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The King's Game and its state of balance.


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I'm not sure if you know about this, but the random effect tiles have a chance of increasing the max du in the map. The du increases from 115 to 125 which seems to me atleast be reasonable.
So basically you will get a chance to complete the map if you're lucky? That sounds amazing... yeah not really.

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I have seen some inaccurate information being thrown around in this thread. Mainly that the drops from this new map are as good as the shard maps. This is incorrect. They are significantly better then any of the shards maps in terms of loot quality. Ultimates drop pre wave 20 and in the later waves ultimates drop like candy compared to any of the other maps. This is ok if the difficulty is increased, it still sounds like it is going to be too easy but oh well.

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How will it not be another brickwall? If players can't do the shards maps, I don't see how making the enemies as difficult as they are on the final shard map will turn this into anything but another brick wall.


The new map's tile assets will make it easier. Especially the tile that kills all the ogres on screen, which will personally make my day the first time I get it.

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Ultimates drop pre wave 20 and in the later waves ultimates drop like candy compared to any of the other maps..
I have yet to see a single Ult. Weapons or Armors? Trans drop like 'candy' after around wave 15, and drop even more past 20. I've only seen a few Sup pieces however. Do note though only armor drops for me.

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I have yet to see a single Ult. Weapons or Armors? Trans drop like 'candy' after around wave 15, and drop even more past 20. I've only seen a few Sup pieces however. Do note though only armor drops for me.


Guess you are unlucky. I have seen 10+ ultimate's drop after 2 survival runs, one of which I started at wave 28. Supreme's were just as common, and trans littered the map. For reference I saw 2 ultimates total so far after 10 runs of survival Talay. That's a massive statistical difference, luck aside.

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I have yet to see a single Ult. Weapons or Armors? Trans drop like 'candy' after around wave 15, and drop even more past 20. I've only seen a few Sup pieces however. Do note though only armor drops for me.


Yeah, same here, and so so trans, it's not like you see 300+ ups pieces with perfect dps/tower stats, other than that, a few useless wepons in sup quality. The whole ults dropping like candies is delusional, and I repeat, people fall victim to the gear class too easily, I've seen to many utlimates that are basically useless unless you can get a full set of them.

How many of those were weapons though, as opposed to armors?


the key question is, how many of those are useful?

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How many of those were weapons though, as opposed to armors?


I think one ultimate was armor. Why does it matter since the whole point is how it compares to other maps. 1 ultimate armor in 1 run is better then 0 in 10. And 10+ total ultimates in 2 is certainly a massive difference to 2 in 10. The type of drop and the usefulness is really irrelevant to my point. No one is debating that grinding for gear is going to take a long time still. The problem is that now there is no point to grinding any other map.

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[QUOTE]I can hardly wait till trendy sees this topic, and sees all the 3k+ stats people complaining how easy the map is, then they buff it so it's damn near impossible. They might as well rename it to Palantir 2 if they do, and ima just go back to crying as I can only get 10 waves into insane survival t,t.[/QUOTE]

There we go, called it. "As difficult as Sky City" means I'm out, I can't even get past the first wave of sky city.

You guys should just cut the BS and make another difficulty, one for people with 3k stats. It's seriously stupid how they always get their way, I've seen it time and time again here, and every time it happens you get the hundreds of 500-1.5k stats complaining how impossible progression is, and the 3k stats telling them to shut up because it's the easiest thing they've ever done in their gaming career.

Yeah, I admit that the new map is crazy easy, and the rewards are crazy awesome (got to wave 15 then d/cd from steam, that was fun), but I actually had a lot of fun. It's definitely not "AFKable" as everyone claims it is, I afkd for 10 seconds and a copter killed my char + almost killed a wall and a few minions (had I not been split screening with my jester, I would have lost), but it's doable with a large amount of effort on my part. And what's more, I actually had a lot of fun doing it. I don't want a map where I have to spend 10 hours on every wave, repairing as if my life depended on it (which it usually does), then rage quitting because my defenses go down because I can't get to them while focusing on one set. I want a map that's doable, not impossible, and gets me loot that I can actually use.

I don't know if you guys will read this little rant (but your staff is pretty amazing, I've rarely seen anyone so open and in touch with their community), and I know that what I have to say is just going to be disregarded, and I'm going to be labeled as another kid with crap gear, who just wants to get end game with little to no effort on my part (my 406 hours will disagree with you on that), but I'm just getting tired of the end game community getting their way all the time. Make some impossible content for them, and let us have our easy maps.

And, I figure I might as well contribute a real suggestion, but you guys should increase the DU and MU's for the map if you're going to be buffing things. Two or three more buff beams would be an absolute life saver, and would make the map a lot less stressful with increased enemy difficulty. Oh, and if possible, could you make Copters top priority for Minions? I've literally sat there and watched as my line of 6 Archers just stand there while getting decimated by two copters, and completely ignoring my order to attack. I'm not sure if the minions are stupid, or if it's a bug of some sort (nothing was attacking them, just the copters. They literally just stand there doing nothing.)

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Loot quality itself. Trans/Sup/Ult Weapons generally have lesser value than Armors. As most of the weapons that drop are garbage compared to completion rewards, complaining about such a thing is foolish. It isn't like you're finding Ult Steam Saws on the ground, or CD weapons.

It's definitely not "AFKable" as everyone claims it is, I afkd for 10 seconds and a copter killed my char + almost killed a wall and a few minions (had I not been split screening with my jester, I would have lost), but it's doable with a large amount of effort on my part.
This is largely based on the players stats, and tower placements. If your stats are high enough of course it is afkable, however a large majority of players aren't able to. I honestly think the map is great for newer players, or older players who don't have hundreds, to thousands of hours to spend farming so they can progress further into harder NM maps.

The problem is that now there is no point to grinding any other map.

This is only partially true, and you're basically saying the only reason to play a map is to grind? Ever hear of playing a map for fun, or because you like the map? This map doesn't give the best everything you'll still have to 'grind' other maps.

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Loot quality itself. Trans/Sup/Ult Weapons generally have lesser value than Armors. As most of the weapons that drop are garbage compared to completion rewards, complaining about such a thing is foolish. It isn't like you're finding Ult Steam Saws on the ground, or CD weapons.


Instead I found a squire tower ult better than anything I have ever seen. Even if the loot quality is the same as sky or aqua. Something is still wrong with it being this easy.

Unfortunately this change does nothing for the actual problem in the game. The problem is the awful overall quality of loot. I have run at least 1 survival a day since sky has come out. Sometimes even 3-4. I have done runs with 4 summoner for just armor and some with 1 other class for their weapons. I have seen over 100 ults drop and across 15 characters I am using 3 while 5 are in my floor shop. The rest have been sold at end of wave. This is the real problem the game has. Ultimates do not feel worthwhile. They either are missing a resist with dps stat or have a huge neg in a stat that is needed. I don't know what they have to do but something has to be changed. It is the last and best quality of loot and yet I am passing it up for trans gear.

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Loot quality itself. Trans/Sup/Ult Weapons generally have lesser value than Armors. As most of the weapons that drop are garbage compared to completion rewards, complaining about such a thing is foolish. It isn't like you're finding Ult Steam Saws on the ground, or CD weapons.


You missed the entire point. The loot "quality" is the exact same as any other map at the very least. But the drop chances are higher, meaning that farming any other map is pointless. The time it takes to get good quality loot is just as long as any other map, but this map is easier and drops more so farming the other maps is both pointless and useless now.

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damn it dont even get a chance to make use of this great loot


This is what always happens though in these situations. Some of the end game players immediately start complaining how about how it makes things easier while simultaneously farming the crap out of it. Result: the players who already had the best gear get even better gear and the newer players who don't have as much time to play get shafted again.

If they're gonna buff it then fine, but I think in the interest of fairness they could at least wait a week or so before fixing it.

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This is only partially true, and you're basically saying the only reason to play a map is to grind? Ever hear of playing a map for fun, or because you like the map? This map doesn't give the best everything you'll still have to 'grind' other maps.


Wrong. It does drop the best everything. Except for pets of course, and the squire/monk weps from sky city are better. However, the point is if you are trying to farm gear for your character's, you will be able to obtain the best gear possible from this map alone and after that you are done. No other map will have better gear dropping. Playing maps for the sake of the experience is something you do once, maybe twice. This is a loot based game. The game is all about getting loot to progress and clear harder content. If that isn't what you like to do in a game go play something else.

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That's fine that you're going to increase the difficulty a bit, as well as the rewards slightly. I didn't mind it being a bit easier (okay, a lot easier) than the other shard maps, it helps me gear up for trying to complete the other maps on Nightmare. It's a fun map and easy to defend, so I do like the idea of mobs just being a bit stronger since they are already at a rather severe disadvantage.

However, is there any possibility of increasing the time we have to set up between each wave? I found it to be just too limiting. Often times I would bring out my builder as soon as I could by waiting next to the forge, have them set up towers, and be unable to make it back in time to switch out again.

I don't really feel like the time limit on waves does much to make the game any more fun, so when it's really low it becomes just a real annoyance rather than any more difficult or enjoyable.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss with us, it's neat to get to hear from the developers.

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This is largely based on the players stats, and tower placements. If your stats are high enough of course it is afkable, however a large majority of players aren't able to. I honestly think the map is great for newer players, or older players who don't have hundreds, to thousands of hours to spend farming so they can progress further into harder NM maps.


That's what I'm saying though. It's in no way the easiest map for people with medium stats. Yes, it's easier then any of the Shards maps, and Palantir, and pretty much all of the new content that's been released since the game was released, but you still have to put effort into playing it. These people with 3-4k stats, full Ult armor with Ult pets and Ult weapons find it so easy simply because they're overpowered, there's no other way of looking at it. And Dungeon Defenders is not a game about Skill, it's a game about who has the best stats. I'm going to get a lot of hate for saying so, but there's no other way of looking at it. The only "skill" required is timing Staff charges, and back when the barbarian came out, timing combos.

The problem here is that Trendy always looks to the people with end game gear for balancing solutions, simply because these players find the entire game too easy. Why? Because they have stats that let them afk maps. My Summoner has 900 tower HP, and 1200 Tower Attack (1800 if I have my two giraffes, but I usually go with my seahorse/genie combo for mana), and if I'm not there repairing them every time an ogre drops in to say hello, I'm going to lose the map. People with stats 4x better then me don't have to worry about that, because the minions kill off ogres before they even know what hit em.

I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse though (or whatever that saying is). All the new content gets harder and harder, with no exceptions. I guess I just love how we finally got a new map, that's easy, very fun and enjoyable, and gives good loot. It's like when AMP came out, AMP was difficult, but doable with my stats back then (maybe 1k straight hero stats, weapon with 15k damage). Then the end game players cried about how easy it was, and now it's impossible. I've gotten way better gear since then, and I still can't do the maps. I'm just tired of them always getting their way.

The game is all about getting loot to progress and clear harder content. If that isn't what you like to do in a game go play something else.


No one is saying this game isn't about getting better loot. Everyone is just saying we don't want to spend hours upon hours on the same map to get a single piece of loot that increases your stats by ~20, and then when you finish with that map, you go to the next best one and repeat.

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I play the game to grind, not to have fun. Everyone else should play the game the exact same way as me.
This is pretty much how you sound. While I do agree the map is too easy, it doesn't mean they need to make it as hard as Talay Mines. Honestly the problem isn't this map, it's the rest of the maps not dropping anything. There needs to be a balance between 'want to play with friends fun' and 'grinding for gear fun' if you will. Now the issue is to find a balance to make both parties happy.

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This is what always happens though in these situations. Some of the end game players immediately start complaining how about how it makes things easier while simultaneously farming the crap out of it. Result: the players who already had the best gear get even better gear and the newer players who don't have as much time to play get shafted again.

If they're gonna buff it then fine, but I think in the interest of fairness they could at least wait a week or so before fixing it.


This.

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That's what I'm saying though. It's in no way the easiest map for people with medium stats. Yes, it's easier then any of the Shards maps, and Palantir, and pretty much all of the new content that's been released since the game was released, but you still have to put effort into playing it. These people with 3-4k stats, full Ult armor with Ult pets and Ult weapons find it so easy simply because they're overpowered, there's no other way of looking at it. And Dungeon Defenders is not a game about Skill, it's a game about who has the best stats. I'm going to get a lot of hate for saying so, but there's no other way of looking at it. The only "skill" required is timing Staff charges, and back when the barbarian came out, timing combos.

The problem here is that Trendy always looks to the people with end game gear for balancing solutions, simply because these players find the entire game too easy. Why? Because they have stats that let them afk maps. My Summoner has 900 tower HP, and 1200 Tower Attack (1800 if I have my two giraffes, but I usually go with my seahorse/genie combo for mana), and if I'm not there repairing them every time an ogre drops in to say hello, I'm going to lose the map. People with stats 4x better then me don't have to worry about that, because the minions kill off ogres before they even know what hit em.

I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse though (or whatever that saying is). All the new content gets harder and harder, with no exceptions. I guess I just love how we finally got a new map, that's easy, very fun and enjoyable, and gives good loot. It's like when AMP came out, AMP was difficult, but doable with my stats back then (maybe 1k straight hero stats, weapon with 15k damage). Then the end game players cried about how easy it was, and now it's impossible. I've gotten way better gear since then, and I still can't do the maps. I'm just tired of them always getting their way.



No one is saying this game isn't about getting better loot. Everyone is just saying we don't want to spend hours upon hours on the same map to get a single piece of loot that increases your stats by ~20, and then when you finish with that map, you go to the next best one and repeat.


You sound misinformed. Across all the builders and dps me and friend use 3 ults. Maybe about 10-15 sups and even some mythical on builders. We started wave 28 without using minions and we each had an extra character out. We both went afk and tabbed in to press g. Upgraded only what we could with extra chests. The map is way to easy for the level of rewards it gives.

If you do not think the game requires skill, maybe that is the reason you are not able to beat things.

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Saddened to see that they are ramping up the difficulty on the map due to a bunch of whiners. There was a fun map to do rather than the usual grind and pray method, of grinding for more gear and praying your crystal didn't explode due to some unknown force.

Oh well, time to farm it before the patch to actually get some decent gear, and have some left over to give away to people to keep the karma chain going.

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Saddened to see that they are ramping up the difficulty on the map due to a bunch of whiners. There was a fun map to do rather than the usual grind and pray method, of grinding for more gear and praying your crystal didn't explode due to some unknown force.


Not to mention that pretty much all their complaints are based on the way other people are progressing instead of their own experience with the game... i.e. "Trendy, I don't like the fact that other people playing through the game differently and easier than I did. Please fix this." as opposed to "Trendy, this is making the game less fun for me and is affecting the way I play in negative fashion. Please fix this."

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This is pretty much how you sound. While I do agree the map is too easy, it doesn't mean they need to make it as hard as Talay Mines. Honestly the problem isn't this map, it's the rest of the maps not dropping anything. There needs to be a balance between 'want to play with friends fun' and 'grinding for gear fun' if you will. Now the issue is to find a balance to make both parties happy.


In agree. The other maps need to be fixed in regards to loot drops. But since that hasn't happened, making an ez mode alternative that drops better loot then all the other maps is not the solution, it is a cop out.

[QUOTE]Not to mention that pretty much all their complaints are based on the way other people are progressing instead of their own experience with the game... i.e. "Trendy, I don't like the fact that other people playing through the game differently and easier than I did. Please fix this." as opposed to "Trendy, this is making the game less fun for me and is affecting the way I play in negative fashion. Please fix this."[/QUOTE]

No. The problem is not that other people are playing different from me. It is that the progression of the game has been destroyed because now this new map is best option for farming gear, and is easier then the other maps. This means after you finish farming this map, you have nowhere else to go. Maybe you play through the harder maps once for the achievement, but very quickly you'll have nothing left to do in the game. This retracts from the overall quality of the game in general, not just my experience.

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Wait so A new Map gets an unnecessary fix, before does CD and all it bugs? Did I miss the memo?

Also It seem like this is an official so I don't think we can do much. Sad thought because I thought Trendy goal was to help newer players gear up. I may still be their goal but the map was just fine.

For the record all my start are above 2.5k+ and I like the idea this map help others. No more "Builder needed. kick after build" rooms.

I would just ask Trendy not to do the Patch for a week and let people enjoy it. Or for the whole 2 week the Jester is free.

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Not to mention that pretty much all their complaints are based on the way other people are progressing instead of their own experience with the game... i.e. "Trendy, I don't like the fact that other people playing through the game differently and easier than I did. Please fix this." as opposed to "Trendy, this is making the game less fun for me and is affecting the way I play in negative fashion. Please fix this."


Precisely. Even dropping the loot that it does won't allow you to murder the end game content. You'll still need to know how to build and how to defend. I remember the great loot divide that came at the release of Uber Monster Fest. Patch 7.19b I believe it was....could be wrong. People who got their hands on the superloot godly were able to just take off from the rest of the player base and are among those with the top tier stats now.

The game needs a bridge, especially considering that the jump from insane to nightmare looks very much similar to that graphic about the learning curve for EVE Online. Kings Game felt like that bridge.

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