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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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[QUOTE]Also getting some serious flashbacks from early Dundef when we had like 5-6 patches a week rubberbanding the game between playable and broken. Sorry if I sound a bit irritated, its because I am.

I guess I'll just check back sometime next week to see how the game has settled out by revision G[/QUOTE]

Same, hopefully they fix his broken map and buff the difficulty substantially. That or significantly nerf the drops. It is way out of hand.

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You know, another thing I think is getting missed. People who geared up before spiders/sharks/copters probably have no idea what it's like to break into myth/trans nowdays.

Remember that to do survival, you have to beat campaign. Once they unlocked it, I doubt they ever went back with and tried to killbosses on nightmare with low end myth gear.

I bet a good number of them never beat those bosses with the new monsters, even with current gear. I know I don't do campaign on NM very often. The timer makes it annoying, even if I can handle the bosses now.

I'm guessing a lot of complainers simply have no idea what it's like for new players to progress. It's VASTLY harder now, and when someone says "I did it, why can't you?" it makes me want to say, no, you didn't. Try starting over with 70's in godly gear and see how long it takes you to get 3.5k stats. Without all the survival levels being already unlocked too!


This is pretty much what i think about progressing nowadays.

Also, the 80% of early top-end players were carried by hackers that were capable of breaking the wall and get the phat loot, some of them still remains as top players. This is still happening, btw.

If the game its sometimes balanced around hacks, its because its the way its always been.

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I don't understand, doesn't Trendy playtest their own game? Even a little bit?

I only started in June, but have clocked 250 hours, and my first real taste of how terrible this game's development was came of course with Goblin Copters. What did you do? Test with Level 90s in Ultimate armor and say it was good? Even with the subsequent nerfs it took four updates for Goblin Copters to not completely break Nightmare mode beyond unplayability.

My armor, which I bought from other players and poured millions of mana into upgrades, gives me the important stats at 1.5k. I've beaten all but Ramparts and Summit on Nightmare as far as the main campaign goes, and I frequently grind survival on Alchemical Lab and Armory for mana.

Never once have I seen a piece of Mythical armor that wasn't trash. So if you DON'T buy 1.5k armor from other players, you can't even beat these levels. Then even when you can beat these levels, you have zero chance of finding something to help you progress further than that.

I haven't found a green piece of armor since I graduated from Godly. Seriously?

I didn't get to play the new map before the alterations, so I can't say how hard or easy it was. But to see Trendy go from "this is a little too easy" to "This is another unplayable map for anybody who hasn't been playing since 2011" is nauseating. Did nobody at Trendy play the map in Mythical? In 500 stat armor? Or 1000 stat armor? Did nobody TRY the level and say "Wow, I can't beat this, and I MADE it. Maybe I should make some alterations"?

I hate how this game goes from being the most fun you've ever had to the most frustrating thing on Steam once you hit level 74.

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I'm guessing a lot of complainers simply have no idea what it's like for new players to progress. It's VASTLY harder now, and when someone says "I did it, why can't you?" it makes me want to say, no, you didn't. Try starting over with 70's in godly gear and see how long it takes you to get 3.5k stats. Without all the survival levels being already unlocked too!


I was only able to get the stats I have now is because I was lucky enough to find someone to beat the shards bosses for me. They are nearly imposible on nm when you don't have a super well off dps character. You can get to the boss with your towers stats less than 2k, but once you get to the boss. You flat out die.

And you can't get the pets or gear to beat them without hutning for it first, or paying billions of billions of mana you don't have.

If you're one of the unlucky ones to have someone good enough to help you beat the boss, you do hit a wall. I only say this becuase it was like this for me.

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If this map is intended to help break into NM then they need to dial back the difficulty (15% was mentioned somewhere and that might do it) and they only need to have Trans drops really, that would make the other maps doable and we can get Supreme and ultimate there (though the drop rate should be increased a bit).

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My armor, which I bought from other players and poured millions of mana into upgrades, gives me the important stats at 1.5k. I've beaten all but Ramparts and Summit on Nightmare as far as the main campaign goes, and I frequently grind survival on Alchemical Lab and Armory for mana.

Never once have I seen a piece of Mythical armor that wasn't trash. So if you DON'T buy 1.5k armor from other players, you can't even beat these levels. Then even when you can beat these levels, you have zero chance of finding something to help you progress further than that.



This is simply incorrect. I say that from experience. Magus Quarters NM can be done in Godly armor, and you can break into NM using Magus Quarters Survival. Oh and this was done after Goblin Copters were added.

Is it the best way? No. Is progression still broken? Yes. Is buying armor or King's Game the only ways to break into NM. Nope. There are other ways. In general (and not everyone), but most people, just want the easiest way.

Now that King's Game is out, people seem to be under the impression that it is the only way to break into NM now. It's just not true. It's the easiest, yes. The only? Nope.

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I don't understand, doesn't Trendy playtest their own game? Even a little bit?

I only started in June, but have clocked 250 hours, and my first real taste of how terrible this game's development was came of course with Goblin Copters. What did you do? Test with Level 90s in Ultimate armor and say it was good? Even with the subsequent nerfs it took four updates for Goblin Copters to not completely break Nightmare mode beyond unplayability.

My armor, which I bought from other players and poured millions of mana into upgrades, gives me the important stats at 1.5k. I've beaten all but Ramparts and Summit on Nightmare as far as the main campaign goes, and I frequently grind survival on Alchemical Lab and Armory for mana.

Never once have I seen a piece of Mythical armor that wasn't trash. So if you DON'T buy 1.5k armor from other players, you can't even beat these levels. Then even when you can beat these levels, you have zero chance of finding something to help you progress further than that.

I haven't found a green piece of armor since I graduated from Godly. Seriously?

I didn't get to play the new map before the alterations, so I can't say how hard or easy it was. But to see Trendy go from "this is a little too easy" to "This is another unplayable map for anybody who hasn't been playing since 2011" is nauseating. Did nobody at Trendy play the map in Mythical? In 500 stat armor? Or 1000 stat armor? Did nobody TRY the level and say "Wow, I can't beat this, and I MADE it. Maybe I should make some alterations"?

I hate how this game goes from being the most fun you've ever had to the most frustrating thing on Steam once you hit level 74.


I progressed with ES first wave to get the loot from the chests (about 50-75 times I think) then Magus quarters, now I'm on Throne room, so it is possible to progress, just very very slowly (around 200-250 hours for me). Copters came out about halfway through my ES grinding.

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I don't understand, doesn't Trendy playtest their own game? Even a little bit?

I only started in June, but have clocked 250 hours, and my first real taste of how terrible this game's development was came of course with Goblin Copters. What did you do? Test with Level 90s in Ultimate armor and say it was good? Even with the subsequent nerfs it took four updates for Goblin Copters to not completely break Nightmare mode beyond unplayability.


Just watch the last jester livestream and you know whats up.
http://de.twitch.tv/trendyent/b/327802571
A guy named dani played with following gear:



Thats over 20.000 points combined with just three myth armor pieces.
They probably test with gear like that and assume everyone can get that kind of armor =D

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This is simply incorrect. I say that from experience. Magus Quarters NM can be done in Godly armor, and you can break into NM using Magus Quarters Survival. Oh and this was done after Goblin Copters were added.

Is it the best way? No. Is progression still broken? Yes. Is buying armor or King's Game the only ways to break into NM. Nope. There are other ways. In general (and not everyone), but most people, just want the easiest way.

Now that King's Game is out, people seem to be under the impression that it is the only way to break into NM now. It's just not true. It's the easiest, yes. The only? Nope.


I beat Deeper Well through Magus Quarters in Godly as well, pre-copters. Then I stopped. I couldn't beat the Demon Lord no matter how hard I tried or how clever I played. Even with low-grade mythical I needed another person's help. And beating the first three maps in Godly didn't yield a single piece of Mythical armor.

Beating three maps under very difficult condition with no reward and no means to progress, to me, is very clear indication that you NEED to buy armor from other players. How can you hero a Nightmare Demon Lord with a Godly weapon? Hero Damage is already decreased in Nightmare. You chip away like a harsh wind on a marble block. It just can't be done.

I'm not saying you can't beat ANY MAPS without buying armor, but you can't beat many. Especially past the first tier of maps.

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Just watch the last jester livestream and you know whats up.
http://de.twitch.tv/trendyent/b/327802571
A guy named dani played with following gear:



Thats over 20.000 points combined with just three myth armor pieces.
They probably test with gear like that and assume everyone can get that kind of armor =D


Also, yeah, that's a friggin joke. Maybe if our armor wasn't dropping with ridiculous negative resistances and it was actually possible to acquire armor like that through natural gameplay it would be valid to test that way. Testing anything in more than 2k armor is like they're using hammers and we're using feathers.

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You know, another thing I think is getting missed. People who geared up before spiders/sharks/copters probably have no idea what it's like to break into myth/trans nowdays.

Remember that to do survival, you have to beat campaign. Once they unlocked it, I doubt they ever went back with and tried to killbosses on nightmare with low end myth gear.

I bet a good number of them never beat those bosses with the new monsters, even with current gear. I know I don't do campaign on NM very often. The timer makes it annoying, even if I can handle the bosses now.

I'm guessing a lot of complainers simply have no idea what it's like for new players to progress. It's VASTLY harder now, and when someone says "I did it, why can't you?" it makes me want to say, no, you didn't. Try starting over with 70's in godly gear and see how long it takes you to get 3.5k stats. Without all the survival levels being already unlocked too!



The difference now from when I started is that you have to deal with those new enemies, but you also have classes that make the game MUCH MUCH, MUCH freaking easier. Try building without Ev walls and buff beams or Summoner minions. Suddenly, insane just got a whole lot harder! Nothing has changed, it has ALWAYS been a horrible struggle to break into NM, that's where the challenge comes into it at. If you don't want that much of a challenge, that' is why open mode is there. You can bypass the struggle to get good gear and easily get high end gear and build any map you want . . .but then it isn't fun because you have nothing to do when you are handed end game gear.

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This is simply incorrect. I say that from experience. Magus Quarters NM can be done in Godly armor, and you can break into NM using Magus Quarters Survival. Oh and this was done after Goblin Copters were added.

Is it the best way? No. Is progression still broken? Yes. Is buying armor or King's Game the only ways to break into NM. Nope. There are other ways. In general (and not everyone), but most people, just want the easiest way.

Now that King's Game is out, people seem to be under the impression that it is the only way to break into NM now. It's just not true. It's the easiest, yes. The only? Nope.


This. I'm worried because I'm sure most of the people who are ok with it are just still playing the game and not instantly rushing to the forums, so right now we've got a seemingly lopsided disagreement.

Really though, it just boggles me. Why are people treating this added map, that changed nothing about every other bit of the game, as if it being difficult affects every other bit of the game.

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Just watch the last jester livestream and you know whats up.
http://de.twitch.tv/trendyent/b/327802571
A guy named dani played with following gear:



Thats over 20.000 points combined with just three myth armor pieces.
They probably test with gear like that and assume everyone can get that kind of armor =D


full 90 res with level 1 gear, awesome =\

this is gonna sound condescending to all hell but, how do you call it beta testing when you're generating gear that can't even spawn?

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full 90 res with level 1 gear, awesome =\

this is gonna sound condescending to all hell but, how do you call it beta testing when you're generating gear that can't even spawn?




Having watched the live stream from that particular event, I can say that that was on open and Dani crushed the devs horribly. Not to mention that when Hitmonchan was scrolling over the stats, it was obvious the gear came from DDDK shenanigans. Basically, no that is not the gear they use for testing, just PvP stomping devs

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I still can't comprehend why it is so important to be better than other players in this game. Part of the reason this map got to be so difficult all of a sudden is because the "elite" players complained that it was so easy, the "normal" players could obtain their almighty gear.
Anyway, I played this map with my friends when it came out. It was fun, rewarding and it felt good to pass it. It was perhaps a bit too easy for the exp and the drops we got. Of course we did stumble upon an all towers fully upgraded tile early on. We went back to play it today because I was hoping to farm a solid monk DPS weapon. We switched the builds that we each had done(top switched with bottom) so that I would get MVP and therefore better loot. We failed the first wave. After probably 5 more failed attempts on the first or second wave, the frustration was too much. This map wasn't fun anymore; it was just plain out impossible for us. We are geared strong enough for aquanos NMHC and we couldnt pass this "bonus" map? This map was meant to be a bridge and it feels made us feel like we need to invest atleast 1000 hours more into the game( to gear up)just to complete this on campaign, let alone on survival.

The reasons this map is too hard:
- the ogres on wave one have 3M+ health(goblin copter ogres I think have 8 or 9M) and seem to move way too fast for a wave that provides 2 minutes and 700 mana to build for it. And you can't keep your builders out because the ogre might just one shot them.
- the goblin copters have rapid fire, plenty of health, and stay out of range of your defenses. This makes them far more threatening then they should be after the patch that should've made them weaker.
- ninjas move so fast that defenses struggle to kill them. Then as mentioned above, your builder is dead if he is still out.
- it takes numerous DU to use buff beams at all the important chokes. I lose about 20-30 DU on buffs alone. Perhaps I could be more efficient but I can't see where since it is too easy to let your defenses get overwhelmed if you combine choke points. This leaves me with roughly 85-95 DU and 115 MU to complete the build. Of course there are so few units that I find myself having two archers and a Mage to deal with a choke because I ran out of time to get other things set there. Then the buffs to down when one archer dies...

And it's not just nightmare that is difficult. We tried insane hard core... The ogres seemed to reach through defenses and then some to hit the crystal. A few times, the crystal was attacked by seemingly nothing, then the defenses start falling and then you discover a spider or even a ninja is actuall right there. Needless to say, we failed that too. I guess that having towers DPS at like 150k damage isn't good enough to beat insane. Trans armor isn't what it used to be...

Overall, I am very disappointed by what happened here. A fun map that made people want to play the game was turned into your worst nightmare. It's like the "bridge" has not only broken beyond repair, but has fallen into the rapids below. Anyone on that bridge that was just about to crack into nightmare were swept away. It's heartbreaking to see such a drastic change. All I can say is that the pawn shot just got much more valuable becuase there may not be more than like 20 more on the market after this. It feels like I have hit a brick wall at 1000 mph. So close to getting into the more affluent side of the game, but instead my hopes just went splat.

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No one seems to have noticed this, so I have to say it: you know what King's 7.40 reminded me of? Levels 0-70, that's what. Remember when you used to find upgrades every couple of runs of a difficult-but-manageable campaign map? That's what we had here. Shards broke that pretty badly, making upgrades absurdly rare even on Survival, but we got to glimpse it again for a day. Someone in 1k gear could run King's Insane HC and end up with 1.1k gear! If you had 1.5k, you could beat Insane Survival and bootstrap yourself to perhaps 1.65k or 1.7k! For 2k and up, there was NMHCMM so you could hit 2.25k! It was almost like you didn't have to rely on the few people who were able to farm NM Mistymire back when it only had spiders. The temporarily-free DLC also reminded me of those glorious times. But now a bunch of butthurt people who got their gear when it was reasonably difficult have ruined it again.

My suggestion for fixing it? Take The King's Game back to where it was pre-patch, knock off the random crappy Ultimate drops (I saw one Ultimate Sicarius with multiple -300 stats) and buff the loot quality on the tougher maps like Karathiki, Moraggo, Sky City, and Palantir. If you need +400 to all relevant stats per piece of armor to beat the map, it should drop at least a few pieces per late wave that have +410. Take it from an early adopter with a bunch of early-adopter friends (I believe I know one of the first people to beat the Ancient Dragon on Insane back when everyone wanted Godly Enchanted Pristine armor)--harder is not necessarily better.


A thousand times this.

IF you guys want to see real change, don't buy any more DLC, don't buy their new game. We'll see how they react when only the top 2% are buying DLC.

Please just put the map back the way it was.

also lol @ the developers not responding to anyone saying the map is hard now. That should tell you who they care about.

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The enemies used to crawl in speed but it worked for this map.

Now they are moving super fast passing straight through an Electric,Ensnare,Strength Drain aura stack.

I am seeing enemies actually passing through the Aura stack at full health with 2.6k stat fireballs and a row of 2.9k minions on a 3 star buff shooting at them! and crushing the crystal or attacking me.

The ogres are crushing everything. Hell the Dews are tearing through defenses like they are made of paper.
A Dew under Buffed 2.5k aura stack VS 2k 5du wall all at 3 stars =destroyed wall! On insane!
enemies are moving to fast for my defenses to kill them.

Pure strategy is totally boned by the speed and power increase.
Since I can NOT add dps on these creeps they just walk through everything!

I am around 2.5k stats for most of my build team.

The Summoner is getting real close to 3k minion attack and I am getting owned on insane survival!

Totally vaporized on Pure strategy!

The layout of this map makes the current speed and difficulty of the enemies destroy the map!

Trying other build layouts and upping my EV walls will help but it is just a band aid not a fix.

The enemies need to be slowed the hell down on this map!

The original crawl was to slow but they are now at least 5-10 times as fast and only the best of players can handle them.

Before the buff to difficulty that copter that hangs in orbit spamming missiles was doing 8k times 2 to my barb.

He has 90% resists on both physical and fire which means pre power up they are firing a constant barrage of 80k missiles!

The power of the rockets must be out of control by now.

The map has become a very bad joke!

I for one am NOT laughing!

The map was super easy now it is grossly over powered and broken to hell!

Please keep working on it I am sure you will be able to find a balance for the map.

Please fix that orbiting copter even if you need to delete that one to fix it.

Orbiting out of range blowing everything up is NOT fair!

At this point this map is no damn fun to me and many others!

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also lol @ the developers not responding to anyone saying the map is hard now. That should tell you who they care about.
Yeah I'm sure they love working past midnight.


The map is still possible if you have the right stats and the right build.

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The difference now from when I started is that you have to deal with those new enemies, but you also have classes that make the game MUCH MUCH, MUCH freaking easier. Try building without Ev walls and buff beams or Summoner minions. Suddenly, insane just got a whole lot harder!


The EV and Summoner do not even come close to making up for the increased difficulty of all the new enemies in NM.

You can't possibly be saying that NM with no spiders, djinn, sharks and copters, but also no Summoner or EV is HARDER than what we have now?

I stand by my argument that progressing now is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than it was before all the new enemies. The maps got significantly harder, require much higher stats, but the rewards have not gotten any better, making it much more difficult to advance.

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I still can't comprehend why it is so important to be better than other players in this game. Part of the reason this map got to be so difficult all of a sudden is because the "elite" players complained that it was so easy, the "normal" players could obtain their almighty gear.


It's disgusting, but easy to comprehend, it's a reflection of how those people carry on with their lives, they are either too miserable and having high end gear in a game, that they can bluff with in front of a bunch of strangers on the internet is the only important thing on their lives, or they are spoiled brats who are used to have it all and having high end gear in a game, they can bluff with in front of a bunch of strangers on the internet is the most important thing on their lives.

As I said, it's a filthy behavior to ruin others' fun because you feel threatened in your feeble ego, but it can be expected of some, specially those suffering from arrested development.

On a related matter, Trendy really went over the board with the difficulty buff, the thing about ogres, speed, reach and endurance, that is surprising to newer players, is what you see on later waves of a high level map survival run.

The only difference is that in there by the time you face OP ogres you have all your defenses in place and buffed to the max, while in this map people are struggling to build anything with the allotted time and mana.

A thousand times this.

IF you guys want to see real change, don't buy any more DLC, don't buy their new game. We'll see how they react when only the top 2% are buying DLC.

Please just put the map back the way it was.

also lol @ the developers not responding to anyone saying the map is hard now. That should tell you who they care about.



Trendy has been cool so far, not perfect by any means, nothing is, but it's easy to love a community focused company, even then, this entire happening has me scratching my head still, I can't understand Trendy's approach, and can not feel but disconcerted at a certain sector of the community.

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I have watched this thread from the start...watched as a select few very passionately argue about how it should be more difficult because of the good loot or have the loot nerfed. I cant believe I read anyone wanting loot quality nerfed...from complaint threads about loot quality and drop rate to how we need higher quantities dropped due to the "economy" of the game inflating due to either mana hacking or the new tokens or whatever the cause. And for some reason we needed a difficulty buff on one map? I have a 3k squire, around 2k ev, 2.8k summoner and around a 2k aura monk. I play with friends with even higher stats typically. I just got home and was excited to run the new map again before the patch...hoping maybe to collect a set of trans so more than just my squire had a full set. Instead of being excited to play Im greeted by my friends with rage about it already being buffed. So to those who said it "needed" to be buffed because it allowed skipping straight to the end...your an idiot. I have good stats and Im still no where near the end. All that it was doing was allowing skipping months and months of pointless farming for a usable piece here and there. This map was fun and easy. Maybe alot of ppl play for the farming...I honestly play for the ppl, the conversations...the goofing around. The fun stuff. This was a breath of fresh air. How long do you honestly think ppl will be satisfied with hoping to get 3 more pieces of armor just to get 1 hero to have a matching set of trans? The drop rate is ridiculous and if my friends are having difficulty with this map now...new players....sry might as well wait till you do have 3-4k stats. Im highly disappointed. It may be a good thing Trendy decided to do this now...had it happened before Id already purchased every dlc I may have seen that it was going to take a yr to attempt cd nmhc, after months and months of farming. Ive already been getting bored of the whole build a map, pray for good drops....repeat. So bored I just started collecting cool looking stuff and cubes. K tavern looks cool...what now? Keep farming til I can do cd nm, or talay I guess. Or get bored and go back to cod. Absolutely ridiculous. Thank you for the breath of fresh air...for 36 hrs. Wonder how many will quit now after we saw for a moment a break from what so many have complained about..... It was a really easy map...but even to get to my stats most ppl get help from friends...gifted armor, weps or they build for you to help you farm. This was just a fun less aggravating way of getting trans armor and ult weapons. I ran survival to wave 26 a few times...probably got 8 pieces of trans armor...of course spread across the different materials..no ultimate or sup armor and a few worthless ult and trans weps. Thank you to the few who were the biggest whiners Ive ever seen...You just added months of build and repeat for nothing...on a different map of course since this one got the sh*t buffed out of it. Good stuff. On the upside....i wont be using sick time at work to get home just to play anymore, or will I be anxious to get home to run this. Nothing to be excited about...just the same rinse and repeat...absolutely amazing. Very disappointing. If my friends are having difficulty and this map was intended to help newer players...Trendy you just pissed off alot of new customers. After all you are a business and the ultimate goal you had with this map...you just went the complete opposite direction.

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The EV and Summoner do not even come close to making up for the increased difficulty of all the new enemies in NM.

You can't possibly be saying that NM with no spiders, djinn, sharks and copters, but also no Summoner or EV is HARDER than what we have now?

I stand by my argument that progressing now is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than it was before all the new enemies. The maps got significantly harder, require much higher stats, but the rewards have not gotten any better, making it much more difficult to advance.


Sorry, but effectively doubling the amount of DU you can spend on towers makes this game MUCH MUCH MUCH easier then before shards came out. If it doesn't, then you're doing something wrong.

Reading through this thread, it seems there are a lot of people who don't want to take the time to work on their builds and would rather ROLFSTOMP though content and get free loots. The sad part is the same people would still be losing NM maps with 3k gear because of their unwillingness to work on their builds. Ah well, I guess that's the way of the world.

Keep up the good work Trendy!

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The amount of hypocrisy in this thread is ridiculous. You've got players with lower stats crying about players with higher stats crying all the while acting like they're not crying just as badly themselves. Now I can understand the frustrations of those with lower stats and I do think they took the buff too far but it was clear that the map was not working as intended. The campaign was about as hard as insane glitter yet the rewards were on par with the best weapons in the game and it gave a crazy amount of xp and a nice amount of mana on top of that. Survival was easier than any of the shards maps or harder new maps yet it had equal if not better and a much higher quantity of drops.

Ideally I think the difficulty should be put somewhere between where it started and where it's at now with the drops possibly scaled back just a tad so that it can be the bridge it was meant to be. By that I mean it should help players to progress towards the high stat range and prepare them to go after the best gear in the harder survivals, it should not simply allow them to jump straight to that level.

Now Trendy deserves a lot of blame for releasing a map that wasn't functioning properly and the way that they handled the response but given a little time I believe they will get it in tune to a point where both sides will be happy. I think everyone just needs to have a little patience and stop all of the petty bickering and name calling. Don't let one screw up wreck the community.

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