Big rant about Talay Mining Map

I am so disappointed with the new map, dont even know where to start.

First off, why again such a huge map?
For whatever reason, DD went from a funny little TowerDefense game to a larger than life mode, where only big numbers count and with that comes bigger and harder maps.


I try to keep it as well formated as possible, so here we go:

---
Summoner requirement:
Ok, i get it, TE wants to make money and rightfully so, but if you release a map, that cleary requires the summoner, why not bundle it? That one really upset me big time, not because i dont have the summoner (bought him on release), but the sneaky way of somewhat forcing people to buy another DLC.
Sure, i could just play on insane without him, but would i want to do that?
The given DU is just not enough for higher NM waves (+20), and this is because they either want us to buy summoner, or they havent really tested the map.

---
Map layout:
Really dont like the layout, too confusing minion pathways, very close spawns, speedtravelling system not working very well.
Performance, as expected, worse than all the other maps so far.
Overlord Mode isnt working properly.
Not enough time to react, if something goes wrong.
Another map thats not SP friendly in any way shape or form.
It kinda feels to me very rushed and not well thought out.
Put one spwan there, one crystal there and voila! we got a new map...

---
Loot quality:
We made one run with three highly geared monks and got to wave 22 (NM HC) or so, oh man, the loot was just utter crap.
Every round i had 2-3 boxing gloves in front of me and not a single good item till wave 22 and only one trans on the whole map.
Unlike all the other maps, you dont get a pet W15 and only a crappy one on W30, thx guys!

---
Pet Rock:
Really? I mean, really?
I dont understand the concept behind this "amazing" new pet.
Cleary nobody would use this for DPS, since movement speed is vital. So how does it affect a builder? Even more building time... argh.
Changing pet after everything is built is not an option for me.
The design of the pet also feels kinda rushed.
Less time spent on creation is more money in the pockets i guess ;)



Whats left is a really bad taste in my mouth that i wasted money and time on a map that isnt fun, gives crappy loot and pet, and lags like there is no tomorrow.
This was the last release day purchase for me, thats for sure.

Maybe i am not hardcore enough for this map?
Why does TE feels the need to only cater highend players with new content? I really dont get it...

On top of of this we are STILL waiting for some major patches in the meantime.
When can we expect a fix for the rollover-stat-bug???
How long does it take to fix the trade-bug?
Why are people on the map seeing different things?
One has a moved wall (sharken), the other one says its totally fine. Same item with different stats for some players (probably also rollover bug).

I really hope TE starts to understand that the majority of the playerbase is not willing to spend endless hours trying to figure out a map and realise that its useless to continue unless you buy another DLC.
Unfortunately, a big chunk of the (very vocal) forum-users is the minority die hard DD fanbase, that only wants the biggest maps and biggest numbers thrown at them.
If this trend continues, i dont think DD will make it much further.

So let the discussion begin ;)

Coukd you define "Overlord mode not working properly". I've not experienced any difficulties in overlord mode on any of the maps so far, including Talay.

Coukd you define "Overlord mode not working properly". I've not experienced any difficulties in overlord mode on any of the maps so far, including Talay.

If you dont zoom in to the right amount, minions dont move where you tell them to.
It also doesnt help, that there are a lot of layers in your sight, that you have to pass through to get to your target area.

1. The map is definitelly a house of Symmoner by definition. Not only the size, but also new skin and new pet - double rox were just meant for this char.
2. Loot quality - Wave 30 on insane HC MM Aquanos gives about 15 million, while on Talay - more than 25 million. It means something. Not going to break it on NM anytime soon, though.
3. Pet rock - I farmed four of them in one run and they are ALL keepers for my builders. Speed penalty looks unnecessary, but strangely I didn't feel it slowed my building times at all in survival. In fact, now defenses hold much longer which makes up for it.
4. Map layout is great and amazing. Well, I'm a fan of Unreal Tournament series, which have something in common with Talay and it's huge Z-axis actions. However, it may be not the best idea for tower defense, as map is simply HUGE and even maxed EV wall can't cover every lane completely. When I first saw it in digest, I imagined it two times smaller.

Fixing bugs in game (probably buried deep i n the engine) require skill and effort, may be very difficult to do. Making new maps & content in general is basically a free creativity of DDDK user and he is free to do whatever he wants, in fact. Also, new content sells stuff, bugfixing - does not. This is sad truth about marketing & project management :P

so let the discussion begin.. - theres no point, uve laid out ur feelings and obviously nothing we can do to change them. i personally like the map, and find nothing wrong with any of the points u have laid out in this post

I agree about the pet rock being crap. They should either move it to wave 14 or get rid of the encumber effect and keep it at wave 30.

2. Loot quality - Wave 30 on insane HC MM Aquanos gives about 15 million, while on Talay - more than 25 million. It means something. Not going to break it on NM anytime soon, though.

Our one time run surely has no statistical values, but on the same wave on aquanos we get about double the mana.

so let the discussion begin.. - theres no point, uve laid out ur feelings and obviously nothing we can do to change them. i personally like the map, and find nothing wrong with any of the points u have laid out in this post

Im always open for a discussion!
Maybe i dont see what exactly is so good about this map and you can help me figure it out.
Look, if there is more DU and the map runs smooth, maybe it would be more fun.
But as it is now, i can only stand behind my walls and wait for a sharken to attack and finish the game (which takes us at least 30 minutes to set up). People get killed all the time because of lag, so i rather not risk anything.

Our one time run surely has no statistical values, but on the same wave on aquanos we get about double the mana.

Agreed. I've been running from 18-28+ a lot and don't come close to hitting the manacap. Whereas 6 waves of Aqua fills it. I think I went from 100 to 480 on our run last night. About 45m per wave. Aqua can see 100m per wave.

[quote]The given DU is just not enough for higher NM waves (+20)[/quote]Not true. You just can't solo it. But I've made my thoughts clear on this elsewhere.

[quote]Overlord Mode isnt working properly.[/quote] Just. Yes. Quite how they thought this through is beyond me

[quote]Loot quality:[/quote]I've seen lots of trans armour/weapons, lots of myth accessories, but nothing that great - all shopjunk. Completing this map is for bragging rights, not for loot.

[quote]Why does TE feels the need to only cater highend players with new content?[/quote]
I guess I'm the only one here who thinks this, but I really really like that there is a map focused at a team of 3000+ geared players. Aqua mix (arguably the current hardest content) is really not very hard at all. Karathiki is technically the hardest, but it's boring. 4 spawns, (really 2 mirrored spawns) and a huge wasteland between them, where you just sit around repairing, This is a complicated map, with many, many build options (we're still finding ways to optimise, and new places to create chokes), that offers a genuine run-around-during-combat-no-way-to-afk challenge.
I approve.

[quote]realise that its useless to continue unless you buy another DLC.[/quote]People who buy DLC buy DLC. And there are plenty of summoners out there if you want to open your game up.

If you dont zoom in to the right amount, minions dont move where you tell them to.
It also doesnt help, that there are a lot of layers in your sight, that you have to pass through to get to your target area.

The trick for Talay is to go into overlord mode near one of the middle crystals. By that I mean the middle vertically. So that you need less time to zoom up or down. It does take a bit of time to adapt.

And you have to realize that overlord mode isn't always the best way to repair. Sometimes you have to just go out and walk/fly there instead.

Also, when you are in overlord mode, mobs will only have your defenses to target. So your walls and towers and minions will take more damage. It's worth it sometimes to give the mobs a target.

Also, new content sells stuff, bugfixing - does not. This is sad truth about marketing & project management :P

At least for me, that isnt the case.
If a product is not up to my standards, i wont recommend it to anyone else.
You have to spend money to make money, and this business is no exception.
I am just reminded of Age of Empires Online all over again, where releasing new DLC had much higher priority than fixing long due bugs.
I like TEs way of listening to the community, thats not the issue here, but those bugs mentioned are in the game for a while now, and everytime i ask "when can we have a fix for this???", i get no answer.

I guess I'm the only one here who thinks this, but I really really like that there is a map focused at a team of 3000+ geared players. Aqua mix (arguably the current hardest content) is really not very hard at all. Karathiki is technically the hardest, but it's boring. 4 spawns, (really 2 mirrored spawns) and a huge map, where you just sit around repairing. This is a complicated map, with many, many build options (we're still finding ways to optimise, and new places to create chokes), that offers a genuine run-around-during-combat-no-way-to-afk challenge.
I approve.

People who buy DLC buy DLC. And there are plenty of summoners out there if you want to open your game up.

For some people, that dont get challenged by any of the maps on NMHCMM, this is obviously true, but thats a minority.
I think the focus shifted too much to - higher/bigger/harder/better/omgwtf - loot and maps.
Just give the casual player something exiting and new also? Wouldnt hurt the diehards, would it?

Do you really think trendy will take you seriously when you present your ideas with such arrogance? Imagine walking up to a politician, and the first thing you say to him is, "I ****ing hate your hairstyle", do you really think he will listen to your ideas afterwards? Of course not. Same applies here, if you have some suggestions, do not make yourself look like a total asshat.

Well, if you put it together like that, i really come across quite douch my apologies.
Maybe i was just too passionate with this post and couldnt find other words to express myself.
Either way, what happens in the interweb stays in the interweb.
I try to be more calm from here on out ;) (seriously)

Edit:
Sorry for doublepost

I think the focus shifted too much to - higher/bigger/harder/better/omgwtf - loot and maps.
Just give the casual player something exiting and new also? Wouldnt hurt the diehards, would it?

Uhm.
If there are still maps you're trying to beat, then you already have something exciting.
As for new, this map is still a fun challenge on hard or insane. You don't have to beat nightmare for it to be new.

Uhm.
If there are still maps you're trying to beat, then you already have something exciting.
As for new, this map is still a fun challenge on hard or insane. You don't have to beat nightmare for it to be new.

He does have a point, though: the newer maps are designed for 6 people. I don't mean that they just allow 6 people to join, but they are intended to be played with multiple people. I guess that's ok if you have enough stats to effectively count as multiple players, but you're the minority.

I guess what I'm saying is that I feel tricked that I bought a map that I can't play because I don't have the stats to play by myself or enough friends to account for my lower gear quality.

Ay it would be nice to next time give an indication at to what statsrange a map is aimed at. I bought this map, if I had known beforehand that I just don't have the stats to do it (only 1000 on my barb) while he was building... I would not have bought the map.

But besides that, can we pleeeeaaaasssseeeee get a map that is smaller. I am getting tired of these big maps. I want a nice and little map. it has been since forges that I have encountered one... and it would be nice to once again have one of those to get some upgrades... Since I can't do aquanos NM HC anymore because I lack the stats... (and yes i had no problem whatsoever with insane) and honestly i'm tired of farming for mana to upgrade and farm for new stuff to farm for more mana to upgrade so i can farm another map for new stuff.

Can we pretty please stop this entire evolution it just sucks...

He does have a point, though: the newer maps are designed for 6 people. I don't mean that they just allow 6 people to join, but they are intended to be played with multiple people. I guess that's ok if you have enough stats to effectively count as multiple players, but you're the minority.

I don't. Well, I mean, my builders are around 3000, and DPS around 1600 health/2200 damage. But anyone can get those stats with a few runs of aqua. Kandar's build is foolproof if you have 1800 stats. I know, because that's where I was when I started running Aqua. After 5 or 6 runs, all my builders improved ridiculously, and each time I run it, I find at least one upgrade.

In addition, my friend has a summoner, and I have the map pack. He builds minions, then we open the game. Takes a few minutes to find a full crew, but no longer than it takes to build. Sure, you spend a lot of time kicking people with negative resists, but it's far from impossible. I know, because it's what I do, every single I time I want to farm a monkey, farm a djinnlet, farm a magic lamp or run Talay. It's what I had to do to beat cliffs past 25 to get the achievement. Rather than bash my head against the solo wall, then rage impotently here about how solo is impossible, I'd rather spend my playing time playing, even if it means I have to spend a little time filtering for capable pickups.

In addition, if someone is noticeably capable, you can add them as a friend, and they might be available next time you want to play.

If you insist on playing solo despite the ease with which you can find other players, then yes, my whole case falls apart. But that's just you being deliberately obstinate.

[quote]I guess what I'm saying is that I feel tricked that I bought a map that I can't play because I don't have the stats to play by myself or enough friends to account for my lower gear quality.[/QUOTE]I still don't understand this overwhelming desire to be able to complete end game content (on nightmare) with less than end game gear.
Can someone explain how it suddenly becomes less fun, exciting and new just because you do it on insane? Is it a challenge? then surely that's the entire point? Do you want to steamroll the new content, or do you want a feeling of accomplishment? And the pet drops are still pretty damned good.

Don't you want additional challenges waiting for you when you do gear up properly? Or do you want to be in a position where you are so overpowered, you can throw together a random build and just smash a map to pieces? At least for me, that isn't fun. The thing I like about games (and this game in particular) is a challenge. That I have to spend a bit of time perfecting a build that works. Looking to see where things work, and where they don't.

tl;dr Undergeared players can struggle through insane and have a lot of fun. Overgeared players can have a really fun time struggling on nightmare. Surely that way everyone wins?



[quote]Ay it would be nice to next time give an indication at to what statsrange a map is aimed at. I bought this map, if I had known beforehand that I just don't have the stats to do it (only 1000 on my barb) while he was building... I would not have bought the map.

But besides that, can we pleeeeaaaasssseeeee get a map that is smaller. I am getting tired of these big maps.[/quote]All the 6 man maps have been big, and pretty much require a good team. The fact that this map was 6 man should have been the clue there.

[quote]I want a nice and little map.[/quote]
I don't disagree with this, actually. A new pack with 2 smaller maps would be very welcome.


[quote]and honestly i'm tired of farming for mana to upgrade and farm for new stuff to farm for more mana to upgrade so i can farm another map for new stuff.[/quote]But... but... that's all there really is to the game once you've completed maps on campaign mode. The only reason to play is to farm better gear so you can farm better gear.

Zing, you are missing the point. The game says "up to 6 players", NOT "minimum X players".

You keep arguing that it's for multiple players, where did it say that? I live in an awkward timezone, sometimes I can't group well. I know that's my problem, but every map should be soloable, even if it's decently hard. This is near impossible.

The challenge map however is fun and challenging.

I still don't understand this overwhelming desire to be able to complete end game content (on nightmare) with less than end game gear.

There was NOWHERE an indication that this is an endgame map. All it says that it is a new map. For me the evolution is and should always be : easy, medium, hard, insane, nightmare. And not such a mess as it is now.

Can someone explain how it suddenly becomes less fun, exciting and new just because you do it on insane? Is it a challenge? then surely that's the entire point?

insane isn't/ wasn't a challenge.

Do you want to steamroll the new content, or do you want a feeling of accomplishment?

Neither interest me.

Don't you want additional challenges waiting for you when you do gear up properly?

No, I don't see the draw to play a map, gear up, play another map, gear up, play the next map, gear up. If I want such a grind, i'll go to work.

Or do you want to be in a position where you are so overpowered, you can throw together a random build and just smash a map to pieces?

Nothing to do with overpoweredness. Just offers some choice in how you play. instead of that one and only 1 build is optimal and makes you able to pass it. I want to be able to use different ways to play the map. Today a map based on proxy mines, tomorrow infernos, the day after electrical auras. choice is the spice of life, that is what keeps me playing again. If I have to do a map 3 times in exact the same fashion... I'm sorry but that is just no fun.

At least for me, that isn't fun. The thing I like about games (and this game in particular) is a challenge. That I have to spend a bit of time perfecting a build that works. Looking to see where things work, and where they don't.

Fortunately tastes are different. But I am however getting sick and tired that to your tastes has been catered for so long. Maybe it is time to cater to someone elses tastes as well?

tl;dr Undergeared players can struggle through insane and have a lot of fun. Overgeared players can have a really fun time struggling on nightmare. Surely that way everyone wins?

I'm overgeared for insane, undergeared for nightmare. Where do I win?

Yes. It does. I'm not missing the point. It says "up to 6 players". It doesn't say "up to 6 players, but you know what? One player with relatively crappy gear can beat it on nightmare just fine".

Once we've got our build sorted out, I'll post it, or Shary will.
Yes, I'll test it for solo.
Yes you will need a summoner.
No, it won't be easy.
Yes, you will need very good stats (perhaps you could get a head start on good stats by farming insane for rocks?).

But it will be solo possible.

I promise to drop this if someone can explain why having a damn hard challenge on insane is somehow a worse playing experience.

Yes. It does. I'm not missing the point. It says "up to 6 players". It doesn't say "up to 6 players, but you know what? One player with relatively crappy gear can beat it on nightmare just fine".

Once we've got our build sorted out, I'll post it, or Shary will.
Yes, I'll test it for solo.
Yes you will need a summoner.
No, it won't be easy.
Yes, you will need very good stats (perhaps you could get a head start on good stats by farming insane for rocks?).

But it will be solo possible.

I promise to drop this if someone can explain why having a damn hard challenge on insane is somehow a worse playing experience.

No one is saying a challenge isn't fun. The amount of times I have failed already on that and Volcano before I completed them both was ridiculous. However I beat them, and even Volcano on NMHC. It was fun.

I'm saying it can still be fun with an appropriate amount of DU.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't really have a problem with TE designing maps around either having the Summoner or being impossible to solo without one. If they are going to do this than they should really give a heads up that the map is going to be designed like this. "Supports up to 6 people" needs to be reworded. "Intended for 2 or more players" would prolly be better (something like that; you get the idea). With that being said, I wouldn't necessarily oppose an increase in DU.

While they are at it, they also need to rework the recommended level. My theory is they base that on easy (which is laughable). IMO they should either base it around NM (at least insane) or be done with it all together. The only purpose it serve (as far as I can see) is to make people feel bad when they can't beat something when they are ten levels above the RL. /offtopic

My tip of advise would be if you see a map that is labeled as "Supports up to 6 players" you need to reread that as "going to be very difficult if not impossible to solo without best gear and/or DLC characters" for your own peace of mind. Not saying it's right, but ATM that's the way it seems to be.

It is what it is. Sorry you dont like it.

While they are at it, they also need to rework the recommended level. My theory is they base that on easy (which is laughable). IMO they should either base it around NM (at least insane) or be done with it all together.

I assume it's based on normal. Basing it on nightmare would be silly, and to a lesser degree insane. The 'Recommended Level' for every map would simply be 74+ in that case.

I assume it's based on normal. Basing it on nightmare would be silly, and to a lesser degree insane. The 'Recommended Level' for every map would simply be 74+ in that case.

Honestly, it should just be removed completely because it really has more to do with gear than level. Regardless, we're off topic :-P

I bought the DLC, took a look around the map on Easy, realised there was no way to solo it on harder levels (certainly with my 2000+ stats at the moment) and quit without even starting the first wave. Another big map like the Jungle one that I also never bother with as I (almost) exclusively solo.

I like DunDef, but it is obvious they're driving away from the solo model, which in my opinion is a shame, but when only the team stuff is left there are plenty of other games out there!

Go back to simple type maps like the release of the game. They can be bigger, but enough with the over abundant geometry getting in the way of this game. How many map fixes and bugs are gonna happen until someone with half a brain realizes the "keep it simple stupid" method might actually work here.....?

I agree with the OP. But I decided to finally go back and try this map on NM HC solo and with the mana increase and time increase, it was just enough to get a descent setup on first wave and after that it was smooth sailing for me to solo and I used summoner in case anyone asks. Now NM HC Volcano Eruption is very improbable.