Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 50
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

At the moment I just feel like a huge liability to my friends when playing this class. Not much fun playing solo, either.

I'm fine with the Wheel of Fortune having positive and negative effects because skill can be used to influence the outcome.

The randomness of the presents, however, is a dumb mechanic. I understand that a small present shouldn't be that powerful but the fact that the negative outcome far outweighs the positive is crazy. The player has no way of improving or influencing the 'dice roll'

Presents should always have a positive effect, even if it is only small. Others have suggested spawning a friendly ogre - that's a great idea - small presents could toss out lower classes of creature e.g. Goblins or Archers. Medium sized could spawn temporary Orcs, etc. Health or Mana Potions.

I'm presuming that the current presents are bugged, which isn't helping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
presents work fine for me. I rarely get ogres. out of 15 extravagant presents I got 5 deadly strikers 2 strength drains 3 harpoons a slice and dice, a bowling ball, and the rest nothing. I believe it's all in the luck though. If you ask my friends I have crazy luck. I guess I have to agree considering the loot drops I get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem is, everyone else seems to have crap luck, otherwise we wouldn't have so many threads saying 'I GOT CRAPPY LOOT, THE LOOT RNG MUST BE BROKEN!' The Jester meanwhile came in and now it's like 'I GOT CRAPPY LUCK, THE RNG FOR THE JESTER MUST BE BROKEN!'. Same ol, same ol I say :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For the people claiming that it works so so perfectly, video or it didn't happen.
The word of few against the word of many.

It's not even like this would be a hard problem to fix!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why is it so hard to believe that some people have better luck than you? I will run some testing later, since you will not be appeased until you have been proven wrong. Though I doubt that you will believe me, even after I exert the effort of checking the numbers. I just don't know why everyone screams that something is broken, just because they have bad luck. RNG algorithm that this game uses is not perfect. For the presents, it has a prerequisite of a number between 1 and 10000(i'm assuming) each number between these are pre-assigned to a certain tower, loot, mana, or mob. the RNG then picks a number between the two. the game then summons what ever the chosen number is assigned to. (ex. RNG rolls 1239, this number is assigned to a harpoon, game then summons a harpoon.) the percentages that are shown on the presents is the percentage of the numbers that are assigned to a given type. (i.g. between 1-10000, 4762 of the numbers are assigned to towers, 952 are assigned to enemies, 2857 numbers are assigned to mana, and 1429 of them are assigned to loot.) These numbers are where the percentages shown are derived from. As with everything that is luck based, these are to show you any solid numbers. To say that this would be an easy fix is idiocy. For this to be fixed the RNG algorithm would have to be completely removed from the games core coding, and replaced with a static noise rng(not really possible). Is there anything else you would like to know?

(edit) I forgot to mention that the percentage of towers is the accumulation of all of the possible towers. I just thought that this could be relevant. also, Ice if you read this could you confirm or deny my numbers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Could points into towers also affect the randomness of what pops out? It shouldn't, but it could.


I'm not sure if your asking if it currently does, or asking if that could be a possible fix.
But no it definitely doesn't as of right now... I put full supreme tower gear on her just to try and still to no avail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why is it so hard to believe that some people have better luck than you? I will run some testing later, since you will not be appeased until you have been proven wrong. Though I doubt that you will believe me, even after I exert the effort of checking the numbers. I just don't know why everyone screams that something is broken, just because they have bad luck. RNG algorithm that this game uses is not perfect. For the presents, it has a prerequisite of a number between 1 and 10000(i'm assuming) each number between these are pre-assigned to a certain tower, loot, mana, or mob. the RNG then picks a number between the two. the game then summons what ever the chosen number is assigned to. (ex. RNG rolls 1239, this number is assigned to a harpoon, game then summons a harpoon.) the percentages that are shown on the presents is the percentage of the numbers that are assigned to a given type. (i.g. between 1-10000, 4762 of the numbers are assigned to towers, 952 are assigned to enemies, 2857 numbers are assigned to mana, and 1429 of them are assigned to loot.) These numbers are where the percentages shown are derived from. As with everything that is luck based, these are to show you any solid numbers. To say that this would be an easy fix is idiocy. For this to be fixed the RNG algorithm would have to be completely removed from the games core coding, and replaced with a static noise rng(not really possible). Is there anything else you would like to know?

(edit) I forgot to mention that the percentage of towers is the accumulation of all of the possible towers. I just thought that this could be relevant. also, Ice if you read this could you confirm or deny my numbers?


I agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why is it so hard to believe that some people have better luck than you? I will run some testing later, since you will not be appeased until you have been proven wrong. Though I doubt that you will believe me, even after I exert the effort of checking the numbers. I just don't know why everyone screams that something is broken, just because they have bad luck. RNG algorithm that this game uses is not perfect. For the presents, it has a prerequisite of a number between 1 and 10000(i'm assuming) each number between these are pre-assigned to a certain tower, loot, mana, or mob. the RNG then picks a number between the two. the game then summons what ever the chosen number is assigned to. (ex. RNG rolls 1239, this number is assigned to a harpoon, game then summons a harpoon.) the percentages that are shown on the presents is the percentage of the numbers that are assigned to a given type. (i.g. between 1-10000, 4762 of the numbers are assigned to towers, 952 are assigned to enemies, 2857 numbers are assigned to mana, and 1429 of them are assigned to loot.) These numbers are where the percentages shown are derived from. As with everything that is luck based, these are to show you any solid numbers. To say that this would be an easy fix is idiocy. For this to be fixed the RNG algorithm would have to be completely removed from the games core coding, and replaced with a static noise rng(not really possible). Is there anything else you would like to know?

(edit) I forgot to mention that the percentage of towers is the accumulation of all of the possible towers. I just thought that this could be relevant. also, Ice if you read this could you confirm or deny my numbers?
I wish you could have said this as beautifully as you did. Very well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why is it so hard to believe that some people have better luck than you? I will run some testing later, since you will not be appeased until you have been proven wrong. Though I doubt that you will believe me, even after I exert the effort of checking the numbers. I just don't know why everyone screams that something is broken, just because they have bad luck. RNG algorithm that this game uses is not perfect. For the presents, it has a prerequisite of a number between 1 and 10000(i'm assuming) each number between these are pre-assigned to a certain tower, loot, mana, or mob. the RNG then picks a number between the two. the game then summons what ever the chosen number is assigned to. (ex. RNG rolls 1239, this number is assigned to a harpoon, game then summons a harpoon.) the percentages that are shown on the presents is the percentage of the numbers that are assigned to a given type. (i.g. between 1-10000, 4762 of the numbers are assigned to towers, 952 are assigned to enemies, 2857 numbers are assigned to mana, and 1429 of them are assigned to loot.) These numbers are where the percentages shown are derived from. As with everything that is luck based, these are to show you any solid numbers. To say that this would be an easy fix is idiocy. For this to be fixed the RNG algorithm would have to be completely removed from the games core coding, and replaced with a static noise rng(not really possible). Is there anything else you would like to know?

(edit) I forgot to mention that the percentage of towers is the accumulation of all of the possible towers. I just thought that this could be relevant. also, Ice if you read this could you confirm or deny my numbers?


*Facepalms* Did you seriously just snap over a simple remark? I mean the opening of your argument is completely proven invalid by itself?
According to you there obviously cannot be a problem, and your logic behind this is that practically everyone must just be extremely unlucky?
And you have the audacity to ask how it is so hard for me to believe what you are saying.. After the majority have complained that there is an obvious issue.

As for what your going into with the core structure of the game your preaching to the choir, I've been scripting since I got into making overhauls for games like Morrowind with mwse for a base around when it was released.
The ladies and gents at trendy get paid to fix problems, and as far as I'm concerned and many others are it IS a problem.

Matter of opinion though, your entitled to yours and I to mine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't intend to make it appear that I was snapping, I just get annoyed that most people assume that something is broken without extensive testing. I am not saying that this is you. After testing it, I wound up with only around 37 towers per hundred presents. While this is not far off from the percentage shown I do not believe it to be acceptable. It may be working as it was originally intended, but that does not excuse the fact that it also makes the jesters towers valueless. That being said I only had, on average, 6 Ogres per hundred presents. I tested this on Deeper Wells survival wave 25, for a total of 500 presents summoned. The algorithm does seem to have a higher affinity for certain numbers though. I ended up seeing much more mana presents than anything else, on average 40 per hundred. If anyone else wants to check these numbers for accuracy it would be appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't intend to make it appear that I was snapping, I just get annoyed that most people assume that something is broken without extensive testing. I am not saying that this is you. After testing it, I wound up with only around 37 towers per hundred presents. While this is not far off from the percentage shown I do not believe it to be acceptable. It may be working as it was originally intended, but that does not excuse the fact that it also makes the jesters towers valueless. That being said I only had, on average, 6 Ogres per hundred presents. I tested this on Deeper Wells survival wave 25, for a total of 500 presents summoned. The algorithm does seem to have a higher affinity for certain numbers though. I ended up seeing much more mana presents than anything else, on average 40 per hundred. If anyone else wants to check these numbers for accuracy it would be appreciated.


I've come up with all to similar numbers when it came to towers.
But when it came to ogres I'd gotten many more than you, along with less mana boxes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why is it so hard to believe that some people have better luck than you? I will run some testing later, since you will not be appeased until you have been proven wrong. Though I doubt that you will believe me, even after I exert the effort of checking the numbers. I just don't know why everyone screams that something is broken, just because they have bad luck. RNG algorithm that this game uses is not perfect. For the presents, it has a prerequisite of a number between 1 and 10000(i'm assuming) each number between these are pre-assigned to a certain tower, loot, mana, or mob. the RNG then picks a number between the two. the game then summons what ever the chosen number is assigned to. (ex. RNG rolls 1239, this number is assigned to a harpoon, game then summons a harpoon.) the percentages that are shown on the presents is the percentage of the numbers that are assigned to a given type. (i.g. between 1-10000, 4762 of the numbers are assigned to towers, 952 are assigned to enemies, 2857 numbers are assigned to mana, and 1429 of them are assigned to loot.) These numbers are where the percentages shown are derived from. As with everything that is luck based, these are to show you any solid numbers. To say that this would be an easy fix is idiocy. For this to be fixed the RNG algorithm would have to be completely removed from the games core coding, and replaced with a static noise rng(not really possible). Is there anything else you would like to know?

(edit) I forgot to mention that the percentage of towers is the accumulation of all of the possible towers. I just thought that this could be relevant. also, Ice if you read this could you confirm or deny my numbers?


I scream it's broken because it's broken. Because in 20 hours of play she has summoned Many MANY presents, the amount of which were empty was significant, following nothing we have ogres by a large marjority as well, then mana, items, and finally towers bringing up the rear with approximately 5% drop rate. So to be clear, 40% empty, 30% ogres, 15% mana, 10% items, 5% towers.

Actual numbers, 10000 presents summoned, for a good sample size.

Empty 4127
Ogres 3115
Mana 1455
Items 875
Towers 428

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ogres 3115
Mana 1455
Items 875
Towers 428


That is absolutely crazy :eek:

What makes it even worse is that most of the mana dropped would have been a small amount, the items would have ALL been junk and you'd have gotten 20 (max) decent towers out of those 428 that were summoned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I scream it's broken because it's broken. Because in 20 hours of play she has summoned Many MANY presents, the amount of which were empty was significant, following nothing we have ogres by a large marjority as well, then mana, items, and finally towers bringing up the rear with approximately 5% drop rate. So to be clear, 40% empty, 30% ogres, 15% mana, 10% items, 5% towers.

Actual numbers, 10000 presents summoned, for a good sample size.

Empty 4127
Ogres 3115
Mana 1455
Items 875
Towers 428


After playing for a couple hours last night, those numbers seem fairly accurate. Either way it was NOTHING like the preview stream that Trendy did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Crazy conspiracy theory time-
As most people who do much coding know, truly 'random' number generators are basically impossibly. Most fudge by using extremely minute time increments on the current clock or the like.

What if whatever quantum mechanic the DD(/unreal engine?) random number generator uses is actually literally biased against certain people due to differing system specs/time zones/google search history/middle name/favorite color/astrological sign/something else?

Silliness aside, it's something worth considering, sorta. There's no such thing as 'luck', there are, however, such things as heisenbugs.

TLDR; Maybe DD needs more magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Crazy conspiracy theory time-
As most people who do much coding know, truly 'random' number generators are basically impossibly. Most fudge by using extremely minute time increments on the current clock or the like.

What if whatever quantum mechanic the DD(/unreal engine?) random number generator uses is actually literally biased against certain people due to differing system specs/time zones/google search history/middle name/favorite color/astrological sign/something else?

Silliness aside, it's something worth considering, sorta. There's no such thing as 'luck', there are, however, such things as heisenbugs.

TLDR; Maybe DD needs more magic.



Your sir made my night with that link ;D!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Being that posts about the new class were promoted and that the class was a 'fan-based' class I think it is safe to assume that the designers keep tabs on the forums and what their clients, us, talk about.

I got on right away and checked out the class. I managed to get a really good weapon at level 4, which made things interesting and raised my DPS through the roof, but in the first few hours after coming out Ogres were appearing from about 1/3 of my presents to maybe half. And I never got a tower in the first 3 hours of leisure gameplay, so maybe 200+ presents. With enough people complaining, if something had been off I would think they could have fixed it pretty quickly. Either that or you just have bad luck at low levels, cause at least for me I still use the same cheap presents but now I'm getting Blade Towers and other awesome things.

As for the class I think it is pretty fun though it definitely is a support character, which means it needs to give good support. I think some negs are good to throw in the mix, but if you can summon multiple Ogres, or debuff your allies, then the positive outcomes need to be of higher value. I agree that maybe a slightly smaller chance at getting a 'friendly' Ogre would make things more interesting and even out the possible risk of spawning multiple bad Ogres on your defense line.

Having played this morning and now this evening, I have noticed that towers are showing up MUCH more often. Last night if I wasn't getting an Ogre or nothing at all from the presents, the next most common result was a trap of some kind, or aura. Now I usually am having to move towers around during build phases because they are piling up ... suddenly.

Personally I feel that a good chart might look something like what follows:
Good Ogre (wanders around) 4%
Bad Ogre 5%
Small amount of Mana (less than the cost) 15%
Large amount of Mana (twice the cost) 5%
Nothing 10%
Items 18%
Amazing Items (a cost cutoff or something similar) 2%
Towers 35%
Upgraded Towers (maybe just 1 level) 5%
Something so amazing I can't think what 1%

Just by virtue of not knowing what tower will appear is 'random' enough. I personally have disdain to 'empty' presents because that is boring. This is a game, it needs to be entertaining. Getting 3 Ogres in a row is still far better than 3 empty presents that add nothing to the game.

With something like this the present still has a 30% chance of not being helpful, and about a 50% of only breaking even at most. But also offers something like a 10% at something very beneficial or interesting happening.

Lastly, players are still losing 80 mana if they stop from moving towers. This is certainly a glitch. Hopefully it'll be gone soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From what I gather she is a decent class, with the ability to use a staff for ranged, and when in close switching to monk based weapon. I agree presents aren't really worth the DU to invest in. I seriously don't see them being used in end game situations. The question is for the more experienced Jesters...as I have seen jesters alerady in the 70s today..seriously...Is it worth it to upgrade presents to increase the rate for an useful item intead of a bothersome ogre?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally? I'd love to see all the presents taken and thrown out a very high window, and replaced with some whimsical, but strategically interesting new towers. I had this idea before the class came out for a spring-loaded boxing glove, does weak damage but redirects mods, to help with consolidating lanes.

Presents are here to stay, sure, but... Trendy, the Jester is still missing 2 structures/abilities. Maybe we could make these ones less... pointless?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally? I'd love to see all the presents taken and thrown out a very high window, and replaced with some whimsical, but strategically interesting new towers. I had this idea before the class came out for a spring-loaded boxing glove, does weak damage but redirects mods, to help with consolidating lanes.

Presents are here to stay, sure, but... Trendy, the Jester is still missing 2 structures/abilities. Maybe we could make these ones less... pointless?


This, so much this. Way back when the Jester was first being talked about, this is what I expected was going to happen. Instead, we get a poorly animated walking recycle bin of game content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that this class is Trendy's prank on us, with the Ogres and all. It is a metaphor. None the less, it is intended to be a fun class, bringing in a new way of playing the game, with a variety of new challenges and opportunities for some good loot. I believe Jester takes some monotony out of the game.

I do agree that a present yielding an Ogre ally to smack some goblins around is a GREAT idea!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have no problems with the mobs from presents Idea, It's great, fun and cool. I have SERIOUS problems with the implementation. They should have a sliding scale of mobs summoned by the presents based on player level, so lvl 1-3 goblin, 3-5 archer, 6-9 orc, 10-15 mage, 16-20 warrior, 21-30 ogre, 31-45 blue ogre, 46-60 red ogre, or something like that. As it currently stands, if you use a present you have approximately a 30% chance of just losing the level for most of the game, because until you've got some sweet towers set up from your friends (or some SERIOUS hero swapping) a random ogre you weren't expectin can really mess your **** up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Played around a bit with spreading my presents around more, piling less in one area, etc. Had significantly better results.
I suspect an anti-farming/abuse mechanism in place nerfing overdense present clusters. Needs further investigation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...