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Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

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So yeah, I've seen people with 500 stats seem to be having issues with HARD let alone insane. People with over 1k stats are having issues with Insane. I wouldn't be surprised if people with 2k stats couldn't even handle Nightmare. This buff is ridiculous, you just created once again another wall for people to climb over. It was fine the way it was before, but no that wasn't good enough because people enjoying their time in the game would be awful for the high end players who've spent hundreds (or thousands) of hours grinding for gear. Personally this doesn't effect me as I can still do NMHCMM with ease but that's because I have the stats for it.

Also items will still fall off of the level when dropped from the Forge.

Does difficulty change what the tile effects will be? I.E. Lack of extra DU on lower difficulties? I didn't seem to get it at all after stepping on the tiles tons of times in an Insane and Hard game while seeing people who could do it before strugle. People who could easily do Insane before now struggle just doing Hard. Same applies to people doing Nightmare now have trouble doing it on Insane. The gap between how they can barely even manage to do it on a lower difficulty is just awful. Honestly they might of even failed. Granted some of the builds I have seen aren't exactly the best, they should be able to manage.

Yes maybe there needed to be a slight buff, though I think it was honestly fine for some reasons I've already mentioned but this is just ridiculous. I know it's going to get nerfed slightly (I already mentioned this would happen, big surprise) but I still doubt it'll be enough. I can see it getting nerfed again, if not for a third time depending on how things go.

Whatever, I guess I'll go AFK farm NMHCMM.

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Are you talking about Campaign or Survival?

With a good build, 1500 Tower stats is enough to beat Campaign on NMHC post-patch. I use a Summoner, Ranger, and Monk all with stats from 900 to 1600, and an App with stats in the same range except for T Attack slightly over 2K. But I don't build the App towers until later, auras/traps use up the bulk of my DU, and I don't really actively upgrade/repair... just run around playing with the tiles and exploring the map, essentially AFK.

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So yeah, I've seen people with 500 stats seem to be having issues with HARD let alone insane. People with over 1k stats are having issues with Insane. I wouldn't be surprised if people with 2k stats couldn't even handle Nightmare. This buff is ridiculous, you just created once again another wall for people to climb over. It was fine the way it was before, but no that wasn't good enough because people enjoying their time in the game would be awful for the high end players who've spent hundreds (or thousands) of hours grinding for gear. Personally this doesn't effect me as I can still do NMHCMM with ease but that's because I have the stats for it.

Also items will still fall off of the level when dropped from the Forge.

Does difficulty change what the tile effects will be? I.E. Lack of extra DU on lower difficulties? I didn't seem to get it at all after stepping on the tiles tons of times in an Insane and Hard game while seeing people who could do it before strugle. People who could easily do Insane before now struggle just doing Hard. Same applies to people doing Nightmare now have trouble doing it on Insane. The gap between how they can barely even manage to do it on a lower difficulty is just awful. Honestly they might of even failed. Granted some of the builds I have seen aren't exactly the best, they should be able to manage.

Yes maybe there needed to be a slight buff, though I think it was honestly fine for some reasons I've already mentioned but this is just ridiculous. I know it's going to get nerfed slightly (I already mentioned this would happen, big surprise) but I still doubt it'll be enough. I can see it getting nerfed again, if not for a third time depending on how things go.

Whatever, I guess I'll go AFK farm NMHCMM.


I think it still needs some buffs to difficulty. But whatever, you are entitled to your opinion, even though it is based on faulty assumptions and illogical reasoning.

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I am not sure how campaign is but survival is a little crazy. We were able to finish it but without a monk using tower boost walls were getting overran. Now this may be because we used the same build and this build will not work as well as a different one. I think after changing some things up it would be a lot easier. The walls were taking crazy damage mainly due to mages outside of gas traps chain casting fireballs at them.

The patch notes say that the difficulty will be decreased by 15% I think that this will make the map much more balanced for the items that are dropping as armor seems to be a lot more common now instead of weapons. I have no idea about the difficulty of campaign though.

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I think it still needs some buffs to difficulty. But whatever, you are entitled to your opinion, even though it is based on faulty assumptions and illogical reasoning.

See :
In the coming patch we will be increasing the enemy difficulty of the map, but for those having trouble on Nightmare as is, this should not be another brick wall.

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Bullocks. We are playing to have fun. If some people decide to spend 1000 hours of work on something which is supposed to be fun that is their problem...

Never should a game revolve around having to work to have fun... I got real life for that and in real life I get paid to work (and handsomely if I say so...)


That is what Open mode is for. If you are just playing to have fun and don't want to spend endless hours working to get your gear, you play open and get it handed to you on a silver platter. Ranked is for people who want to work for their gear and want to earn everything with their own strength, Open is if you just want to play for a couple of days and have fun.


Edit: And to the people saying they can't beat it past wave one now, that's the point. If you can't play NM yet, this ISN'T the map for you. You start on Endless Spires and work your way up, that would be like complaining and saying Aqua needs to be nerfed because you can't beat it with 800 stats. You start Endless Spires and then do the original campaign until you can beat them on Survival, then you move on to Misty and Kings Game, then move on to the harder shards maps from there. You guys are trying to jump the gun because of a glitch, they already said they didn't intend for this map to be nearly as easy as it was, it's meant to be a step from campaign to Shards, not the first step.

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See :


Yes, and even though that buff occurred, I still think it should be even more difficult then it already has been made. That or the loot should be nerfed, but clearly they do not favor that option.

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That is what Open mode is for. If you are just playing to have fun and don't want to spend endless hours working to get your gear, you play open and get it handed to you on a silver platter. Ranked is for people who want to work for their gear and want to earn everything with their own strength, Open is if you just want to play for a couple of days and have fun.


No open is for the people that cheat...

Besides if I want to get the achievements I need to do it in ranked anyway. And I have earned every single piece of my gear... but there is a difference between it being a game and a chore...


Edit: And to the people saying they can't beat it past wave one now, that's the point. If you can't play NM yet, this ISN'T the map for you.


I solo survival aquanos NM HC. I don't get past wave 1 in here. So again : bollocks.


they already said they didn't intend for this map to be nearly as easy as it was, it's meant to be a step from campaign to Shards, not the first step.


Read their statements properly... this is supposed to be a STEPPING STONE and NOT AS HARD AS ANY OF THE PREVIOUS MAPS. THIS MEANS THAT WHERE IT WAS IT WAS WHERE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WITH MAYBE A TEENSY TINY BIT OF AN ADJUSTMENT IN DIFFICULTY. caps for emphasis only...

A teensy tiny bit harder does not equal the increase we have had. And even a reduction in 15% is going to be peanuts. Logical progression means that you get in wave x drops for use in wave x+5. Not get drops in wave x+5 so you can beat wave x. As nearly the entire progression within this game has ended up...

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No open is for the people that cheat...

Besides if I want to get the achievements I need to do it in ranked anyway. And I have earned every single piece of my gear... but there is a difference between it being a game and a chore...



I solo survival aquanos NM HC. I don't get past wave 1 in here. So again : bollocks.



Read their statements properly... this is supposed to be a STEPPING STONE and NOT AS HARD AS ANY OF THE PREVIOUS MAPS. THIS MEANS THAT WHERE IT WAS IT WAS WHERE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WITH MAYBE A TEENSY TINY BIT OF AN ADJUSTMENT IN DIFFICULTY. caps for emphasis only...

A teensy tiny bit harder does not equal the increase we have had. And even a reduction in 15% is going to be peanuts. Logical progression means that you get in wave x drops for use in wave x+5. Not get drops in wave x+5 so you can beat wave x. As nearly the entire progression within this game has ended up...


Funny how you talk about progression. Say there are 50 maps in the game. Lets call the new map map 1, and all the other 49 maps are more difficult nightmare maps. If this map was working the way it was intended, it would drop gear that could be used to beat map 2, which would drop gear that can be used to beat map 3, and so on. Right now, map 1 drops gear that is better then map 50 and you basically can win the game with just the gear from map 1. That is broken. That is not a stepping stone, its a free elevator ride to the top floor. That is why it needed an increase in difficulty, or a nerf in drops, or something.

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No open is for the people that cheat...

Besides if I want to get the achievements I need to do it in ranked anyway. And I have earned every single piece of my gear... but there is a difference between it being a game and a chore...



I solo survival aquanos NM HC. I don't get past wave 1 in here. So again : bollocks.



Read their statements properly... this is supposed to be a STEPPING STONE and NOT AS HARD AS ANY OF THE PREVIOUS MAPS. THIS MEANS THAT WHERE IT WAS IT WAS WHERE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WITH MAYBE A TEENSY TINY BIT OF AN ADJUSTMENT IN DIFFICULTY. caps for emphasis only...

A teensy tiny bit harder does not equal the increase we have had. And even a reduction in 15% is going to be peanuts. Logical progression means that you get in wave x drops for use in wave x+5. Not get drops in wave x+5 so you can beat wave x. As nearly the entire progression within this game has ended up...


How the hell can you solo Aquanos on NM HC, but fail on wave 1 here? I'm almost 100% sure at this point that your build is the problem. That, or you're making stuff up. Or maybe you failed after one attempt and raged too much to try again... the build time is a little bit low, but it's still manageable.

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Yes, and even though that buff occurred, I still think it should be even more difficult then it already has been made. That or the loot should be nerfed, but clearly they do not favor that option.
So you're either failing to see the point of the map, or you just don't like it.

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So you're either failing to see the point of the map, or you just don't like it.


The point of this map is to bridge a gap of progression as a stepping stone. In its current state, it does that very well, by helping people with mid-high mythicals (1600-2400 stat range) collect low-mid transcendent items and high mythical items. It's an alternative to early Moraggo/Aquanos/Sky City, with slightly better loot, although I assume that past wave 30, Aqua/Sky City will be more rewarding.

If you don't think this is the progression gap that should be bridged, then fine. By all means, it's more than reasonable to say that there's a huge gap between Insane and Nightmare. But the loot needs to be lowered dramatically, because if the level was designed for people with 1200 stats, it would entirely skip over much of the progression currently in place (Misty Campaign, Original Campaign Survivals, Shards Campaigns, Misty Survival, low Moraggo/Aqua/Sky City survival).

If you want this map to be appropriate for people to break into Nightmare mode at all, the loot should be about equivalent to Misty Campaign...

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The point of this map is to bridge a gap of progression as a stepping stone. In its current state, it does that very well, by helping people with mid-high mythicals (1600-2400 stat range) collect low-mid transcendent items and high mythical items. It's an alternative to early Moraggo/Aquanos/Sky City, with slightly better loot, although I assume that past wave 30, Aqua/Sky City will be more rewarding.

If you don't think this is the progression gap that should be bridged, then fine. By all means, it's more than reasonable to say that there's a huge gap between Insane and Nightmare. But the loot needs to be lowered dramatically, because if the level was designed for people with 1200 stats, it would entirely skip over much of the progression currently in place (Misty Campaign, Original Campaign Survivals, Shards Campaigns, Misty Survival, low Moraggo/Aqua/Sky City survival).

If you want this map to be appropriate for people to break into Nightmare mode at all, the loot should be about equivalent to Misty Campaign...


I am confused by what you mean by past wave 30 on aqua/sky. I think a buff was badly needed but at the same time I think the buff was a bit too much and the 15% reduction should help a lot. Currently it is a lot harder than aqua and I would say at least the same difficulty as sky.

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How the hell can you solo Aquanos on NM HC, but fail on wave 1 here? I'm almost 100% sure at this point that your build is the problem. That, or you're making stuff up. Or maybe you failed after one attempt and raged too much to try again... the build time is a little bit low, but it's still manageable.


Have to tried the map since the new patch ?

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I am confused by what you mean by past wave 30 on aqua/sky. I think a buff was badly needed but at the same time I think the buff was a bit too much and the 15% reduction should help a lot. Currently it is a lot harder than aqua and I would say at least the same difficulty as sky.


Aquanos / Sky City go to wave 35 don't they? Sorry, I haven't played as much since Aqua came out and I was under the impression that Aqua / Sky City went to 35... didn't Moraggo go to 35? I might just be horribly confused. I have a hard time making it past 25 on survival these days, since the copters were added. Maybe it's just wave 25+ loot from Aqua that's better than King's Game then, but so far my wave 20-25 loot on King's Game has been better than my wave 20-25 loot on Aqua.

Have to tried the map since the new patch ?


Yes, this morning. I beat it on my first try, with Summoner/Apprentice/Monk/Ranger towers. Only the Apprentice had 2k+ tower attack, the rest of his stats, and all the other builders, are in the 900 to 1600 range. Summoner was my first-wave builder.

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Aquanos / Sky City go to wave 35 don't they? Sorry, I haven't played as much since Aqua came out and I was under the impression that Aqua / Sky City went to 35... didn't Moraggo go to 35? I might just be horribly confused. I have a hard time making it past 25 on survival these days, since the copters were added. Maybe it's just wave 25+ loot from Aqua that's better than King's Game then, but so far my wave 20-25 loot on King's Game has been better than my wave 20-25 loot on Aqua.





Yes, this morning. I beat it on my first try, with Summoner/Apprentice/Monk/Ranger towers. Only the Apprentice had 2k+ tower attack, the rest of his stats, and all the other builders, are in the 900 to 1600 range. Summoner was my first-wave builder.


I beat survival befor patch no NMHC now the build i used just fails me after patch

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I beat survival befor patch no NMHC now the build i used just fails me after patch


So... work on your build? It's a no-brainer that when a map is easier, you can use a weaker build and still make it through.

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Aquanos / Sky City go to wave 35 don't they? Sorry, I haven't played as much since Aqua came out and I was under the impression that Aqua / Sky City went to 35... didn't Moraggo go to 35? I might just be horribly confused. I have a hard time making it past 25 on survival these days, since the copters were added. Maybe it's just wave 25+ loot from Aqua that's better than King's Game then, but so far my wave 20-25 loot on King's Game has been better than my wave 20-25 loot on Aqua.


Ahh, no aqua and sky only go to wave 30. I would say the loot is on par or slightly better than aqua on survival and about the same as sky though nothing falls off the map like in sky. Aqua is way easier than this map. And while me and friend can have 2 afk characters on sky while on our summoners, in Kings game I do not think we could finish the map without tower boosting monks as the mobs start overwhelming the walls. This may be due to a bad build as we have not tested other builds yet. I believe that at the moment it is harder than every map except talay on survival(Karathiki I find to be very easy).

Also this is all based on survival as I have not done campaign since patch since I can get the rewards in survival and have chance for great gear.

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Ahh, no aqua and sky only go to wave 30. I would say the loot is on par or slightly better than aqua on survival and about the same as sky though nothing falls off the map like in sky. While me and friend can have 2 afk characters on sky while on our summoners, in Kings game I do not think we could finish the map without tower boosting monks as the mobs start overwhelming the mobs. This may be due to a bad build as we have not tested other builds yet. I believe that at the moment it is harder than every map except talay on survival(Karathiki I find to be very easy).


Well, I haven't actually tested this map on survival post-patch, only on Campaign (and I took a peek at the earlier waves). Late survival may be significantly harder yes... in which case a slight nerf is justified.

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Funny how you talk about progression. Say there are 50 maps in the game. Lets call the new map map 1, and all the other 49 maps are more difficult nightmare maps. If this map was working the way it was intended, it would drop gear that could be used to beat map 2, which would drop gear that can be used to beat map 3, and so on. Right now, map 1 drops gear that is better then map 50 and you basically can win the game with just the gear from map 1. That is broken. That is not a stepping stone, its a free elevator ride to the top floor. That is why it needed an increase in difficulty, or a nerf in drops, or something.


Progression for me with 50 maps would be this :

For ease of use and division 5 tiers (0 - 500, 500 - 1500, 1500 - 2500, 2500 - 3500, 3500 - 5000)

This would mean 10 maps on each division. With some harder maps and some easier ones. They would still drop basicly the same gear with a difference of a 10% higher reward on the harder maps. Meaning for those harder maps you would actually get 550 - 1650. But all the maps are BALANCED for that specific tiering. Meaning that at the low -end it would be doable but you'll be doing a lot of the work yourself, while at the highend your afk-ing.

This type of gameplay would make sure people can pick a map they like and that works for them without being goaded into a specific map. Maybe some maps won't be used as much ,but so be it then. You still got some mapspecific items, just like we got now, that could make some of these harder maps interesting but not necessarily needed. And the people that care about showing off will still be able to do so.

If you had made sure that the progression would be that the entire 10 maps of eternia shards would be beatable within that bracket of 500 - 1500. And kept the small chance that uberloot dropped. Loot that isn't actually needed to do content, but that makes those hardcore elite dudes able to show their e-peen. Then I wouldn't care one iota. Maybe I'dd try to get one, but I wouldn't care if I wouldn't be able to get one. Unfortunately though the devs have chosen, under pression of the more elitists under us to constantly inflate the stats. They made the error with the supergear, and with that cat out of the bag they where unable to just put it back...

In the end I play this game to finish the content. And if a map requires me to have x stats, then yes I would like to be able to reach x stats without having to give up my real life job for it... That ain't to much to ask now is it?

Soma :

1) I finished the campaign before the copters
2) the copters aren't that big of a deal over there since their paths already intertwine completely with my anti air defense and my monk with a trans copterbasher (gotten before the copters were introduced).
3) if you asked me to do the campaign I would fail miserably again, since Iagain i'm a slow builder, and overcompensate on the non central defenses, so I can leave those alone and just focus my defense on the central spot.
4) I can't carry other people
5) I'm reliant on a monk and luck of not doing something stupid (like clearing clogs outside of strength drain radius) and dieing at about 22 - 30.

EDIT in this game I would have balanced it like this :

Base campaign insane.
Base eternia insane
Base campaign nightmare
Base eternia NM

With all the maps within each division giving similar drops and requiring similar stats so that people can pick and choose which maps to do. The harder maps having max a 10% increase in loot quality. On top of that I would fix the rollover bug. On top of that I would make sure that :

Ultimate : unable to have any negative stat, and has a number of points in any stat.
superior : at max 1 negative stat
trans : at max 2 negative stat
myth : at max 4 negative stats
godly : at max 6 negative stats.

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So you're either failing to see the point of the map, or you just don't like it.


That is a random and baseless claim that you are trying to pass off as an actual counter argument.

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So... work on your build? It's a no-brainer that when a map is easier, you can use a weaker build and still make it through.


Mr High and mighty im obviously wasting my time since your elite all

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Progression for me with 50 maps would be this :

For ease of use and division 5 tiers (0 - 500, 500 - 1500, 1500 - 2500, 2500 - 3500, 3500 - 5000)

This would mean 10 maps on each division. With some harder maps and some easier ones. They would still drop basicly the same gear with a difference of a 10% higher reward on the harder maps. Meaning for those harder maps you would actually get 550 - 1650. But all the maps are BALANCED for that specific tiering. Meaning that at the low -end it would be doable but you'll be doing a lot of the work yourself, while at the highend your afk-ing.

This type of gameplay would make sure people can pick a map they like and that works for them without being goaded into a specific map. Maybe some maps won't be used as much ,but so be it then. You still got some mapspecific items, just like we got now, that could make some of these harder maps interesting but not necessarily needed. And the people that care about showing off will still be able to do so.

If you had made sure that the progression would be that the entire 10 maps of eternia shards would be beatable within that bracket of 500 - 1500. And kept the small chance that uberloot dropped. Loot that isn't actually needed to do content, but that makes those hardcore elite dudes able to show their e-peen. Then I wouldn't care one iota. Maybe I'dd try to get one, but I wouldn't care if I wouldn't be able to get one. Unfortunately though the devs have chosen, under pression of the more elitists under us to constantly inflate the stats. They made the error with the supergear, and with that cat out of the bag they where unable to just put it back...

In the end I play this game to finish the content. And if a map requires me to have x stats, then yes I would like to be able to reach x stats without having to give up my real life job for it... That ain't to much to ask now is it?

Soma :

1) I finished the campaign before the copters
2) the copters aren't that big of a deal over there since their paths already intertwine completely with my anti air defense and my monk with a trans copterbasher (gotten before the copters were introduced).
3) if you asked me to do the campaign I would fail miserably again, since Iagain i'm a slow builder, and overcompensate on the non central defenses, so I can leave those alone and just focus my defense on the central spot.
4) I can't carry other people
5) I'm reliant on a monk and luck of not doing something stupid (like clearing clogs outside of strength drain radius) and dieing at about 22 - 30.


A map that requires tier 1 gear to beat shouldn't drop tier 5 gear just as or more often then a map that requires tier 4 gear to beat. That just doesn't make sense. And if you just don't have the time to invest into an activity, well that sucks for you. Doesn't mean you deserve to have everything given to you for free.

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A map that requires tier 1 gear to beat shouldn't drop tier 5 gear just as or more often then a map that requires tier 4 gear to beat. That just doesn't make sense. And if you just don't have the time to invest into an activity, well that sucks for you. Doesn't mean you deserve to have everything given to you for free.


Please point me where I stated that ? Nor is anything given to me for free, I still payed for the game just as you, as did I play the game just as you. You just think because you spend more time you are entitled to better rewards? Isn't the case, your reward for spending more time is having had more fun then me. If that isn't enough, maybe replace this with something where you can gain money. It'll be better in the long run.

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Well, I haven't actually tested this map on survival post-patch, only on Campaign
Multiple 30mil HP Ogres moving at the speed of light. Those aren't even the copter ogres.

It honestly isn't that bad if you have end game gear though.

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