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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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The problem is, for all those people who enjoyed this map as a stepping stone... it ISN'T. It doesn't bridge any of the large gaps, it simply skips to the end. The loot quality on this map is essentially at the same level as the very hardest maps. Look at the pawnshot for instance... an Ultimate Pawnshot literally has more damage per upgrade and the same SPS of the Ultimate Eternian Energy Cannon. It's BETTER than the weapon from the hardest map in the game. Not to mention, if you want to get a NM HC level Pawnshot, all you have to do is select NM HC. If you want a NM HC level CD weapon, you have to beat all 4 eternia maps on NM HC first, THEN beat an extremely challenging level.

The loot in the level is incredible too. I've never seen Transcendent items dropped in Campaign mode before. I don't know the exact numbers involved, but I expect that the actual drop quality on this map is at least equal to that of the high-end Shards maps.

We're not talking about bridging a gap here, guys. We're talking about building a long enough bridge that climbs past everything, because there's very little improvement to be had once you finish farming this map.

If it was truly bridging a gap, making it easier for people to start farming their upgrades from Aquanos or Sky City instead, I'd be all for it. But it seems HARDER to find upgrades on Aqua/Sky City... not because you can't beat them, but because the gear here is better.


You are saying it is directly skipping to the end. For you, maybe. Because you actually easily CAN get to waves above 20 or 30 where those things drop. Me and the biggest part of DD Players cant. So it is a start having a map where we can get a few trans or maybe a supreme.

I now have come to wave 15 on this map (stats for all between 1000 - 1700) and had only crap mythicals dropped. Every wave i have to rebuilt many things because they got destroyed. My best DPS Barbarian nearly gets one hit killed by Dark Elves and even worse by Kobolds. For me this map is not skipping anything to the end. For me it is a bridge.

You know what? I am seeing more and more players hacking and risking their accounts because they just can get further. For me that is no option at all. I want to play a game and feel progress. Not running in circles every single map i play.

For getting from stats aroung 1200 - 1300 to stats araound 1400 - 1700 i had to do much farming on Nightmare HC MM Survival to wave 25 on Throneroom. One run needs time around 3 - 4 hours. Meaning if i have really much time i can do 2 runs a day. (Work etc)
And theres no quarante finding a trans or some better mythical armor for me. So theres a (big) chance doing a 4 hours run and being as strong as before. Thats no fun for me.

And be honest. How many players of you got your end game gear only by yourself (without new patch / releases bugs, without joining a stronger player doing stuff for you, without buying some stuff at those insane priced shops).
Sometimes i feel like everything which is good has its roots in an /a few hacked players who made it possible to optain these baddass gears.

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Did you know that Sky City mobs are actually easier then Aquanos? Or that Arabia's mobs are harder then all other Shards maps? I know its hard to understand the comparison I am making to Sky City, but you have to trust me when I am only describing the difficulty of the mobs from a pure back end numbers stand point. The map will still be significantly easier than Sky City.

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Definitely this. If you're going to increase the difficulty, Misty/Moraggo levels would be much better, IMO. Map is way too small and open to be Sky City level of difficulty.


Especially when you add the incredibly low build time.

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Did you know that Sky City mobs are actually easier then Aquanos? Or that Arabia's mobs are harder then all other Shards maps? I know its hard to understand the comparison I am making to Sky City, but you have to trust me when I am only describing the difficulty of the mobs from a pure back end numbers stand point. The map will still be significantly easier than Sky City.


I love getting insight like this from the people who have seen the actual numbers.

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Did you know that Sky City mobs are actually easier then Aquanos? Or that Arabia's mobs are harder then all other Shards maps? I know its hard to understand the comparison I am making to Sky City, but you have to trust me when I am only describing the difficulty of the mobs from a pure back end numbers stand point. The map will still be significantly easier then Sky City.


Yeah, but in sky city sharken breeze through gas traps thanks to the jumping up and down, also , we get copters flying in from everywhere.

We never saw many complaints about sky city enemies apart from the djinn dispawning towers through walls, because its the map that provides the challenge, not the enemies.

Moraggo provides thight corridors, making it easier to condense those harder than other enemies, again, the map allows for such measures.

Its not the enemies that most of the times provide the challenge, its the Map's design. Thats why Aquanos was the most farmed and still is ( probably). the structure of the map allows for a good control of enemies and their spawns.


For those saying this wasnt a stepping stone or a bridge to get into NM, it was ( is. depends on how hard these new enemies will get ). Most people complaining about how easy it was, were decked out in 2500+ gear mostly.

Yes, the Map is (Was..) easy. So what? Instead of messing this up a lot, why not rework the loot drops on other maps? People would love to get back to other maps im sure, if the quality of the loot proved to be equal as the high end maps of Shards.

HEck, most Campaign maps are harder than Shards on NM.

I am NOT defending that the Kings Game should've kept being a free loot pinata, nor am I saying this is the end of everything as we know it. No.

All I am saying is, I saw it coming as soon as the they announced the map. Trendy likes to do this ( even if its a ..."bug"). PEople will farm the crap out of this till the patch is released, get HQ myths and above, and those that didn't get the chance to do so, will get screwed, as they WILL hit another wall on progression, since there is NO progression between Insane -> NM.

Most people saw this as a breathing bubble to allow them to get back into the High End game.

Again, I will wait and see for how HARD these enemies will get. But Some Guy said it right, the cluster will get nearly impossible for "mid tier" players to get anywhere.

Fix the old maps instead of releasing/Fixing (the) new ones.

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Perhaps add a Giraffe for Survival completion? Maybe even a Pet Rock if it's completed on NMHCMM ?

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Tsuda,

In my opinion the reason why this map is giving better drops then most of the higher end and harder maps is not because the drops on this easier map is better but because on the harder maps more of the supposed to be good drops run into the roll over bug therefore in actuality getting crappier drops which break the natural progression.

In my opinion this new map has hit the sweet spot where the stats that get generated are just below the threashold where they roll over and thus giving the semblance of giving way to good drops for its difficulty.

I remain however from the opinion that I prefer the game as it is then how you are intending to make it WITHOUT IMMEDIATELY ALSO glossing over the difficultyfactor that the new copters have introduced in these other maps and fixing this propperly (make the dropped ogres mini ogres, so that you do NOT get 60 mill ogres dropped behind your defenses). While at the same time changing some of the unused or low used towers / auras as especially good versus these copters. With these changes I could live with the increase of the difficulty of this map.

Without these changes though I can only say that as it stands this game is just to much of a pain in the arse to enjoy and all this just because of the introduction of the shards 4 new mobs since all the supposed to be good hard counters just don't pack the punch unless having overpowered stats compared to the receiving drops which brings us back to the ongoing discussion... namely progression or more of the lack of progression unless you are someone who doesn't work 80 hours a week and doesn't want to be forced to work in his spare time but just wants to enjoy the game and the associated difficulty while still feeling like he is improving every time he plays.

So to cut to the chase... I prefer a big shortcut if you aren't going to look at and change the progression as it stands now which makes me at least spend like 100 to prolly 300 more hours. Then to keep it as it stands now... since as it stands now I just gave up and been spending my money on other games.

And I am telling you now... that the fact that making the same mistake 4 times concerning the progressiondifficulties, although I could accept it for a beta... just not for the finished product that shard 4 was supposed to be, hasn't really made me interested (otherwise stated sallivate)immediately into any new projects that trendy is going to undertake. Unlike what to me the eternian shards DLC was based on my experience with DD the base game.

I'm just going to compare it with another RPG, namely the witcher... their good product has made for me their new project an instant buy. Due to how the witcher 2 has fared... their next new project is going to be for me as well an new instant buy.

In comparison we have Dragon age 1 and dragon age 2. Dragon age 1 made me instabuy dragon age 2. Dragon age 2 however has made a possible dragon age 3 not into an insta buy. Just like Mass effect 4 will not be an instabuy unlike mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 were to me. And that is based on the experience of both mass effect 3 as dragon age 2.

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So you know this map is the most fun i have had in the game for a while, so don't make it too hard


YEah, like before, people have fun when they get their time / reward invesment to be actually....good.

Not when they have to grind 3 days and pray to RNG gods to get something at least useful.

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You are saying it is directly skipping to the end. For you, maybe. Because you actually easily CAN get to waves above 20 or 30 where those things drop. Me and the biggest part of DD Players cant. So it is a start having a map where we can get a few trans or maybe a supreme.

I now have come to wave 15 on this map (stats for all between 1000 - 1700) and had only crap mythicals dropped. Every wave i have to rebuilt many things because they got destroyed. My best DPS Barbarian nearly gets one hit killed by Dark Elves and even worse by Kobolds. For me this map is not skipping anything to the end. For me it is a bridge.

You know what? I am seeing more and more players hacking and risking their accounts because they just can get further. For me that is no option at all. I want to play a game and feel progress. Not running in circles every single map i play.

For getting from stats aroung 1200 - 1300 to stats araound 1400 - 1700 i had to do much farming on Nightmare HC MM Survival to wave 25 on Throneroom. One run needs time around 3 - 4 hours. Meaning if i have really much time i can do 2 runs a day. (Work etc)
And theres no quarante finding a trans or some better mythical armor for me. So theres a (big) chance doing a 4 hours run and being as strong as before. Thats no fun for me.

And be honest. How many players of you got your end game gear only by yourself (without new patch / releases bugs, without joining a stronger player doing stuff for you, without buying some stuff at those insane priced shops).
Sometimes i feel like everything which is good has its roots in an /a few hacked players who made it possible to optain these baddass gears.


1) I got most of my gear by myself, although I'm nowhere near "end-game" level. I had a decent tower set and a couple decent DPS sets along with a nice Trans Guard when Aquanos came out, and unfortunately around then I was busy IRL and took an extended break.

2) I'm not denying progression is broken. Ideally, the various gaps WOULD be bridged... but what I'm saying is, this doesn't bridge the gap. This map should be harder, firstly, and the loot should be brought to about the same level as the maps equal to it in difficulty. Maybe Misty level? And then the proper maps where progression should be done should be given better loot. For instance, the lower level maps. It would be great if you could start finding high-end myths by the time you're at Ramparts / Endless Spires / Summit, but the drop rate is simply too low right now for that to be feasible.

In other words, this level shouldn't be so out of proportion to the rest... instead, fix what actually needs fixing, the fact that 2/3 of the original campaign levels are worthless, and that's why progression is broken.

Although, in regards to boss loot, I think it would be nice if all the other bosses had rewards scaled up to similar qualities, to give us a lot of end-game choices in weapons. Honestly, I'd like to see something like this,

1) CD rewards scaled up to be slightly better than Sky City rewards
2) Misty, Moraggo, Aqua, and Boss Rush rewards scaled up to be about the same as Sky City rewards
3) Alch Labs, Throne Room, Summit, and various other challenge rewards scaled up to be slightly weaker

By this, I don't mean make their damages all equal, but to make the weapons roughly equal in viability. For instance, it's perfectly reasonable for Classic Eagle Standard to be higher DPS than the Oculus of the Genie King, because one of the benefits of the Oculus is its attack pattern... but the difference shouldn't be so humongous that no one would ever use Oculus.

Items like Draconis Ignis, Big Stick, Goblin Overlord's Charge, can all be useful again.

But for a level easier than Sky City to have a reward weapon better than that from CD is an indication of poor balance IMO.

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People vastly overreacted to this, I made one farm run last night (mm) and doing one right now from wave 25 (non mm). Those happy about easy high end loot and those worried they won't be the top of the food chain anymore are dead wrong.

In both runs I didn't see an ultimate yet, but if the stat rolls are going to be like all the trans and few sups I've spotted...I'm glad Tsuda is looking into "fixing" this and all but there was nothing to fix in the first place.

More people should start practicing "live and let live".

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People vastly overreacted to this, I made one farm run last night (mm) and doing one right now from wave 25 (non mm). Those happy about easy high end loot and those worried they won't be the top of the food chain anymore are dead wrong.

In both runs I didn't see an ultimate yet, but if the stat rolls are going to be like all the trans and few sups I've spotted...I'm glad Tsuda is looking into "fixing" this and all but there was nothing to fix in the first place.

More people should start practicing "live and let live".


It has nothing to do with any "food chain." It has to do with increasingly broken progression. What Trendy has basically done is say... "okay there's no reasonable way to move forward through these multiple gaps in progression... so let's create one easy map that skips all of the gaps."

It's not about devaluing gear that exists, it's about centralizing the end-game to a single easy map. Like I said, look at Pawnshot. Why would you ever try to farm an EEC with the Pawnshot being easier to get and having better damage output? Why would you farm Aquanos when the loot from here is on roughly the same level, and the level is so much easier?

What's the point of a game when it's all about repeating one easy map for all the best stuff? If you weren't aware, it's pretty normal for even Sky City and Aqua to only yield a handful of Trans a few Sup sprinkled in here and there. Which in itself is a problem... the hardest maps really should yield Ultimates a bit more often, too.

Fix progression, don't glaze over it with poorly positioned incredible rewards.

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We're not talking about bridging a gap here, guys. We're talking about building a long enough bridge that climbs past everything, because there's very little improvement to be had once you finish farming this map.



I'm in favor of that over having no bridge at all.

And I don't really see why people are so upset that this is making it quite a bit easier. People in this game worry way too much about other peoples' gear instead of their own fun. The impression I'm getting is that people seem to think that just because they progressed a certain way that others should have to do the same thing too, and they seem to have very strong beliefs about this. This is not an MMORPG, no matter how much you want it to be. There is no reason to have to put in heavy hours farming that you do now (or before this map, rather). And it turns off a lot of people, because this game really does have a small world. I constantly run into the same people over and over again on the random public matches that I join.

I already have 3k stats on most characters, so I don't need this map. But I think it's great the way it is. It's nice to be able to do a relaxing map and still find several upgrades per run instead of a map full of flying 60 million hp meat shields that glitch through walls and having to constantly run in the same pattern from crystal to crystal alternating between boosts for 2 hours just to maybe 1 upgrade every few runs.

Again, this is not an MMORPG. Someone having uber gear is not going to affect your game in anyway. If people want to to start farming this map at the earliest available opportunity and significantly cut down on game's lifespan for themselves, then let them. Why should you care?

And even if someone newer to the game gets all their character decked out in armor from this map, that's still not going to be an instant win. There's a lot more to winning in this game than that, which is why you sometimes come across players with uber hacked gear that can't even beat the campaign maps.

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I'm in favor of that over having no bridge at all.

And I don't really see why people are so upset that this is making it quite a bit easier. People in this game worry way too much about other peoples' gear instead of their own fun. The impression I'm getting is that people seem to think that just because they progressed a certain way that others should have to do the same thing too, and they seem to have very strong beliefs about this. This is not an MMORPG, no matter how much you want it to be. There is no reason to have to put in heavy hours farming that you do now (or before this map, rather). And it turns off a lot of people, because this game really does have a small world. I constantly run into the same people over and over again on the random public matches that I join.

I already have 3k stats on most characters, so I don't need this map. But I think it's great the way it is. It's nice to be able to do a relaxing map and still find several upgrades per run instead of a map full of flying 60 million hp meat shields that glitch through walls and having to constantly run in the same pattern from crystal to crystal alternating between boosts for 2 hours just to maybe 1 upgrade every few runs.

Again, this is not an MMORPG. Someone having uber gear is not going to affect your game in anyway. If people want to to start farming this map at the earliest available opportunity and significantly cut down on game's lifespan for themselves, then let them. Why should you care?

And even if someone newer to the game gets all their character decked out in armor from this map, that's still not going to be an instant win. There's a lot more to winning in this game than that, which is why you sometimes come across players with uber hacked gear that can't even beat the campaign maps.


Because it neutralizes other game content. And if you think stats don't matter, please send me a video of you beating NM HC CD with no character with over 1k in any stat.

I'm fine with other people (including myself) getting good gear. My gear's more or less obsolete because of the break I took. But having it all come from one map is the problem... it's not a problem with people moving up, it's a problem with all the moving up happening one way.

I agree it's good to find several upgrades a run... but why is it limited PURELY to this map? Like I said before, the problem is a matter of progression. Even if it isn't an MMO, there shouldn't be one easy map to get to the best gear in the game, because the invalidates the rest of the game.

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It has nothing to do with any "food chain." It has to do with increasingly broken progression. What Trendy has basically done is say... "okay there's no reasonable way to move forward through these multiple gaps in progression... so let's create one easy map that skips all of the gaps."

It's not about devaluing gear that exists, it's about centralizing the end-game to a single easy map. Like I said, look at Pawnshot. Why would you ever try to farm an EEC with the Pawnshot being easier to get and having better damage output? Why would you farm Aquanos when the loot from here is on roughly the same level, and the level is so much easier?

What's the point of a game when it's all about repeating one easy map for all the best stuff? If you weren't aware, it's pretty normal for even Sky City and Aqua to only yield a handful of Trans a few Sup sprinkled in here and there. Which in itself is a problem... the hardest maps really should yield Ultimates a bit more often, too.

Fix progression, don't glaze over it with poorly positioned incredible rewards.


But i really see no skipping there myself. i did it till wave 20 now and found 2 trans. Rest = crap. So wheres this incredible game skipping loot?

And do you think they will change everything from the first to the last map? No. All which will happen is this map will be so hard that noone of those who havent already good gear wont reach the point of dropping better items and the wall is perfectly up again...

No offense. I dont want to make someone angry. But i think the map is good as it is, from the point of difficulty.
Then if you personally think it is too easy. then dont use this dlc pack. For others it may be a refreshing experience.

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It has nothing to do with any "food chain." It has to do with increasingly broken progression. What Trendy has basically done is say... "okay there's no reasonable way to move forward through these multiple gaps in progression... so let's create one easy map that skips all of the gaps."

It's not about devaluing gear that exists, it's about centralizing the end-game to a single easy map. Like I said, look at Pawnshot. Why would you ever try to farm an EEC with the Pawnshot being easier to get and having better damage output? Why would you farm Aquanos when the loot from here is on roughly the same level, and the level is so much easier?

What's the point of a game when it's all about repeating one easy map for all the best stuff? If you weren't aware, it's pretty normal for even Sky City and Aqua to only yield a handful of Trans a few Sup sprinkled in here and there. Which in itself is a problem... the hardest maps really should yield Ultimates a bit more often, too.

Fix progression, don't glaze over it with poorly positioned incredible rewards.


I agree with you, and didn't mean my food chain comment as a personal attack to you or anybody else, all I'm saying is, there is nothing there that will instantly make n00bz slide over CD in NMHC. As easy as the map is, expect countless hours of grinding, and then more grinding, so, nothing has changed, and in that regard, you are right, the inherent problems with progression are still there but I don't expect those to be fixed with a map and patch.

As a side note, I prefer to farm aquanos and sky because there wasn't even a pet drop there, and as I said somewhere, the satisfaction of solo farming a wrench in sky stand on it's own, I need nothing else from the game.

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Although I believe people over reacted a bit I am extremely thankful for you taking your time to give an official response and informing us that the loot will stay the same. Overall thanks for taking your time to explain to us what happened.

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Because it neutralizes other game content. And if you think stats don't matter, please send me a video of you beating NM HC CD with no character with over 1k in any stat.


I never said stats don't matter, I said they're just not an instant win. No matter how good your armor is, you're not going to get very far if you don't understand basic tower placement and how the various defenses work together.

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But i really see no skipping there myself. i did it till wave 20 now and found 2 trans. Rest = crap. So wheres this incredible game skipping loot?

And do you think they will change everything from the first to the last map? No. All which will happen is this map will be so hard that noone of those who havent already good gear wont reach the point of dropping better items and the wall is perfectly up again...

No offense. I dont want to make someone angry. But i think the map is good as it is, from the point of difficulty.
Then if you personally think it is too easy. then dont use this dlc pack. For others it may be a refreshing experience.


So you've been ripped off by the RNG... that happens on every other map too. I can't say anything about what you personally find, I can only say that based on what I've observed, and other people have said, the loot from the new map scales disproportionately high. People who have been farming this map frequently report Supreme items, at least at the rate of Aquanos/Moraggo from what I've seen.

Having this map be equal to the hardest survivals in the game is game skipping, because there's no reason to go there once you're done with this map.

And yes, I think they will consider adjusting scaling on the rest of this game. They already adjusted survivals on the rest of the game, didn't they? It doesn't take much to fix progression, just some time and effort spent to make the earlier levels easier, and raise the loot so that it scales somewhat evenly.

Saying "don't use it" still doesn't address the problem. Everyone loves it when they can make huge steps free, but that still invalidates a portion of the game, and defeats the intent of Nightmare mode... an end-game CHALLENGE. The wall needs to be fixed, but this still isn't the way to fix it, and I'm glad they realize this.

I never said stats don't matter, I said they're just not an instant win. No matter how good your armor is, you're not going to get very far if you don't understand basic tower placement and how the various defenses work together.


It's the other way around too. No matter how good your tower placement and strategy is, that's not an instant win. You're not going to get very far if you don't have the stats. So I fail to see your point... we still essentially have two requirements. One of them is achieved simply by studying other people and mimicking their strategies until you get a hang of it, the other takes progressing through the game.

And progression is broken, and has become further broken with this map...

I agree with you, and didn't mean my food chain comment as a personal attack to you or anybody else, all I'm saying is, there is nothing there that will instantly make n00bz slide over CD in NMHC. As easy as the map is, expect countless hours of grinding, and then more grinding, so, nothing has changed, and in that regard, you are right, the inherent problems with progression are still there but I don't expect those to be fixed with a map and patch.

As a side note, I prefer to farm aquanos and sky because there wasn't even a pet drop there, and as I said somewhere, the satisfaction of solo farming a wrench in sky stand on it's own, I need nothing else from the game.


I'm not saying they'll let people slide into CD in NM HC. I'm saying that, at least for gun-users, there is no point in CD in NM HC anymore, besides beating it the first time to unlock the costume if you want it, or the various achievements.

This game is designed so that people repeat maps a few times, getting better at the map (lay outs, strategies, etc) while finding better items, addressing both the aspects brought up - player skill AND equipment quality. In some cases, it's already balanced poorly, with some maps never seeing play (who actually farms Castle Armory on NM?) and other maps seeing way too much play (it takes a ridiculous amount of Moraggo/Aqua runs to get the amazing gear that everyone's after). This map breaks this concept further, because there's no point repeating a harder map when there's an easier map with equal-or-better loot.

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* Fixed Enemy Difficulty Scaling on The King's Game, additionally slightly increased the reward quality as a result of the error.

So based on this all I am reading here is... if not got x stats : player meet wall, wall meet dumb player falling for the same trendy tricks.

Besides as it stands, even though CD is supposed to be easier then aquanos based on statistical evidence (mob hp etc, see statement of Tsuda)... the fact of the matter is that CD is way harder then Aqua.

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I also think that if this map is going to be made harder, then we can definitely use another 15 DU. As far as I can tell, minion walls wont stretch far enough to wall off the crystals from 60 million hp ogres. So we're definitely going to need to spend some DU on walls and still be able to get good damage output.

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* Fixed Enemy Difficulty Scaling on The King's Game, additionally slightly increased the reward quality as a result of the error.

So based on this all I am reading here is... if not got x stats : player meet wall, wall meet dumb player falling for the same trendy tricks.

Besides as it stands, even though CD is supposed to be easier then aquanos based on statistical evidence (mob hp etc, see statement of Tsuda)... the fact of the matter is that CD is way harder then Aqua.


Never said anything about CD. I guess saying other shards maps you included that. I do not mean CD.

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Never said anything about CD. I guess saying other shards maps you included that. I do not mean CD.


"Perhaps add a Giraffe for Survival completion? Maybe even a Pet Rock if it's completed on NMHCMM ?"

So how 'bout this? ^_^

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Never said anything about CD. I guess saying other shards maps you included that. I do not mean CD.


I naturally meant sky city. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned your statement :d.

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I also think that if this map is going to be made harder, then we can definitely use another 15 DU. As far as I can tell, minion walls wont stretch far enough to wall off the crystals from 60 million hp ogres. So we're definitely going to need to spend some DU on walls and still be able to get good damage output.

I'm not sure if you know about this, but the random effect tiles have a chance of increasing the max du in the map. The du increases from 115 to 125 which seems to me atleast be reasonable.

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