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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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Please point me where I stated that ? Nor is anything given to me for free, I still payed for the game just as you, as did I play the game just as you. You just think because you spend more time you are entitled to better rewards? Isn't the case, your reward for spending more time is having had more fun then me. If that isn't enough, maybe replace this with something where you can gain money. It'll be better in the long run.


It isn't that I think I "deserve" better rewards because I spent more time, its just that that is what good game design does. If you can get the best rewards easily without much time invested, then the people who DO invest a lot of time into the game will quickly run out of things to do and quit.

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A map that requires tier 1 gear to beat shouldn't drop tier 5 gear just as or more often then a map that requires tier 4 gear to beat. That just doesn't make sense. And if you just don't have the time to invest into an activity, well that sucks for you. Doesn't mean you deserve to have everything given to you for free.


See thats the problem with this game, to beat act 1 you need gear from act 2 ever since nightmare was introduced.

The original campaign was good progression, you could skip easy and go straight for medium or hard if you had a decent team.

Now, that aside, you've got certain individuals who have completed content at time of unlock and got good loot, now, said good loot is still there, but new players have to work 4x as hard to unlock it due to new monsters, the gear progression is broken, the new map is NOT A NEW EXCEPTION, those who have good gear will says its easy due to it is easy, TO THEM.

I dont know for sure if good loot was dropping far to easy in early waves of NMHC on kings game, i only got to play 1 game of insane HC campaign and nothing good dropped even the rewards were utter junk, i tried to step up today and play nightmare and i got curb stomped.

This map was made for progression, ok it was a little broken pre-patch but it let everyone play it fairly, you didnt need 2k+ stats to play NM HC, but you sure as hell do now.

And just to clarify, this map has its own niche, like jungle and cliffs, there bonus fun maps that have their own niche difficulty. what happened hear was just plain stupid.

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See thats the problem with this game, to beat act 1 you need gear from act 2 ever since nightmare was introduced.

The original campaign was good progression, you could skip easy and go straight for medium or hard if you had a decent team.

Now, that aside, you've got certain individuals who have completed content at time of unlock and got good loot, now, said good loot is still there, but new players have to work 4x as hard to unlock it due to new monsters, the gear progression is broken, the new map is NOT A NEW EXCEPTION, those who have good gear will says its easy due to it is easy, TO THEM.

I dont know for sure if good loot was dropping far to easy in early waves of NMHC on kings game, i only got to play 1 game of insane HC campaign and nothing good dropped even the rewards were utter junk, i tried to step up today and play nightmare and i got curb stomped.

This map was made for progression, ok it was a little broken pre-patch but it let everyone play it fairly, you didnt need 2k+ stats to play NM HC, but you sure as hell do now.

And just to clarify, this map has its own niche, like jungle and cliffs, there bonus fun maps that have their own niche difficulty. what happened hear was just plain stupid.


I agree that progression in this game is broken, I just think this map was a poorly designed fix that did not solve the actual problems.

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Multiple 30mil HP Ogres moving at the speed of light. Those aren't even the copter ogres.

It honestly isn't that bad if you have end game gear though.


To be honest the ogres didn't seem to be the real problem we had as they just stand at the wall like big dumb idiots. Worst thing I found was mages behind gas traps chain casting fireballs(which in our build are only the lightning immune ones) and copters on top level able to shoot rockets down to bottem crystal making it a pain to repair and not die.

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Well, while TE is good at a lot of things, hitting the "sweet spot" never really was their biggest strength.
RNG and progression has been broken forever (although they claim RNG is just fine), balance of characters is way off and sadly the balance of the different towers is off aswell (so many useless towers in endgame).
Not enough DU for some maps, not enough build time for others...
Enemies are either overpowered or a non-thread.
Countless weapons that are just no good, compared to others.


Why is this happening, you might ask?
Balancing takes A LOT of time, time that TE for some reason doesnt want to invest.

The point that im making, the whole discussion will lead to nothing that everyone is happy with.
People who "worked" their way up to the hardest maps and challenges in the game, through all the broken progression and horrible RNG, for apperent reasons dont want everyone just walking around in 3k gear.
All the others are now screaming that they want their beloved loot map back and rightfully so, but this wont magically correct all the other issues this game has.
To be fair though, you might not want it handed to you after all, because it is going to cut off a BIG chunk of playtime (may it be a grind or not).
Its the missing "sweet spot" that this game so desperately needs, but will never get it.


I dont really care about the loot on this map, 99% of the ulti and sup stuff is useless weapons anyways, but pre patch this map was a nice playground for the jester and a way to play and level other chars aswell, without being stressed to the max all the time.
Now it is on par with all the other late maps, no more mr nice guy ;)
For me at least, they have taken away the funfactor this map had.
Is a 15% nerf enough to make this map enjoyable again? probably not!

I really feel bad for all the people who were happy to finally get some good loot without sweating bullets.

To the DEVs:
If youre planning to make a sequel, which i assume you do, how about making a slider option to adjust the difficuly more streamlined?
Start of with 0% difficulty, which includes all the enemies but not buffed to the max and work your way up to 100%?
Then atleast everyone can have their fun, doesnt matter how good their gear is.

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It isn't that I think I "deserve" better rewards because I spent more time, its just that that is what good game design does. If you can get the best rewards easily without much time invested, then the people who DO invest a lot of time into the game will quickly run out of things to do and quit.


Why is that good design? It is nothing else but getting an excel sheet and every time you prune the lawn i'll add +1 in it. Once you got a 10 in it, i'll let you prune my bushes. When you got +50, i'll let you prune my trees, when you got + 150 i'll let you prune my garden and when you got + 1000000000 you are the pruning master. Since that is exactly what this game actually does. It just increases some numbers in a database. Nothing else.

But like I said, I don't mind for it being present, but then don't limit content (difficult or easy) based on these arbitrary numbers. Nor will I get it for free, I'll be spending time just as well as you within the game, you're just getting more because your spending more time that is all. but i'm not prohibited from playing, and if I want to and if I put in the time i'll be able to get to those numbers as well. but i'm not goaded into it, i'll do it only when I find that to be rewarding and fun. And is that not what a cash cow is supposed to be? Grinding without feeling like you have to. And unfortunately that is not what Trendy has implimented. I know it isn't easy to impliment this, but hell they haven't even been close ever since their introduction of NM.

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ok I spent ALL afternoon farming king's game, thinking oh good the drops are better too.......... I kept getting myths with 7 ups.... LUCKY 7!

seriously, kept coming out with just seven ups to every weapon. Is this a troll map now?

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Why is that good design? It is nothing else but getting an excel sheet and every time you prune the lawn i'll add +1 in it. Once you got a 10 in it, i'll let you prune my bushes. When you got +50, i'll let you prune my trees, when you got + 150 i'll let you prune my garden and when you got + 1000000000 you are the pruning master. Since that is exactly what this game actually does. It just increases some numbers in a database. Nothing else.

But like I said, I don't mind for it being present, but then don't limit content (difficult or easy) based on these arbitrary numbers. Nor will I get it for free, I'll be spending time just as well as you within the game, you're just getting more because your spending more time that is all. but i'm not prohibited from playing, and if I want to and if I put in the time i'll be able to get to those numbers as well. but i'm not goaded into it, i'll do it only when I find that to be rewarding and fun. And is that not what a game is supposed to be? Grinding without feeling like you have to. And unfortunately that is not what Trendy has implimented. I know it isn't easy to impliment this, but hell they haven't even been close ever since their introduction of NM.


It is good game design because it makes people play the game longer. Obviously the content also has to be fun and feel rewarding, otherwise no one will play it. There has to be balance that allows the game to be both fun and rewarding while at the same time being challenging enough that most players will find it very difficult to actually beat the hardest content possible and get the best rewards possible. That is how online games work and keep people playing them. You sound like you want this to be more like a console game where you can beat it easily in 5-30 hours if you want to and then move on.

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Why did King's Game Survival go from being fun to being harder than nails? Is the purpose now to have 4.5k builder stats and have a 4.5k tower boost and DPS monk with a 4.5k buffer? If so, that's fine, but I'd second the 'difficulty slider' option mentioned earlier for future games. King's Game was quirky and fun, but imo, now it's just a slightly worse rehash of City in the Cliffs.

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It is good game design because it makes people play the game longer. Obviously the content also has to be fun and feel rewarding, otherwise no one will play it. There has to be balance that allows the game to be both fun and rewarding while at the same time being challenging enough that most players will find it very difficult to actually beat the hardest content possible and get the best rewards possible. That is how online games work and keep people playing them. You sound like you want this to be more like a console game where you can beat it easily in 5-30 hours if you want to and then move on.


People would just as well play longer if content wouldn't be strictly limited by it. If you are the type of person who likes to get every single advantage that he/she can get, then you will get it even if the advantage is not needed for the extra content. The way I suggested you still get your "fix", but in the grand scheme of things and for completing the content it isn't needed. But naturally if you do have it, you can faceroll this content. If you feel bad about that, just take off a couple pieces of the gear and you are handicapping yourself. Exactly the same way how people in real life keep stuff interesting. They don't need some dude artificially increasing the difficulty while you can do that just as well by yourself.

However, the way it has been setup now... it will not let the majority of the people keep on playing. If they hadn't buffed the difficulty of this map, you would have seen more people who would have been playing then how they have done it now. In the end the casuals make up the brunt of any game. So if your only intention is to focus on having the most people enjoying the game they should have never done 7.40b.

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ok I spent ALL afternoon farming king's game, thinking oh good the drops are better too.......... I kept getting myths with 7 ups.... LUCKY 7!

seriously, kept coming out with just seven ups to every weapon. Is this a troll map now?


it is an improvement - i got a ton of 1^ myth armor yesterday (granted with some stats in the high 200s / low 300s but still 1^)

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Why did King's Game Survival go from being fun to being harder than nails? Is the purpose now to have 4.5k builder stats and have a 4.5k tower boost and DPS monk with a 4.5k buffer? If so, that's fine, but I'd second the 'difficulty slider' option mentioned earlier for future games. King's Game was quirky and fun, but imo, now it's just a slightly worse rehash of City in the Cliffs.


Please don't pull stats out of your ***. Monk has 2k hero stats with 1200 health and 2k dmg. Highest builder stat is 3.6k which is ev waller health.

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People would just as well play longer if content wouldn't be strictly limited by it. If you are the type of person who likes to get every single advantage that he/she can get, then you will get it even if the advantage is not needed for the extra content. The way I suggested you still get your "fix", but in the grand scheme of things and for completing the content it isn't needed. But naturally if you do have it, you can faceroll this content. If you feel bad about that, just take off a couple pieces of the gear and you are handicapping yourself. Exactly the same way how people in real life keep stuff interesting. They don't need some dude artificially increasing the difficulty while you can do that just as well by yourself.

However, the way it has been setup now... it will not let the majority of the people keep on playing. If they hadn't buffed the difficulty of this map, you would have seen more people who would have been playing then how they have done it now. In the end the casuals make up the brunt of any game. So if your only intention is to focus on having the most people enjoying the game they should have never done 7.40b.


I disagree with how you think progression should work and believe data clearly shows you are wrong. You might think more people would keep playing but it isn't true.

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Please don't pull stats out of your ***. Monk has 2k hero stats with 1200 health and 2k dmg. Highest builder stat is 3.6k which is ev waller health.


He/She was being sarcastic saying you need the best **** to play it now, which is slightly true, you do need good gear to now play it, which defeats its original purpose.

As for you post that explains everything, with those stats you could complete the game, most people would say thanks to trendy for a great game if they could get those stats semi easy via just playing, sadly they cannot.

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He/She was being sarcastic saying you need the best **** to play it now, which is slightly true, you do need good gear to now play it, which defeats its original purpose.

As for you post that explains everything, with those stats you could complete the game, most people would say thanks to trendy for a great game if they could get those stats semi easy via just playing, sadly they cannot.


And I agree that it was buffed slightly too much which is why I think the 15% reduction should help a lot. I thought it was way to easy for the rewards and items it gave before though. As for his post, I understand that though in this thread and the other one many people were complaining that you need 4k stats to do the hardest maps which is not even close to true. Anything over 3k I would say is overkill and just bragging rights.

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It's a legitimate question, why was it so offensive to you? LOL; it's my opinion that it's not a fun map anymore, just as it's apparently your opinion that we're all noobs for suggesting that, haha -- anyway, if the idea is to get maxed Sup/Ult (680-840 per item, 500-600 per pet, 500 per weapon = 4.5k+) gear before running through it comfortably, then that's their choice, but I'll find another map to play if so. I don't have summoner, which hurts, but I also play most of my survivals solo with 3 one-function AFKs that I run with my foot LOL, which actually works on most maps just fine. It was fun being able to run through with Jester DPS yesterday, but the past is gone. Now I will cry myself to sleep and eat radishes in the corner of my room.

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It's a legitimate question, why was it so offensive to you? LOL; it's my opinion that it's not a fun map anymore, just as it's apparently your opinion that we're all noobs for suggesting that, haha -- anyway, if the idea is to get maxed Sup/Ult (680-840 per item, 500-600 per pet, 500 per weapon = 4.5k+) gear before running through it comfortably, then that's their choice, but I'll find another map to play if so. I don't have summoner, which hurts, but I also play most of my survivals solo with 3 one-function AFKs that I run with my foot LOL, which actually works on most maps just fine. It was fun being able to run through with Jester DPS yesterday, but the past is gone. Now I will cry myself to sleep and eat radishes in the corner of my room.


You do not need those kind of stats to run it. And maybe it is too difficult because you are running with afk characters. That increases the difficulty of the mobs if you didn't know.

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No one seems to have noticed this, so I have to say it: you know what King's 7.40 reminded me of? Levels 0-70, that's what. Remember when you used to find upgrades every couple of runs of a difficult-but-manageable campaign map? That's what we had here. Shards broke that pretty badly, making upgrades absurdly rare even on Survival, but we got to glimpse it again for a day. Someone in 1k gear could run King's Insane HC and end up with 1.1k gear! If you had 1.5k, you could beat Insane Survival and bootstrap yourself to perhaps 1.65k or 1.7k! For 2k and up, there was NMHCMM so you could hit 2.25k! It was almost like you didn't have to rely on the few people who were able to farm NM Mistymire back when it only had spiders. The temporarily-free DLC also reminded me of those glorious times. But now a bunch of butthurt people who got their gear when it was reasonably difficult have ruined it again.

My suggestion for fixing it? Take The King's Game back to where it was pre-patch, knock off the random crappy Ultimate drops (I saw one Ultimate Sicarius with multiple -300 stats) and buff the loot quality on the tougher maps like Karathiki, Moraggo, Sky City, and Palantir. If you need +400 to all relevant stats per piece of armor to beat the map, it should drop at least a few pieces per late wave that have +410. Take it from an early adopter with a bunch of early-adopter friends (I believe I know one of the first people to beat the Ancient Dragon on Insane back when everyone wanted Godly Enchanted Pristine armor)--harder is not necessarily better.

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No one seems to have noticed this, so I have to say it: you know what King's 7.40 reminded me of? Levels 0-70, that's what. Remember when you used to find upgrades every couple of runs of a difficult-but-manageable campaign map? That's what we had here. Shards broke that pretty badly, making upgrades absurdly rare even on Survival, but we got to glimpse it again for a day. Someone in 1k gear could run King's Insane HC and end up with 1.1k gear! If you had 1.5k, you could beat Insane Survival and bootstrap yourself to perhaps 1.65k or 1.7k! For 2k and up, there was NMHCMM so you could hit 2.25k! It was almost like you didn't have to rely on the few people who were able to farm NM Mistymire back when it only had spiders. The temporarily-free DLC also reminded me of those glorious times. But now a bunch of butthurt people who got their gear when it was reasonably difficult have ruined it again.

My suggestion for fixing it? Take The King's Game back to where it was pre-patch, knock off the random crappy Ultimate drops (I saw one Ultimate Sicarius with multiple -300 stats) and buff the loot quality on the tougher maps like Karathiki, Moraggo, Sky City, and Palantir. If you need +400 to all relevant stats per piece of armor to beat the map, it should drop at least a few pieces per late wave that have +410. Take it from an early adopter with a bunch of early-adopter friends (I believe I know one of the first people to beat the Ancient Dragon on Insane back when everyone wanted Godly Enchanted Pristine armor)--harder is not necessarily better.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Remember when you used to find upgrades every couple of runs of a difficult-but-manageable campaign map? That's what we had here. Shards broke that pretty badly, making upgrades absurdly rare even on Survival, but we got to glimpse it again for a day. Someone in 1k gear could run King's Insane HC and end up with 1.1k gear! If you had 1.5k, you could beat Insane Survival and bootstrap yourself to perhaps 1.65k or 1.7k! For 2k and up, there was NMHCMM so you could hit 2.25k! It was almost like you didn't have to rely on the few people who were able to farm NM Mistymire back when it only had spiders.


good point +1

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No one seems to have noticed this, so I have to say it: you know what King's 7.40 reminded me of? Levels 0-70, that's what. Remember when you used to find upgrades every couple of runs of a difficult-but-manageable campaign map? That's what we had here. Shards broke that pretty badly, making upgrades absurdly rare even on Survival, but we got to glimpse it again for a day. Someone in 1k gear could run King's Insane HC and end up with 1.1k gear! If you had 1.5k, you could beat Insane Survival and bootstrap yourself to perhaps 1.65k or 1.7k! For 2k and up, there was NMHCMM so you could hit 2.25k! It was almost like you didn't have to rely on the few people who were able to farm NM Mistymire back when it only had spiders. The temporarily-free DLC also reminded me of those glorious times. But now a bunch of butthurt people who got their gear when it was reasonably difficult have ruined it again.

My suggestion for fixing it? Take The King's Game back to where it was pre-patch, knock off the random crappy Ultimate drops (I saw one Ultimate Sicarius with multiple -300 stats) and buff the loot quality on the tougher maps like Karathiki, Moraggo, Sky City, and Palantir. If you need +400 to all relevant stats per piece of armor to beat the map, it should drop at least a few pieces per late wave that have +410. Take it from an early adopter with a bunch of early-adopter friends (I believe I know one of the first people to beat the Ancient Dragon on Insane back when everyone wanted Godly Enchanted Pristine armor)--harder is not necessarily better.


Mhm if they buffed the loot quality on the harder maps to be better then The King's Game it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But don't make random assumptions like the people who are complaining got their gear at a specific time, it retracts from your point.

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I just find it funny how a map which had a purpose of helping people bridge the gap has turned into end game content, thus defeating the purpose of the map. A slight upgrade was needed to make it challenging to all. I would of personally brought the difficulty up to Aquanos.

Trendy you make some enjoyable content however, but when it comes to balancing you really have no idea what you are doing. You panicked when people complained about it being too easy and just flat out lied saying people won't hit a wall. Well gee from the look of things I see plenty that have ran face first into a wall and won't be getting up anytime soon.

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-snip-


exactly how i feel. running survival and finding loot, getting slightly better, that's what is fun to me. ramming my head into a wall for 3 hours hoping i get maybe 1 piece of usable loot is not.

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You know, another thing I think is getting missed. People who geared up before spiders/sharks/copters probably have no idea what it's like to break into myth/trans nowdays.

Remember that to do survival, you have to beat campaign. Once they unlocked it, I doubt they ever went back with and tried to killbosses on nightmare with low end myth gear.

I bet a good number of them never beat those bosses with the new monsters, even with current gear. I know I don't do campaign on NM very often. The timer makes it annoying, even if I can handle the bosses now.

I'm guessing a lot of complainers simply have no idea what it's like for new players to progress. It's VASTLY harder now, and when someone says "I did it, why can't you?" it makes me want to say, no, you didn't. Try starting over with 70's in godly gear and see how long it takes you to get 3.5k stats. Without all the survival levels being already unlocked too!

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Well that went from enjoyable (friends and I could get to about wave 20) to hopelessly pointless in record time. I guess I'm glad to see that the players with super twinked out end game gear QQing got their way.

god forbid other people start having fun with the game again...

Also getting some serious flashbacks from early Dundef when we had like 5-6 patches a week rubberbanding the game between playable and broken. Sorry if I sound a bit irritated, its because I am.

I guess I'll just check back sometime next week to see how the game has settled out by revision G

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