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Dingle

Release of Item Spawn Limits

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This isn't me asking Trendy to do this; rather, with the DDDK update that should arrive with the Jester patch, it should theoretically be possible for me to create a comprehensive list of the spawn limitations of all items in the game. I'm going to do that for personal use regardless.

The question I'd like to ask the community is this: If I create an accurate list of the stats available for each item in the game, should I share it?

The benefits are obvious. If this list is public, anybody who knows where to acces it can work out if an item can possible spawn naturally; they'll be able to check whether an item is hacked or not against a list of actual limits on items.

However, the primary issue with releasing such a list is that it also makes it possible for lazy hackers to know what is and isn't possible to prove is hacked. If a list in public domain says that a given item has a stat cap of 300, hackers that know about the list would never create items out of that range, and hence users wouldn't be able to prove that the item is hacked.

The argument against that issue is that any hacker who actually knows what they're doing will be able to get the stat limits the same way I will. Regardless of what I do, some hackers will be able to hack items within the realm of possibility and, if not caught by VAC, will likely go uncaught regardless.

So again, I'll pose the question: Should I publicly release a list of gear stat limitations once the update goes live?

I'll defer to any Trendy staff that ask me not to do so, but otherwise I'll go by the poll.

Update: Trendy have asked me not to publish this database, due to (essentially) the primary issue discussed above in conjunction with paypal shops.

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Personally, I think that the down side outweighs the up. While it is certainly true that any cheater can look in the DDDK as you plan to, I frankly believe that most of them are just too damned lazy. If it involves more effort than watching a youtube video, I don't think most of the cheaters are likely to bother which would still leave them open to detection. For that reason, I'm voting against a public breakdown.

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Personally, I think that the down side outweighs the up. While it is certainly true that any cheater can look in the DDDK as you plan to, I frankly believe that most of them are just too damned lazy. If it involves more effort than watching a youtube video, I don't think most of the cheaters are likely to bother which would still leave them open to detection. For that reason, I'm voting against a public breakdown.


I 100% agree with this.

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Personally, I think that the down side outweighs the up. While it is certainly true that any cheater can look in the DDDK as you plan to, I frankly believe that most of them are just too damned lazy. If it involves more effort than watching a youtube video, I don't think most of the cheaters are likely to bother which would still leave them open to detection. For that reason, I'm voting against a public breakdown.


Eventually, it'll be public knowledge anyways... just with more misinformation mixed in. Even if the hacker is too lazy to search himself, someone will inevitably post hack-checks publicly, and someone like Dingle will likely answer. Once an explanation is given, that explanation becomes available to all would-be hackers anyways.

However, if you let it remain hidden except to those who search, people will likely start making crap up. Again. While most veteran players know better, new players are easily deceived, and false information posted about hacks will likely just create trouble.

IMO, it's better for us to be honest and let hackers do what they will, as they will do it anyways, than for us to add our own problems into the mix... such as people making guesses about hacked items.

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That's a fair point, Soma, but I only agree to an extent. The whole "They're gonna do it anyway" thing never seemed much of a justification to me (apologies if I'm misunderstanding and that's not what you're saying here). The only upside I can see, really, is having a resource for newer players to use in order to avoid getting banned for using hacked gear. That may well be reason enough.

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Any hackers with half a clue can create legit looking items anyway, the problem isnt with hacked 'legit' items, it with items too good to be true. If someone makes an awsome but totally reasonable item, the overall impact to the community is not large, the only people that would be affected are those that bought the item (and if they want to buy their way to the top so be it). I personally believe that helping the community spot hacked items, report hackers and avoid bans themselves is much more important than stopping a few would be hackers creating, 'Normal' items.

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Update: Looks like the DDDK has enough information for me to do this for every item in the game, except for the Jester stuff (Jester pack's not in DDDK after all)

I'm gonna keep the poll open until I finish building the database, so I'm hoping I can get more input from you guys.

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Update: Looks like the DDDK has enough information for me to do this for every item in the game, except for the Jester stuff (Jester pack's not in DDDK after all)

I'm gonna keep the poll open until I finish building the database, so I'm hoping I can get more input from you guys.


yay Dingle :D

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Any hackers with half a clue can create legit looking items anyway, the problem isnt with hacked 'legit' items, it with items too good to be true. If someone makes an awsome but totally reasonable item, the overall impact to the community is not large, the only people that would be affected are those that bought the item (and if they want to buy their way to the top so be it). I personally believe that helping the community spot hacked items, report hackers and avoid bans themselves is much more important than stopping a few would be hackers creating, 'Normal' items.


This pretty well summed up my thoughts. "Hackers gonna hack" may not be a valid justification for anything, but giving players the tools they need to avoid inadvertently buying impossible hacked gear, I think, is more important than preventing hackers from creating possible hacked gear. Like was said, someone will eventually have some sort of tool like this for the hackers, and they will try to keep it out of the official channels as much as possible, meaning new players may not know where to find it. It's like the old saying, "If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns."

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this would save those of us who like to fiddle with DDDK a TON of time. any information regarding the limitations of the variables, and especially any information on what some of the variables do specifically, would be welcome.

as it is, i feel like a lot of us are re-inventing the wheel on this stuff. at the end of the day, i'd rather be spending my time doing USEFUL stuff in the DDDK... the stuff i intended on doing in the first place like map editting and whatnot... and NOT trying to waste much time with the math when i should know the ranges to begin with.

because let's get real... this is dungeon defenders we're talking about here, not world of warcraft or something. there's not as much incentive for people to go the extra mile to legitimize their hacks, so to speak. with real money (mostly) out of the equation, you're only left with the lazy hackers or the ones who will tweak their stuff to look realistic enough anyways, so why not make things easier for all the good modders instead of being afraid of the handful of theoretical bad ones?

i can tell you after playing d3 that i'm sick to death of devs doing knee-jerk responses to the hackers that hurts the entire playerbase. in that vein, i'd like to see either dev information on the DDDK released, or community people like yourself releasing what they're willing to take the time to explain. because if they don't want us editting this stuff, they wouldn't have given us the functionality in the DDDK. it's there, so let's treat it like adults instead of mystifying it out of fear of abuse of it.

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no, i really love what you're trying to do. i really am. but its so easy for hackers to create "legit" items then. so while the upside are great. the downside is destroying it.

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no, i really love what you're trying to do. i really am. but its so easy for hackers to create "legit" items then. so while the upside are great. the downside is destroying it.


But this information is publicly available already. All Dingle is doing is making it slightly more accessible. Maybe a modder will accidentally surpass the limit a few times... but genuine item modders will just buy another copy (or has one on standby) and this time, look up the same rules by which the community caught him.

The problem is, withholding this information is not denying it to the modders. It's denying it to the casual audience, the players who don't think they have much to gain by studying it. People who DO have potential game will look into it, and that includes the very people you want to keep the information from.

Keeping this secret is leaving the wrong people in the dark.

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Trendy isn't doing much to beat the hackers (that we are currently aware of), so I say go for it.
Any not brain dead "hacker" could check the dddk themselves and figure it out anyway, so (in my opinion) why not save the legit players frustration to help spot at least the obviously hacked equip's.

I for one would greatly appreciate the help seeing as I am not a fan of code digging any more x...x too many programming classes in the past lol

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the true hackers would already know what the limits are
most other people just follow a hackers guide and probably put crazy numbers

not like there a system for this game that detects cheaters
it up to us to report players with screenshots as evidence of there hacked items

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Hello again everyone. I have an announcement to make regarding this project.

Trendy's staff have contacted me via PM - they've decided to use the veto I offered them to ask me not to release this list. I'm still going to make the list, and I'll use it to actively participate in the Item Check thread over in the Ranked Trading and Grouping subforum, but I'm not going to be publishing it.

The belief is that if item stats become common knowledge, paypal shops will only sell gear which Trendy cannot necessarily prove is hacked, and thus cheapen the end-game.

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Hello again everyone. I have an announcement to make regarding this project.

Trendy's staff have contacted me via PM - they've decided to use the veto I offered them to ask me not to release this list. I'm still going to make the list, and I'll use it to actively participate in the Item Check thread over in the Ranked Trading and Grouping subforum, but I'm not going to be publishing it.

The belief is that if item stats become common knowledge, paypal shops will only sell gear which Trendy cannot necessarily prove is hacked, and thus cheapen the end-game.


Arent paypal shops illegal anyway? That seems rather redundant on their end and also anyone buying an item for real money is just stupid imo.

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The difference is whether the items can be caught once they've left the creator. Fully available spawn limits would make it possible to create items which can't be proven to be hacked.

If people realise they got banned as a result of using paypal shops, they won't be repeat customers, which eventually strips business away from the hackers.

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Hello again everyone. I have an announcement to make regarding this project.

Trendy's staff have contacted me via PM - they've decided to use the veto I offered them to ask me not to release this list. I'm still going to make the list, and I'll use it to actively participate in the Item Check thread over in the Ranked Trading and Grouping subforum, but I'm not going to be publishing it.

The belief is that if item stats become common knowledge, paypal shops will only sell gear which Trendy cannot necessarily prove is hacked, and thus cheapen the end-game.


It's a good idea really but as what people stated the hackers would use this list to make the stuff look legit. People try hard to make them look real but it's so easy to spot. Why not just have a select group of people as someone mention verify that the items are deemed hacked or not and that select group would have access to that list.

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No because this will just help hackers hack and trendy be getting frustrated proving something that is hacked but possible stats. I say this should just be available to a certain group like "Item Checker".

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No because this will just help hackers hack and trendy be getting frustrated proving something that is hacked but possible stats. I say this should just be available to a certain group like "Item Checker".


Pretty much what I sad! :D

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Sorry. I didn't read the rest of the post except the first page.


I don't read either. I just skim most of the stuff.

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As much as I would love to see this list, I think it is important to never give hackers an extra tool. Hackers destroy games by driving out the legit community. Perhaps you could be a good go-to guy for the item check thread.

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that's so... BLAH. Looks like everyone who wants these numbers will be doing it themselves x..x I for one will be one of them... eventually (bah laziness)

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The DDDK is available to anyone who has a Windows (or Windows Emulation) enabled computer. That being said, open mode is a joke to anyone who can take 5 minutes to learn how it works.

That also being said these numbers will be out to those ambitious hackers anyways. So will not releasing a comprehensive list really slow them down? Not likely. Someone will do it anyways, eventually. After that it's up to VAC and the very keen eyed players.

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