Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Tsuda

The King's Game and its state of balance.

Recommended Posts

Sure.


Great communication. I know people complain here too bout changes, but TE has some of the best 2 way communication I have ever seen from Devs. When will these changes come in to effect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay... so there's been a lot of complaints about "elitism" in the past 3 pages and I can't be bothered reading all of them, but there's a few points which I think really need to be addressed.

First of all, as one of the people supporting this change, my stats are hardly what you would call "elite." In fact, let me list what they looked like when this map was released.

Apprentice - 700/X/X/X, 1500/2200/1200/1200

This is basically high-end Mistymire level gear. It's decent... but far from being "elite." You can get gear that's only slightly lower from Mistymire campaign, and my friend and I, who used to frequently play Misty and Moraggo, often sold pieces only slightly weaker than these for 50m-150m a piece.

Summoner - X,X,X,X - 1400/1400/1000/1000

And this is an example of the mediocre pieces we picked up from Misty/Moraggo. I haven't upgraded them yet, when I do it may reach 1800 Tower attack... I'm also missing a pet. This is random gear from my shop that didn't sell, pieced into a set.

Monk - X/X/X/X, 1400/800/800/1600

Remember when Electric Auras weren't worth the DU? This set does. It's a random Mistymire campaign set, unupgraded, that I tossed on my Monk. It doesn't even reach the 2K radius breakpoint.

Ranger - X/X/X/X, 1200/1600/800/1200

Another example of random Mistymire Campaign gear.

Huntress - 2500/1500/X/1500, X/X/X/X

My oldest and most-used DPS character. Currently using a Transcendent Sandbow. Let's be honest, Huntresses aren't actually DPS characters... they're for spamming upgrades and repairing. The gear is fairly nice, this is the only character who has 3/4 pieces from Moraggo Survival, as well as a good pet I traded for.

With these characters, I soloed my way through wave 29 three times. Died on wave 30 once to Wyverns leaking (bad build decision), died on wave 30 a second time to Ogre walking through minions (I'm new to using minions so that's my build's weakest point - minion positioning), and the third time I disconnected right as I started wave 30. Not exactly the best of luck. This morning, I tried Campaign again, post-patch, and cleared it on my first attempt. For all of these attempts, I was 90% AFK after upgrading. My stats are mostly the same, although I have found a new weapon and one armor upgrade for my Apprentice, bringing his T. Attack to ~2400.

The point of this is, people are grossly overstating the difficulty pre-patch. If you have a Summoner and a Squire with 1600-1800 HP/Attack and reasonable Range/Rate, and a Monk and Huntress wearing crappy random gear from Shards Campaign levels, you had the gear to make it through W30 Survival. Which is the problem, because such stats don't even get you through W20 Aquanos Survival... and I, personally, found more Ultimates and Transcendents in these 3 survival runs than the 5+ runs I've done on Aquanos. I have a friend who claimed he found multiple Supreme armor pieces, and I have no reason to doubt that either.

Ironically, this is a point that was addressed earlier - knowledge is power, every bit as much as stats are. The people who claim to have issues with a 1600-2000 stat Squire & Summoner and the supporting characters... well, you're doing something wrong if you were having difficulty pre-patch. I would argue you're still doing something wrong if you're having trouble post-patch, as I spent the entire Campaign run this morning goofing off after building, chasing the shiny tiles around to see what effects there were.

This isn't coming from some "elite" player with 3k-4k stats wanting to keep the rest of the population down. This is from a player that's at Misty-survival and campaign gear levels. The simple fact of the matter is that no level easy enough to be handled with this level of gear should be rewarding players with what Aquanos and Sky City are rewarding players with. It's not balance, and it detracts from those levels.

I would argue that progression as a whole is broken, but instead of giving everyone freebies while Trendy fixes it, I prefer keeping things intensely challenging. Because it's better to have the fix come as a relief to those of us stuck on very hard levels, than to have the fix come after everyone's already decked out in the best gear, so that the fix doesn't matter...

One thing I would say about this map in particular though, the build time does feel a bit low right now. It's not impossible to work with, because after some practice, you'll get your stuff down in time, but it's far more stressful than most other maps... maybe that should be corrected? It's not gamebreaking by any means though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
People complaining about the build time, surely that's part of the challenge? On maps like karathiki the build time is much harder.

I still think it's a great map - it'll be even better when it's balanced properly. I doubt it will ever be as hard as sky city due to the very simple layout/choke points.

Also, will/have the leaderboards be reset now?


The build time was one of the reasons why I haven't touched karathiki. I'm just a slooow builder. I like to take my time and think. I'm an old guy you know... Besides in a map based on chess taking one's time is supposed to be logical :d.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Meh, I did the map pre-patch and post-patch, and drops sucked all over because of the BROKEN rng. In 12 runs, I got 12 gambler staffs with sub 100 upgrades. How is that a nightmare reward? Heck, 2 runs, the other reward piece was GODLY armor while I was playing on Nighmare...

Broken rng is broken, fix that first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm pretty sure Ogres don't spawn on wave 1 of Sky City. Also you have a lot more time and mana is closer to the crystals in Sky city making it quicker to build on. I can set up 3 harps at each crystal and buff beams at 2/3 crystals before the first wave even goes on Sky City.

On Kings game there's only enough mana to build about 8 harps and most of it is in obscure parts of the map.

Sky City is so much easier then King's game atm. Because I can't watch 2 crystals and kill ogres at them on wave 1 of Kings Game.


Build three on each point and buff them instead, you save mana and they do a better work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They already claim there's nothing wrong with the RNG Demonic. So don't bother. Just go do your 3-4 hour run of survival for one piece of ultimate armor if you're lucky. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great communication. I know people complain here too bout changes, but TE has some of the best 2 way communication I have ever seen from Devs. When will these changes come in to effect?


I can not say when the patch will hit as I do not control sending it through Steams backend. I do know that the patch notes should be updated soon if not already to reflect the new stuff and its possible a patch could be tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just played the patched Version .... all i can say is what the hell ...... after making it to wave 30 befor cant even make it to wave 10 now ... So Trendy net has gone from One extreme to the next ......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Build three on each point and buff them instead, you save mana and they do a better work.


So how am I suppose to grab mana for 3 harps on each level, grab all the mana to do so, then switch to an ev and build on 2 floors? There's what, 60 seconds to build?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can not say when the patch will hit as I do not control sending it through Steams backend. I do know that the patch notes should be updated soon if not already to reflect the new stuff and its possible a patch could be tonight.


Thanks, maybe with some luck and me being on the west coast, when I get home I will have the newer version instead of the juggernaut people are experiencing lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I used to play DD a lot with my kids. But we gave up maybe 6 months or so ago because we got sick of the all the undocumented things(nerfs and buffs) that never made it to the patch notes and the complete lack of balance testing. It really got tiring to have patches or new things released to have nerfs come down the pipe only days later.

We started playing again last week hoping at least one of these things would have changed...sadly this doesn't seem to be the case. I don't get it...are the devs and testers just sitting around smoking weed all day long?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just played the patched Version .... all i can say is what the hell ...... after making it to wave 30 befor cant even make it to wave 10 now ... So Trendy net has gone from One extreme to the next ......


How are your tower stats? The campaign version of the map feels barely harder than it was before. I don't have time to do a survival run right now myself, and I'm curious as to whether survival is really that much harder now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can not say when the patch will hit as I do not control sending it through Steams backend. I do know that the patch notes should be updated soon if not already to reflect the new stuff and its possible a patch could be tonight.


Well I do like that you are communicating, can't say anything bad about that. But I do feel like you bumped up the stats of the dudes by like 300% at least. So a gloal reduction of 15 % still keeps it at 255%. I presume that a first buff should have been a 100% buff. If that still hadn't been enough, you could have buffed it with 50% i'm sure at that time the difficulty would have been more then hard enough.


So how am I suppose to grab mana for 3 harps on each level, grab all the mana to do so, then switch to an ev and build on 2 floors? There's what, 60 seconds to build?


I have been having 100 secs. was just enough for me to put down 5 harpoons then i ran out of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So how am I suppose to grab mana for 3 harps on each level, grab all the mana to do so, then switch to an ev and build on 2 floors? There's what, 60 seconds to build?


What I did, with the short build time, was stack the top level with stuff, and defend the bottom crystal with my DPS monk for the first 2 waves, only putting my crappy auras down there to hold me over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wow...just got demolished on the first wave, completely. I used to be able to solo through campaign and now i'm not even close to finishing the first wave. The map was fun. I finally felt progression. I had enjoyed it like nothing else. Now this just completely ruined it for me. I'm not some epic player with the 2k stats, and thats fine, but to take a map that so many people had fun on this difficult is a crappy choice in my opinion. Now I feel like I never want to touch it again unless the difficulty is lowered enough. I don't even care if the drops are decreased some, the fact alone that I had fun is enough for me to play it the way I was playing it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Definitely way way harder, at least on survival. And I can imagine so on campaign but haven't done it again yet. About 2500-3k in tower attack, 1500-2000 in other stats, have all the classes.

Map seems simple but the fact that mobs come from 3-4 directions on multiple routes with no obvious chokes that protect the crystal makes it very challenging. Here's some attempts starting at wave 13.

First attempt: I built too close behind the crystal and ogres would catch it in their swing radius, ok easily fixed. Moved my stuff back.

Next attempt: Built too far away, crystal protection became an issue to certain mob types (couldn't tell what was hitting it), eventually went down to unknown non-ogre assailants. I assume archers or something lame, need to move auras/gasses further out.

Last attempt: Hit the +10DU buff early, got my harps + summoner units a perfect distance behind the crystal, put a triangle of reflects around both crystals and a box |_| around the harps and summoner units behind the crystal. Stuff was completely sturdy and could probably handle well into wave 25+, however stupid orcs and other things somehow reached the crystal randomly starting around w18 and would get a swing on it. Very unfortunate and surprising since there were 2 3-star gas traps on either side, 100k dps elec aura, and a 100k dps proximity mine trap. Those things musta been tanks! Not sure how to draw aggro away from the crystal from a safe distance while leaving it open, but if you attempt to protect it from separate sides it'll either get torn up by sharks or eaten alive by assassins and ogres.

Little tweaking I could probably make it back up to 25, but this is quite challenging even with my stats. Feel bad for the people of lower quality gear, you probably need 1500+ at least to beat campaign now or make it to wave 15.


I would actually say over 2000 is required. 1500, especially as far as Tower Health goes, is way too low to survive the first wave of Ogres especially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So how am I suppose to grab mana for 3 harps on each level, grab all the mana to do so, then switch to an ev and build on 2 floors? There's what, 60 seconds to build?


Start with your fastest toon, pick all mana and then go switch, place harps and then fall thru the hole right below the forge. build on the second floor, you should have enough time to go up switch to ev and buff.

Before you get gung ho on me, I'm just commenting on how I do it, I'm not guaranteeing wave 30 or anything. And I had to learn the map to get to the chest locations quickly, took me a couple of tries, oh, and get a genie, it's the only way to fast build with a timer on you, one more thing comes to mind, with the genie on, don't go for that last mob, use that extra time to polish the build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So how am I suppose to grab mana for 3 harps on each level, grab all the mana to do so, then switch to an ev and build on 2 floors? There's what, 60 seconds to build?


Are you soloing? I don't even have an EV so I can't address your dilemma in particular, but what I've been doing is,

1) Grab 300 Mana from the 3 top floor chests (300 mana remaining).
2) Place 6 archers, 2 at each of three points on the top floor (60 mana remaining).
3) Drop to the second floor. Grab the chest, and the chest across from me (260 mana remaining).
4) Place 6 archers, 3 at each of the entrances on the middle floor (20 mana remaining).

At this point, I grab the other 2 while time runs out, then run back to the top floor and add more archers / mages as I collect the mana. Even with the Ogre, my archers hold without any losses. By the time the wave is finished, I've added 3 more archers, and a mage or two on the top floor.

Second wave I add the app towers in my build, third wave I finish the minions, then I start adding auras / traps (5 proxies, 5 snares, 5 drains... my range on both characters kind of sucks).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you soloing? I don't even have an EV so I can't address your dilemma in particular, but what I've been doing is,

1) Grab 300 Mana from the 3 top floor chests (300 mana remaining).
2) Place 6 archers, 2 at each of three points on the top floor (60 mana remaining).
3) Drop to the second floor. Grab the chest, and the chest across from me (260 mana remaining).
4) Place 6 archers, 3 at each of the entrances on the middle floor (20 mana remaining).

At this point, I grab the other 2 while time runs out, then run back to the top floor and add more archers / mages as I collect the mana. Even with the Ogre, my archers hold without any losses. By the time the wave is finished, I've added 3 more archers, and a mage or two on the top floor.

Second wave I add the app towers in my build, third wave I finish the minions, then I start adding auras / traps (5 proxies, 5 snares, 5 drains... my range on both characters kind of sucks).


Mind giving us your Summoner stats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How are your tower stats? The campaign version of the map feels barely harder than it was before. I don't have time to do a survival run right now myself, and I'm curious as to whether survival is really that much harder now.


yeah Survival seems realy hard now on NMHC ... i made it to wave 30 befor patch now even the first wave gives me trouble ... i have 1200 Tower builder and a Ballance monk with 1000 to all stats.. The first wave the ogres just destroy all my Harpoons within the Strength drain... i dunno what was changed but its crazy hard now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Start with your fastest toon, pick all mana and then go switch, place harps and then fall thru the hole right below the forge. build on the second floor, you should have enough time to go up switch to ev and buff.

Before you get gung ho on me, I'm just commenting on how I do it, I'm not guaranteeing wave 30 or anything. And I had to learn the map to get to the chest locations quickly, took me a couple of tries, oh, and get a genie, it's the only way to fast build with a timer on you, one more thing comes to mind, with the genie on, don't go for that last mob, use that extra time to polish the build.


Ideas flowing, it's just a matter of getting creative, if that last mob is an stuck djinn, or any other high hp mob, go shoot it until the genie fills your mana, go upgrade, then rinse and repeat, I do this on misty a lot and it takes me around 3 waves to fully upgrade a build. There won't be stuck things on King's but the genie will allow you to build/upgrade/repair a lot in the first wave, of any map on NMHC (MM).

The genie is crucial to do things fast, with the dropped mana you find at the end of each wave you just won't have enough time to reach a high wave with a fully upgraded build.

Now that I said that, we can expect a genie nerf in the future...J/K....I hope not!

EDIT
Chi's problems comes to mind, if you can earn enough mana, you can keep repairing until the harps destroy the ogres, did this countless of times in mana short maps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the coming patch we will be increasing the enemy difficulty of the map, but for those having trouble on Nightmare as is, this should not be another brick wall.


Well, wave 12 of Insane Survival Hardcore....the mobs were moving so fast that they nearly outran me on the long straightway at the very top of the map.

Ogre literally killed the crystal in one hit.

So, if this isn't considered a "brick wall"...what is it?

I can do any other map in the game on insane hardcore survival. Anything up to royal gardens on nightmare HC survival.

I can't get past wave 13 on Kings Game...on only Insane. I don't have 2k in any stats, but my builder (apprentice) has average of 1300 in all tower stats, and my DPS (barb) has 1500 in all hero stats.

Deal about 3million DPS to the tavern dummy.

So. If I can't complete this thing...

All i can say is wow. It was fun before. Sure, not much of a challenge overall, but this is just too much. We had a team of four in earlier and died by wave 10. Insane Difficulty too.

Liked the map. Now I can't play it. can't even do camp on Insane now.

I'm sure I will get flamed for saying so, but whatever. It's just not fun to work as hard as I did and fail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm did you also change Ogre Meele range ? they seem to be hitting stuff from way further back its a bit extreme..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...