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Goblin Copters break most maps in Nightmare mode


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First off, let me say, sky city was fun, the helicopters were manageable there because the map was designed to handle them. But....

(before you get to far into this, this post isn't addressing survival issues at all, This is in regards to the 8-9 wave matches)

You took a mob designed to be something for heroes to spot and stop from a distance, and shoved it into every map on nightmare mode, regardless of how it handled wyvern pathings "whats that, near the core, 3 second travel time? I am sure they will come up with some clever strategy with our new uber loot :D"

Seriously trendy, most of your old maps weren't built around this mechanic of airlifting defense tests. Much less something that can distract the turrets that are supposed to be stopping them from breaching a defense line. Fires homing rockets that do a boatload of damage regardless of resistances. Said rockets have splash, don't be near a defense unit when this happens.

Now lets have it drop an ogre suddenly on some maps that don't have much room from map wall to core . That damages things it lands on much like the demon boss, and can aoe swipe for massive damage .

This would be completely fine if they would carry in more than just ogres at times, I could deal with it dropping an orc, or something, not sharken, that would be stupid as they are already another form of defense stress test though, so before your code monkeys get excited with ideas, tell them its bad.

But now the defense setups are moving beyond "lol turrets to block spiders" to, l"ol turrets to guard turrets to guard turrets turrets that block spiders" Marginally easier with a summoner, but that throws your "optional" dlc out the window if you insist we need that new DLC to beat it.

The worst part about it all is the mass amount you get in nightmare mode on the later maps, They all fire their flares at once, so by the time any of the projectiles can track it again, they are well over it and they still manage to lolstomp their way in.

You didn't include pathing for these things either, if they get dropped on random geometry that they normally shouldn't even get to they just scramble all over the place and pot shot turrets, lets hope you have a dps that can murder them, or if you are playing solo that you haven't stuck on your tower character.

In Survival, they are understandable as survival is designed to test your building limits, but you have TIME and resources to prepare for those. In standard gameplay, you have a limited number of mana to work with. So most things are on a dead rush to do things.

Each update with eternia has made this "beat on nightmare hardcore" thing incredibly hard, I dunno what else to do besides voice my complaints for the regular missions, as they are no longer functioning as they were designed to.


Just, after that rant, Have them do something else besides cart in ogres over and over, at the moment it feels like a lazy mob type designed to ruin current defense strategy without considering what the counter to them should be. Or, you know, don't and release another hero to counter it.

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Sorry to hear you're having some difficulties. Maybe I can offer some help and insight.

The first thing you can do is the simplest: shoot down the copters with weapons. Not only does have the potential to kill the ogre instantly depending on where it happens, but even if ti doesn't the ogre will take a huge amount of damage and become basically a free bag of mana.

Copters displace some of the normal ogres on the maps, so they shouldn't be impacting you as severely as they are. If you include summoner minions in your setup (Do it on the second wave, because copters were removed from the first wave of campaign)they can take down the ogres that get dropped behind you. Lightning towers, auras, and traps all help with this as well. All you have to do is rethink your build. Yes, old builds might not work. Change up your tactics and they will become a lot easier.

[QUOTE]The worst part about it all is the mass amount you get in nightmare mode on the later maps, They all fire their flares at once, so by the time any of the projectiles can track it again, they are well over it and they still manage to lolstomp their way in.[/QUOTE]
Under most circumstances, towers should be shooting at other things before copters first. This was changed in a recent patch so that towers wouldn't waste their shots on the flares when there were other things they could hit.

If you could beat the maps on nightmare before, you should still be able to. You might have to try a new build though. This is just my opinion of course, but I think part of the fun of a tower defense is experimenting with different defense combinations. DunDef has huge variety in this area compared to many other similar games. Now, I'd actually be inclined to agree with you that the new enemies weren't really ideal on some of the original maps. However, they're part of what makes nightmare difficulty a nightmare, so to speak. It's supposed to be harder.

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Most of the maps have been beatable so far, The summit has been the killer for me mostly.
Also, this requires you to switch constantly, from a solo experience this is almost impossible as the map size tends to play against you with setup time.

I wish I could record a match because what happened on the summit was the copters fire their flares in succession so the harpoons constantly track the flares and the mass wave of ogres makes it over the edge and onto the crystal core platform. harpoons have a .23 fire rate on their stats so it seems odd that they keep firing at them. The Turret AI is likely fire till dead or something, and since the flare can't Die, simply expire it keeps tracking them even after its fired the shots at the distraction.

This also happened in throne room but their approach was so far off the flare expired before the copters got near. Endless spires would also have this issue if it wasn't for all the pitfalls they can take. at close range to the cores

The copters are just way to shoddy in their mechanics to be reasonable for any average player. And appealing to the 2% that actually have the gear to break the game and require only 1 turret for massive things seems silly.

In regards to the summoner minions thing, archer spam doesn't always work, and is a bad design if I have to buy a new character to beat a new game mode. And to be honest, with the latest addition of copters, Summoner is not optional anymore for most builds it seems. you simply have to have the double defense thing simply to overcome it.

As it stands my archers do about 35-40k damage a shot on nightmare, easily rivaling my harpoons at the moment. Meaning I can have roughly 16 of them in one place, or at ideal spots trying to target the copters before they make it in on summit, and they simply cannot kill them fast enough before the Copters are over the platform, even with ensare auras to slow it still makes it across and drops them manually. I will test this with the mage towers and see if their is an improvement, but at the moment it feels really skewed towards having the summoner and a huge trans geared dps eve/huntress. My dps character is likely the weakest link here, I just tend to build self sufficient defenses. Its really infuriating when they add these mechanics forcing me to abandon a playstyle simply because it was a new update to a map mechanic they thought was neat.

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I totally agree with this; the campaign maps were not made with copters in mind. However, on the shards, they seem to be better. I can say without a doubt this was the worst mob ever to be added to the game. (I love sharken for some reason. They tell me to re-think my setup sometimes). Now, the towers 75% of the time are pre-occupied with the copter ogres that got behind your defenses. You could design around this, but DU is becoming more and more scarce and it requires that you know every mechanic and nook in the game's code. Starting Nightmare, pfft, good luck to you. This is ofc, campaign maps.

I haven't attempted any of the shards maps on NM yet, and these copters guarantee that I never will. Heck, I'm limited to play Alch, Serv, and Arm. I could complete survival before.

I'm not sure you can even nerf something like this. How do you get rid of pests? You spray, we need to spray these choppers away, let them have Sky City :P. While your at it Trendy, make a mob that targets your forge and can steal all your items and here is the best part - he's invisible! Hah.

Okay, I apologize there for being a bit harsh, but I think we would be best without choppers, at least on the campaign maps. Sadly, this game moved from one of my favorites, to one of my "unfun" games and that dissapoints me :(

So far, I hear the counter to them is a DPS hero, but take a step back here. This is a tower-defense game and in the long history, we AFKed long and hard. I launch DD for good old grinding in the background while I play a FPS or something on my Xbox, I don't want to be concerned about stupid things like choppers basically nuking your defenses before wave 20 (because you know in history you AFKed to round 20).

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People shouldn't have to have a summoner to beat nightmare difficulty(with sub 2.5k stats). As it stands almost every single one of my nm builds rely on having time to get minions up by the 4th wave at the latest and preferably wave 2 on survival.

I've also found that on some maps if I end up stuck on my tower builder(countess) I'm dead about 30secs in from mass flare damage. even with 60-70% resists on nm. I have to resort to either summoner in phase shift or huntress with invis to repair/upgrade during the heavier waves(post wave 11 on survival) or I just die.

Goblin Copters are unbalanced. Either give them pathing so we can plan build properly(in a recent TTR surv, the copters where dropping ogres on top of my crystal!) and reduce the flare damage(or remove splash) or make them also airlift things that aren't ogres. It's making the jump from insane to nm far too wide.

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I think the problem with goblin copters is their spawn rate. Rather than coming steadily throughout the wave, it seems that there's none on the map or a ton of them.

This, and their freaking insane damage (which is normally working in tandem with a tanking ogre which for some reason has more than normal ogre HP).

EDIT

Oh, and their tendency to be all in the same place. 5 choppers each launching 4 missiles at the same thing does some rediculous damage

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I also think that ideally goblin copter should be draining the main pool of ogres (which I'm positive that they're not, but correct me if I'm wrong). This new enemy isn't so much a new enemy, all it's doing is just more than doubling the number of ogres.

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I remember the very first nm with just spider, that was a real nm, now is like spider are gone, i dont remember any of my tower getting webebed since djin.

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This, and their freaking insane damage (which is normally working in tandem with a tanking ogre which for some reason has more than normal ogre HP).


That damage is the worst for me. I've had to put reflectors in front of all my minion walls and even some towers, and that's no guarantee they won't just fly up and shoot OVER the reflector. And forget running between cores on sky city - I get out from behind a reflector/far back in my defenses, and I have to gtfo or I get 1-2shotted by gold copters, that mass up since nothing will kill them until I try to get around to it or my defenses have been shelled to 1/10 their hp. Perhaps this apprentice buff isn't so ninja - it's a subtle hint to switch from harps to fireballs and put reflectors in front of everything and just wait for the siege to be over. In that case, PLEASE modify reflector walls so they curve back over defenses.

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[QUOTE]People shouldn't have to have a summoner to beat nightmare difficulty(with sub 2.5k stats).[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone said that. However, it's a very helpful option because minions all have a 360 degree firing radius. Most of the other defenses that can do this have a smaller coverage area, or an element, or a high DU cost. Also, if you play with friends, or in pubs, you don't have to own a hero class yourself to benefit from its existence.

[QUOTE]I think the problem with goblin copters is their spawn rate. Rather than coming steadily throughout the wave, it seems that there's none on the map or a ton of them.[/QUOTE]This is a fair point to consider :) On sky city, it's not noticed as much because the copters go to several different places, so you're not as likely to end up with multiple copters and several beefy ogres in the same place. Take a map like magus quarters, and there's only really 2 main vectors (this map is by far the most cramped to have something like this in).

[QUOTE]So far, I hear the counter to them is a DPS hero, but take a step back here. This is a tower-defense game and in the long history[/QUOTE]This is a frequently echoed statement, but Dungeon Defenders is not just a tower defense game. It has action RPG/dungeon crawl elements to it, and the most successful players will use all of the tools at their disposal. Limiting yourself to only certain tools (e.g. refusing to use weapons), you're just making things harder on yourself. There is a Pure Strategy mode if you want to omit most everything that isn't tower defense from the game (yeah, the loot is crap, but you still get good pets and EXP with less effort).

[QUOTE]we AFKed long and hard.[/QUOTE]This was because survival was long and not hard. I think part of the point of all of the new enemies was to make it so you couldn't just afk through most of the game. Is AFKing really more fun than participating in the action? Fair question.

[QUOTE]and that's no guarantee they won't just fly up and shoot OVER the reflector.[/QUOTE]This is just my personal experience, but I've never had that happen. Copters tend to sit still once they're in range of something they can (try to) shoot.

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Tried to come back and play after Shards 4. I took a break from playing right after the whole Easter thing. Was farming Moracco and Misty regularly, slowly building up the stats on all my characters. Relevant stats are between 1000-2300 I'd say now, not terrible, but not high enough to stand up to how broken Goblin Coppers are. Cant farm anything worth farming now, as has been said Goblin Coppers are not designed for these maps... There is now a huge gap where this game is not fun and not worth playing, which occurs right after Insane Survivals are too easy and you don't have 3k stats to get through how ridiculous coppers are. Gear Progression now requires not only that you must buy DLC heroes but you spend massive amounts of time farming crap loot just to save up the billions upon billions of mana it's going to cost for gear in order to combat copper, ogre, sharken spam that just seems to make chaos out of defenses. All Trendy did was make breaking into NM much much harder, no better loot for the pain, it's not fun at all. You might as well just make my defenses explode at random. Take back Shards 4, I don't want it, I will gladly continue playing and paying for the Dungeon Defenders game that was fun. Release a DLC that removes shards 4, I'll friggen pay for that just to have enjoyment back again.

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this is why i find choppers game-breaking

1) they sit still and hover abive the range any melee char. has a chance of hitting them at. So now my countess towers miss 90% of the time, and i can't melee them myself becase they're always out of range.

2) they shouldnt be allowed to be buffed by genies/made golden. Golden choopers go 2 shots at 25,000 dmg each, and fast.

3) they shoot rockets nonstop at you never allowing you to upgrade anything if they are in hover range. (again see #1 and the problem of being a countess)

4) game balance. it isnt with this new mob.

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Now, while I have not yet given NM a try with the new shards patch, I feel like throwing a quick comment in anyway.

What kind of gear can you get from Sky City on Insane? Because now that the whole shards thing is pretty much finished, and NM can't stay a "beta" for that much longer, there should be some actual progression now, right? How exactly does that work when jumping things up to the last difficulty setting adds in FOUR entirely new, strategy altering game play mechanics?

I'm one of those saps stuck trying to get into NM and not finding a good way to do it. For a while there I was able to do Magus Quarters survival with a build I looked up, but it looks like that just got a lot iffier if the secret to copters is hero DPS. You know, that thing that gets horribly nerfed in NM mode. Now not only do I need to try and luck out for gear with build stats high enough, I need massive upgrades for defense values AND to dump a crapload of mana into a good weapon first?

I mean, I guess I was able to get a sweet seahorse from Aqua insane, but none of the equipment there I got seemed all that fancy. At least not for as far as I got. Will I be stuck doing nothing but Aqua and Sky City until I hit that magical gear point where the rest of the game opens up again? Because that just seems silly.

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Little secret for you Ogetsu: It's possible to get a trancendent pet from Insane boss rush. :p

Insane sky/aqua will drop mythicals in later waves, but they won't be better than what you've already probably found on NM.

[QUOTE]Will I be stuck doing nothing but Aqua and Sky City until I hit that magical gear point where the rest of the game opens up again? Because that just seems silly. [/QUOTE]There is no magical gear point where the game opens up. While you do need a certain absolute minimum amount of stats to get far on survival, a strong setup using a combination of defenses from different heroes can drastically reduce the amount of stats you need to be able to win. you do NOT need 2k+ stats to get through most of nightmare (and by most of, I mean pretty much everything except CD, and AQ/sky city survival). I'm always willing to help players discover good builds and such, if they ask. :)

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You seem to be ignoring the time table you are on in normal mode, this isn't survival where you can leisurely setup defenses at your whims during setup.

Regardless of their intentions the current Copters are way to much to handle in their regular maps without game breaking stats.

Give Nightmare Summit a whirl if you think its "beatable" and just a matter of strategy.
Then explain to me that you didn't use 2k+ stats on all your towers that it worked.

It really feels your argument hinges on what you read in patch notes rather than what you've actually played since the update.

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This is a fair point to consider :) On sky city, it's not noticed as much because the copters go to several different places, so you're not as likely to end up with multiple copters and several beefy ogres in the same place. Take a map like magus quarters, and there's only really 2 main vectors (this map is by far the most cramped to have something like this in).


I was doing Magus Quarters on NM for Myth RTS, and my minions kept killing the copters above the lava. Feels good man. Magus fits the copters better than most other maps, IMO. If you can drop the Ogre to it's death in the map, the map is okay for Copters in my book. Now, in SMF, I was barraged by 20k damage Missiles from buffed copters on my DPS Monk. Not fun. :

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I was doing Magus Quarters on NM for Myth RTS, and my minions kept killing the copters above the lava. Feels good man. Magus fits the copters better than most other maps, IMO. If you can drop the Ogre to it's death in the map, the map is okay for Copters in my book. Now, in SMF, I was barraged by 20k damage Missiles from buffed copters on my DPS Monk. Not fun. :<
that comes down to "are your defenses killing them fast enough?" On endless spires there seems to be a sweet spot in how fast they die causing them to be negated, too quick or too slow and you just keep adding ogres to the enemy lanes though.

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Now, in SMF, I was barraged by 20k damage Missiles from buffed copters on my DPS Monk. Not fun. :<


I know that feeling. I just failed an OMF run on NMHC because of the copters missile spam. I have 1500 stat Harpoons and Auras and 2000 HP Walls so even the frankly silly 11m HP Ogres the Copters drop in wave 1 aren't a problem but the tight defensive setup monsterfests need results in Copters gathering up and the spam is really annoying and quite dedly even at very high resists.

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I know that feeling. I just failed an OMF run on NMHC because of the copters missile spam. I have 1500 stat Harpoons and Auras and 2000 HP Walls so even the frankly silly 11m HP Ogres the Copters drop in wave 1 aren't a problem but the tight defensive setup monsterfests need results in Copters gathering up and the spam is really annoying and quite dedly even at very high resists.


I just don't bother with walls on UMFs. The Ogres admiring the engravings on my walls is boring, and I like to get out there some times. I just aura stack on a 6 DU Buff Beam with as many Harps as I can fit on there then run around like a headless chicken on DPS monk Boosting. Way more fun. Copters are only a problem for me in groups. 15-20k damage missile barrages! WOOO!

EDIT: Oh, then there's the Sharks. Too lazy to actually re-build walls.

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I played mix-mode aqua to completion carrying 2 afk's without changing my build from shards 3. I was disappointed and think that copters should be buffed. They were a non-factor. Never dropped anything over my walls. Died way before that.

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mhm, and you did this with what stats? The problem now is that once you get to a certain point, the only way to improve is through finding ultra rare, really good loot that only drops late stage nmhc survival, but without it you cant get to that late stage point. Its a catch 22, and the only way around it is getting a group who is already there to carry you through, again and again, until you can get a good set yourself, OR you can farm for a thousand years to buy the really good loot for billions and billions of dollars from auction.
I didnt think the game was made to force you to build with certain characters and switch, i thought that was just an option, but now its necessary for you to have not only all the classes, but multiples of many with different focuses. And the auction house has just broken the economy. On my squire, say, with about 1.8k in tower stats, i have upgraded each of his mid level mythic peices to have about 300 in each tower stat, and now they are all maxed there. He cannot grow without new, BETTER armor, which can only be found late wave high diff, and even then only rarely....which he cant survive in.

Im sure this isnt just my problem as shown by the fact that on pc, all of a sudden, there are NO nightmare matches most time running.

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My stats are Average-High. 2-3k in the respective important stats. App is like 3k dmg 2k rate, same with summoner. Ev has like 4k walls though and 3k beams. Traps and auras are both lower at 2k. Dps is 2k.

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Is AFKing really more fun than participating in the action? Fair question.



No, but neither is not making any progress because the new mobs ream you in the *** if you don't already have great gear. I was hoping to make some progress again, as I quit when Sharken came out, because I just grabbed the Summoner DLC the other day when it was on sale, but Copters pretty much killed that idea. I can't even do what I used to do to make money, before Sharken came out I was able to do OMF, but Sharkens and increased Necromancer healing but a damper on that, and Copters just make it outright impossible.

Something needs to be done about loot progression in this game, loot hasn't gotten better to compensate for having to deal with newer, and much more difficult enemies that maps now throw at you. Lower end maps need to deal out more, better quality Mythicals so newer players can deal with the new enemies, especially Survival maps.

And the auction house has just broken the economy.


Honestly if there was a REAL Auction House like there is in Diablo 3, the game would be a lot better for it. While in Diablo 3 it sucks to have to gear up through it instead of the game itself, you can at least look at all the available stuff you could want easily and it at least forces people to be competitive with prices to some degree. It sucks here in DD trying to look for loot since you have to go into individual shops or use Defender's Store and hope you can find the person's server. At least with a real AH prices on stuff would drop significantly and you wouldn't see jerks pricing crap Mythicals for hundreds of millions of mana.

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You can do some insane maps for some really good rewards. Aqua insane can reward you with trans seahorses.

If you got 1 good dps one and a bunch of tower ones for all your builders it would be pretty easy to get stats to do aqua or something.

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