, which is another reason) to get that gear, and even more time learning the maps and how to play them, but when they give in and buff everything to cater to those players, the rest of the community who's at my level is left high and dry. It's as if they're spitting in our faces, saying "Well, you can easily spend a thousand more hours farming maps to get this gear, so quit complaining".

Hitmonchan even agreed:

" Quote Originally Posted by some_guy View Post
I like it the way it is. It's a nice change of pace and should actually help out those that are trying to break into nightmare mode."

08-08-2012 07:44 PM
Hitmonchan
Agreed.

(link: http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?74572-New-map-is-way-to-easy...&p=603204&viewfull=1[[1627,hashtags]])

So quit assuming things, and open your eyes.

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I find this map to be perfectly balanced for a new level 74. After attempting this map several times, I was finally able to complete it on NM with a squire with garbage myths I bought from a player shop. This enabled me to get a few better myths, and push my tower attack and attack speed 1000+. With those stats, I was able to get to wave 20 NMHC on this new map, where I previously struggled to complete wave 1 of any NM map. I tried Endless Spires NM, and failed. I believe the map is perfect how it is. It gives the gear you need, but no strategies. It simply enables the player to develop SUCCESSFUL strategies because they actually have some decent gear.

Most people that complain it is too easy are the ones with 1000-2000 stats who can AFK NMHC maps..

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Another thing that's a shame that I just realized... it's so nice to have a map that you can actually pick up where you left off because you got screwed by random disconnect.

It's so unbelievably frustrating to set up your build (on say Sky City), diligently upgrade everything to 3 stars and then disconnect in the early 20s (just when the good loot starts dropping) because a bird flew within 10 meters of one of the power lines outside Valve HQ.

This is much less a problem on King's Game. If you have the stats, you can start at the later waves and therefore you don't screwed over nearly as much by these bs disconnects that people have been begging to have fixed for as long as remember.

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I think you like to put words in my mouth. I would ask you to cease please.

I am happy to show you a brute force build on any map that will not work. Skill is paramount. That said you are entitled to your own opinion and all. :)

If your argument is that if someone shows you a build, you can do it... Then well... Obviously. Is that not the point of a guide? If you want to do it on your own, you don't need to read the guide.



You are arguing that the game is more skill based then gear based. I was simply disagreeing. A build has nothing to do with skill, just knowledge. Unless of course you think placing towers on the ground requires some sort of skill. The only skill based things in the game are boss encounters and challenges in my opinion.

And I didn't put any words in your mouth, I said that your writing made me believe that you did not think the new map had drops that were better then all other maps.

[QUOTE]I mean, don't get me wrong. I perfectly understand the value of balancing player growth. If you just started into the game with 4k stats and everything unlocked, then yeah, it probably wouldn't have a lot of staying power. But that's not what this map is doing. It's not some sort of instant-win button. It's just a shortcut through a path that's been blocked entirely up to now. It doesn't make you godlike, it just gives you the tools you need to push further into NM. It's up to the player to figure out how to apply those tools.[/QUOTE]

Actually this is basically an insta-win button. It doesn't give you the tools to push further into nightmare, it gives you the tools required to beat everything in the game without doing anything else.

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I find this map to be perfectly balanced for a new level 74. After attempting this map several times, I was finally able to complete it on NM with a squire with garbage myths I bought from a player shop. This enabled me to get a few better myths, and push my tower attack and attack speed 1000+. With those stats, I was able to get to wave 20 NMHC on this new map, where I previously struggled to complete wave 1 of any NM map. I tried Endless Spires NM, and failed. I believe the map is perfect how it is. It gives the gear you need, but no strategies. It simply enables the player to develop SUCCESSFUL strategies because they actually have some decent gear.

Most people that complain it is too easy are the ones with 1000-2000 stats who can AFK NMHC maps..


I'm complaining it's too easy because I can AFK this, while there are plenty of early NM HC maps I can't... with worse loot.

Nightmare Throne Room Survival, I was able to AFK through wave 20. After that I had to frequently repair, and I wiped on 25 due to a mistake that got me killed. I got 2 Trans the entire run.

Nightmare King's Game Survival, I was able to AFK through wave 29. I wiped on wave 30 due to an Ogre walking through my minions. I got at least 40 Trans items and a handful of Supremes. This is more than I find on Aquanos through Wave 25, and I can't even come close to doing Aqua right now without friends who've been playing and therefore have better tower stats.

Why should I aspire to run Aqua when I'm getting better loot right here, when I can AFK this with Misty-level stats? Why should I aspire to do anything else after I'm done right here?

Don't get me wrong, it's great to have a chance to catch up to my friends in equipment... but this isn't good for the game's balance or progression. No one level should invalidate a good portion of the game singlehandedly by being easier and giving better loot. This is the same complaint I had about Endless Spires back when no Ogres spawned and it was literally easier than Deeper Wells.

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Why should I aspire to run Aqua when I'm getting better loot right here, when I can AFK this with Misty-level stats? Why should I aspire to do anything else after I'm done right here?

.


So you can get a good seahorse. So you can complete all of the content and do Crystal Dimension. So you can get all the other cool stuff that's not available on this map.

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