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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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I dunno, something seems messed up for copter ogres. They have like 2x more HP than normal ones on KG.

Edit: http://steamcommunity.com/id/Ashursora/screenshot/956140577752885331 for normal ogres on wave 18

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Ashursora/screenshot/956140577752882108/? for copter ogres on wave 18. The hell is that? (It started at 29 mil hp, I couldn't SS it when it was running down)

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Same here, there's no real difference for me. Guess I'm not building good enough. :/

Care to share your guy's builds to a noob?

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Maybe it is just me or my build/stats, but it does not feel like the 15% made a difference at all.


It probably won't. 15% is just not enough imo :(

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Its still extremely tough to do, Im attempting it with good dps monks near each crystal and killing every ogre that comes plus boosting every chance we get, its one heck of a survival.

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The 15% was just added time to the build phased allowing you to setup better. The health and power of the ogres and shaken doesn't appear to have changed from my experience thus far. It's almost like the "reduction in difficulty" was a quick fix sham that didn't particularly help. Ether way you are limited to 700 mana on wave one. After that you have about two minutes to set up all the defenses that were anailated by ogres and try to put in new ones. Then you have to switch to a DPS character before time runs out. One slip up in tower placement or falling to a lower level can cost you the chance to switch to DPS and ultimately your chance of surviving. I am speaking of course about campaign because that is where the difficulty should be based around and survival should be incremental increases as you advance.

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Same here, there's no real difference for me. Guess I'm not building good enough. :/

Care to share your guy's builds to a noob?


My typical build uses 4 archers and a Mage as a wall, all buffed. There should be 5 of them. 2 on lower crystal and 3 on top.

Behind them is 4 harpoons facing each crystal (that's the first thing that gets built). 4 aura stacks, covering all towers and minions and buffed. That uses all DU (without the extra 10, which when I activate goes into reflect walls, I then slowly remove the harpoons and add in some walls, or reposition the harpoons to combat copters). I think that uses all MU too.

My build isn't flawless though, copters just carve it up whilst my towers nor DPS characters can't touch them due to buggy path height. I haven't been able to beat NMHC since the buff, mainly due to the painful build time and vertical size of the map. I think it's possible for me though (2k+ stats). When ddplanner updates, I'll link my setup.

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Wiped on wave 25. Duo partner decided to die at the bottom crystal, leaving me to defend two crystals. That was a horrible experience. Honestly, it's mostly just the scaling of the mobs post wave 20 that's rediculous. Copter ogres are getting to 60 mil or so hp, by roughly wave 22. My build held fine until the death, though. So, I'm torn on if the map is actually easier or not.

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60 million copter ogres is certainly not easy. :(

I can't even handle 30 million HP ogres yet, 15 million is around my max. Lets go back to the way it was before, plus 25%.

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60 million copter ogres is certainly not easy. :(

I can't even handle 30 million HP ogres yet, 15 million is around my max. Lets go back to the way it was before, plus 25%.


I'm mostly salty about how copter ogres have a little over double the HP of regular ogres. If they didn't have THAT much more HP, I'm sure I'd have an easier time going to wave 25+ on NMHCMM

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indeed for the above. the goblin copters are really whats killing this map. the copters themselves are pretty bad through out, as there is so much open area and they are firing their rockets from so far out, it is hard to know when/where they are coming (from). but the ogres they drop are consistently at 2+x the HP of the normal ogres. when wave 20 hit though, everything in the map got a roughly 60% increase, and the copters got ridiculous and the ogres they dropped were hitting 44 million HP. everything gained pretty much a 10% buff each additional wave, also.

this is by no means fulfilling the goal described in this statement:

[QUOTE]
The King's Game is meant to be difficult, but not as difficult as the previous maps. Fundamentally, the map is easier even structurally. The rewards are intended to be quite good, but not a joke (no pun intended) to get. We want players who have had trouble clearing some of the previous maps (especially the shards maps) a chance to get that extra push in gear to put them over the hill.[/QUOTE]

aquanos is still easier and provides gear on roughly the same level.

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I'm mostly salty about how copter ogres have a little over double the HP of regular ogres. If they didn't have THAT much more HP, I'm sure I'd have an easier time going to wave 25+ on NMHCMM


I've never really understood why they have that much hp over normal ogres in the first place. They are already a challenge based on the fact that they can be dropped behind your defenses and that they come paired with a copter that does pretty significant damage by itself (some of the most damage any enemy does from my experience).

Considering the copters can be shot down to take away 70% of the ogre's health, I'm guessing the design is meant to encourage us to try to shoot them down before they get near our defenses, but that doesn't work terribly well when you have to rely on defenses that don't prioritize targets and the fact that the copters fly out of range of melee targets. (The last patch supposedly made them fly lower, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.)

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I've never really understood why they have that much hp over normal ogres in the first place. They are already a challenge based on the fact that they can be dropped behind your defenses and that they come paired with a copter that does pretty significant damage by itself (some of the most damage any enemy does from my experience).

Considering the copters can be shot down to take away 70% of the ogre's health, I'm guessing the design is meant to encourage us to try to shoot them down before they get near our defenses, but that doesn't work terribly well when you have to rely on defenses that don't prioritize targets and the fact that the copters fly out of range of melee targets. (The last patch supposedly made them fly lower, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.)


I'm pretty sure they're supposed to have like, what, 25% more? Not friggen 200%. I haven't noticed the flying lower either.

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Considering the copters can be shot down to take away 70% of the ogre's health, I'm guessing the design is meant to encourage us to try to shoot them down before they get near our defenses, but that doesn't work terribly well when you have to rely on defenses that don't prioritize targets and the fact that the copters fly out of range of melee targets. (The last patch supposedly made them fly lower, but I haven't seen any evidence of that.)


It's one of those ideas that sounds good on paper, but doesn't work well in practice when you have swarms of them at each crystal and normal ogres that are constantly taking swings at you and all the other crap going on.

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Did you play the game back then when nightmare came to be?? From you comments one can guess that probably not because spiders where there right from the start, in case you didn't know.

And we didn't have Barbs or EVs or Summs or Jesters. Oh, and full survival runs took 10+ hours because the later waves were HUGE.

I'm not arguing in favor of elitists, but this "we have it harder" argument coming from causal players is as baseless as they come.


I put the spiders in the list by mistake but I have been playing since well before Shards. I remember when auras lasted about 30 seconds without constant repair. Back when a squire could solo everything and everyone else was useless except for a huntress for DPS. 10 hours? Please. I ran THIRTY hour survival sessions for set of girrafes. I don't want to hear about long waves. (Now I sound like my grandpa!)

Anyway, I am in no way a casual player, and I stand my by statement. Farming for gear with the initial Shards release, complete with the MASSIVE tower boosts and lack of current monsters was MUCH easier than it is today. The new character classes help, but in no way make Nightmare mode as it stands now easier than when it was first released.

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I dunno, something seems messed up for copter ogres. They have like 2x more HP than normal ones on KG.


It was like this for the initial release too. I took notes on Ogre health when the "Too easy" screaming started and was confused at first because I kept getting very different numbers.

But each wave the copter orges had just a bit under or over 2x the normal orge health.

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I have a policy with new trendy releases. Wait two weeks, then attempt the map after its been balanced properly, and avoid the rage that happens in-between.

That being said the copter-ogres having higher HP than standard ones makes absolutely no sense. Any flying machine (such as copters) needs to balance fuel consumption against load weight; the more weight, the shorter the time in the air. Thus it makes sense for copter-ogres to be lightweight ogres; less weight means less muscle mass means less HP/damage. Of course its a fantasy setting, so 'magic' could explain the discrepency, except copters are decidely not 'magic' they are steampunk, and thus pseudo technology based, and should loosely adhere to such constrictions.

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Copter ogres hp starts higher and escalates a lot faster than standard ogres, this is not limited to King's.

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I have a policy with new trendy releases. Wait two weeks, then attempt the map after its been balanced properly, and avoid the rage that happens in-between.

That being said the copter-ogres having higher HP than standard ones makes absolutely no sense. Any flying machine (such as copters) needs to balance fuel consumption against load weight; the more weight, the shorter the time in the air. Thus it makes sense for copter-ogres to be lightweight ogres; less weight means less muscle mass means less HP/damage. Of course its a fantasy setting, so 'magic' could explain the discrepency, except copters are decidely not 'magic' they are steampunk, and thus pseudo technology based, and should loosely adhere to such constrictions.


Meanwhile, the ogres don't appear to be any different from other ogres. It's not like they get more physically buffed, something magical must change them, I don't see how that'd effect the weight of any of the monsters.

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Issues with the current map:

1. Copters flying so high no defenses shoot them. Wasn't copter height supposed to be reduced like 3 patches ago? Should have been caught with a little play testing, but that would require a company that actually DOES play test.

2. Not enough DUs. I think starting with 125 and a bonus to 135 would be about right. As it is now we barely have enough DUs and MUs to wall off all the choke points, let alone actually get enough DPS on the lines to kill anything.

3. No difference in difficulty between this and... well, anything else. It doesn't bug me because it's hard, it bugs me because it's SUPPOSED to be easier than other options. Hey Trendy! I bet this map DOES seem pretty easy with 4 people wearing perfect Ultimate gear. Problem is, you never TEST under the conditions of the players you literally SAY you're trying to help. You test with amazing gear, say it's easy for you, and then assume everyone clawing for their first decent Transcendent set will also think it's easy.

Look, if you want this one to be just as hard as everything else, fine. I get it. You have an entire game created to keep the top 1% of players happy with the "challenge" and tell the bottom 99% they can go thumb themselves. This is just one more map that we can't do, and that's nothing new. You don't want to have ONE F-ING MAP that helps people get through the game easier and like twenty options for all the people that don't need help anymore, because that ratio is just way out of whack. You want to make sure ALL the maps only cater to people who don't need help, and that's your choice.

But DON'T make a map that's just as hard (and don't kid yourselves, this is no easier than anything else you've released) and then act like you're doing us some big favor. You gave up on us long ago, I just wish you'd be honest about it.

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I had that same issue with copters today. Was playing with someone and the copters would hover higher than I could see, even on maximum view distance. Then they spammed missiles down on us and killed everyone from too high to do anything about.

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I just played with a guy who had the best build for the map and it just used auras by the ramps before the floor to each crystal.

They went though the maps and hit them coming up, the bottom floor was basically covered, you only had to watch out for ogres!
Of course tho, he had 3000 aura stats.

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I had that same issue with copters today. Was playing with someone and the copters would hover higher than I could see, even on maximum view distance. Then they spammed missiles down on us and killed everyone from too high to do anything about.


SEE this post I am telling trendy this! Dozens and dozens if not hundreds of posts are telling Trendy this!

Catch on guys these fly boys are busted to hell and NEED some very serious re working on them!

They are grossly and immensely overpowered!

They deliver a ridiculous cargo and are just plain annoying!

I can deal with all of that crud.

What bugs the hell out of me is when they hang in orbit were not even a buffed DST or a tornado jumping barb with a monkey can reach them!

This becomes totally unfair and needs to be fixed!

No ones perfect I am not trying to rag on you Trendy.

This has to stop though.

The copters hang in orbit vaporizing everything
thus ruining the game completely at times.

If all else fails remove them from the game except for sky city and CD.
Re balance them fix what ever needs fixing then reincorporate them into the games other levels.

Trendy you do a fine job over all far better than most game companies for that matter.

That being said these atomic powered nit wits of yours need some VERY serious work done on them.

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quick suggestion for copters for trendy:

why not just remove their rockets? flares are fine. the giant *** ogre they carry is fine. the rockets are the dangerous part when they choose to be off range. they can even spam flares all they like, let them do that.

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