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Paid for DD + shard DLC, but game is now useless


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"Hey guys, I'm trying to progress through survival and I don't have an EV. It feels like it's impossible to do; can anyone give me some tips or maybe even help me out with working on an EVless build? Here's what I have so far, any advise would be much appreciated"

I guarantee this thread would be completely different, and there might even be some of that 'proof' that you desire so much.

There's a lot to be said for this point- What I was getting at with bringign up claims and warrants wasn't merely me trying to tear down your warrant- Even allowing for significantly better warrant, your claim is HUGE. Impossible is a strong word, sir, and blowing your claim up like that isn't going to be conductive to positive responses, it's going to elicit equally strongly-worded rebuttals, and turn into, well, what this thread has become- A giant logjam where everyone's invested too much to admit any fault.

Now, that said... I'll concede my points may have been more harshly worded in select phrasings than was necessary. Even allowing an expanded warrant, though, like I said... Your claim is just too big.

Now then, to go to work on some more faulty assertions. Sorry.


Exactly—and the case is the same for the statement of impossibility. The point being, if you want to progress far in the game, you need an EV. So, even if you were to clear an end-game Survival w/o an EV, you'd probably need one to be able to get to that point in the first place.

Now, if I saw someone clear, say, Aquanos HCMM w/o an EV, regardless of how they got their stats, I'd assume that the other stages they cleared to get the stats can also be done w/o an EV—so I wouldn't go that far (when stats get that high, the diminishing returns are substantial, and this game is very much about build content/preciseness than it is about purely stats)—but since you brought it up, that point works more for my point than it does yours. xD


This, my friend, is called moving the goalposts. It's a cute little logical fallacy anyone who's read more than three of your posts had every reason to believe you would not hesitate to engage in. This is exactly why no-one cares enough to take time out of their lives to give you the proof of non-impossibility you repeatedly demand to counter-indicate -your- claim.

Your arguments also rest on a somewhat unspoken premise that in order to progress, you must be able to clear a full match of nightmare survival to round 25 and beyond. This is faulty too, as gear drops every wave. You're at the mercy of the Random Number God, sure, and getting farther is pretty much always better, but as things are, getting better is always gonna require some grind. At best, the series EV helps free up some DU. It oils the gears of grinding a little, maybe. But you can get noticeably better results with a good guardian. Yes, guardians have range limits and can only affect 5 towers at a time. But you can also keep an eye on the battlefield, and move them where they are needed.

I'd also like to take a moment to address a few points about DLC heroes and 'pay to win' arguments. Yes, new content will usually bring with it new abilities and options, and yes, these will generally improve the capabilities of people's builds. That's because it's new content. The whole point is to provide people with more options. The only way to avoid this absolutely is to completely ensure that new content is exactly the same as old content, with only graphical differences. Hell, you could make the argument that the off-gender 'new heros' dlc is 'pay to win', since insane and nightmare have build timers, and the enhanced speed offers an advantage there. Sure survival doesn't, but you need to win to unlock survival.
I'd personally rather continue to see new things breathe more life into a game we all enjoy. And if trendy's gonna keep making content, they're gonna need to keep making money to do so. They aren't a charity.
Listen, I'm as loathe to hand over my cash as the next guy. But they aren't cutting out the ability to use the color black in character customization to sell back to you. They aren't putting out anything that completely steamrolls all other options, either. Heck, that's pretty hard to do in a game where you can switch characters so freely. I say let them make whatever goodies they want. And if they gotta charge a -very- reasonable price for it, so be it. It's clearly new stuff, and it's fun.

I do think the progression from insane to nightmare has to be looked at, and I'd love for the Random Number God to be a bit less... old testament, to continue the metaphor. But we do have to keep in mind that we did all basically buy into a long-running beta with nightmare. It's a work in progress, always has been. And hopefully by the time it's finalized, Trendy will have put in some tiem to work out the kinks of the transition.

Best of luck defending those crystals,
-VC

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ok.. first off.. dundef retailed at 15$.. so you did not pay 30+ for the game... theres your first lie.


1) DD + DLC = how much? about $30. GG. Your ignorant/naive first statement make me TLDR your post. sorry.

2) guys, I have three serious heroes, trapper is roughly 1600 avg builder, and my squire is roughly 2000 avg builder. Tertiary monk is roughly 1500 avg builder. I cannot get past lvl 21 with a multi hero build because of all the new units, like sharken. Theres a lot of argument of how ev buff beam helps. any tower, including harpoon/ shield/traps benefit from buff beam, which means you need less DU for potentially damage, and focus more on defense and auras, and etc.

Reading a lot of these replies, I can tell some of you are hardcore die hard loyalists. The rest of you, see my point. For all those die hard loyalists, try going beyond wave 21+ on moraggo or misty WITHOUT EV help, solo. I'm pretty sure youre going to fail hard. use ddplanner all you want.

It took FOREVER to get a hero that has a 2k (rough) tower stat average, and i dont think i can get much higher unless i upgrade to supreme items. I use a mix of hi end transcendent and mythical gear. my trapper, squire, and monk are higher stats than average, but still cant dent beyond wave 20 or so.

So tell me, why can I not even get to level 25 for a pet? yeah. Before you tell me "oh well you suck at building and at life and this game...blah blah blah". I probably spend more time on this game than most who have posted on this thread.

Of course, its great to see that the hackers, like those with PERFECT gear crush game. -_-"

it's discouraging to see that even for an enthusiastic player like myself, I am unable to dent high level survivals without the money grab.

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[quote]You can answer any claim of impossibility with that—and the points you made before that didn't present anything new. This summary has exactly the same assumptions of "proving impossibility" that I pointed out before, dude. "You've got to have better gear," or "You're not doing it right," etc. That's precisely what I already said would happen, though I didn't expect it to happen a few posts after I pointed it out.

I'm not sure if you meant to be subtlety insulting with the "good boy" comment and such (I'm assuming it's just a difference of interpretation between the two of us), but for someone who apparently expected all the right arguments, I'd expect to have to concede immediately.[/quote]

Perhaps I should have bolded the word "solo" there. I wasn't pointing out you need very good gear (duh), I'm just pointing out that, if you wish to play solo without series EV, you're going to need nearly perfect gear to beat the endgame content. In fact, as soon as I realized how exactly the buff beams worked, the first thing I thought was "Oh man this is going to be great for playing solo". That and "yay I can use dps pets now" :D

The "good boy" was meant as more of a "you've activated my trap" sentiment. I love it when someone comes up with the counterargument I was expecting while I made my arguments. It makes me think those people are logical. I like logical people.

As VonCrown mentioned though (nice post by the way), both sides are too invested in this argument. This is the kind of claim that doesn't allow for a sufficient answer, unless someone finishes aquanos without series EV and with lower stats than the people who are objecting to the idea of it being possible. Since that's the only "hard" proof that could possibly be gathered. The main question of those who think it is possible is to come up with a good reason series EV is absolutely necessary. "Everybody uses him now" and "buff beams + her walls are awesome" haven't cut it so far.

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2) guys, I have three serious heroes, trapper is roughly 1600 avg builder, and my squire is roughly 2000 avg builder. Tertiary monk is roughly 1500 avg builder.

All the stats. For trapper and monk, hero damage is pretty much the least important stat. Range and attack rate are absoultely vital. For squire, attack rate is key, and without EV, range is also vital.

Do you have a dedicated waller? If not, you'll need one. 1500 wall health is not enough for those later-wave ogres.

The monk's most important stat is range. If you have ****ty small auras with less than 1800 radius (again, without the EV), you're going to struggle.

Trapper is attack rate. The shorter the time between bomb triggers, the less damage your walls see. Mine's at 1500, and I consider it way too low.


[quote]Reading a lot of these replies, I can tell some of you are hardcore die hard loyalists. The rest of you, see my point. For all those die hard loyalists, try going beyond wave 21+ on moraggo or misty WITHOUT EV help, solo. I'm pretty sure youre going to fail hard. use ddplanner all you want.[/quote]
Did it long before EV came out, while djinn were around. The only changes to builds we ever needed from djinn -> sharken was to push the gas traps out further.

[quote]It took FOREVER to get a hero that has a 2k (rough) tower stat average, and i dont think i can get much higher unless i upgrade to supreme items.[/quote]Not true at all. My trapper has 2200/2600/1500/1500 with all myth (apart from a trans gun). And it's all gear farmed from misty (apart from the gun - puzzle of the deep). The max possible stat with myth is 2712. The reason I went high on trap damage with the trapper is because prox mines used to be a lot more viable.

[quote]So tell me, why can I not even get to level 25 for a pet? yeah. Before you tell me "oh well you suck at building and at life and this game...blah blah blah". [/quote]Because you play solo. The EV is the ultimate tool for solo players who can't field 2+ guardians, and can't be everywhere at once to heal. You need friends.

How many times have you wiped on Misty? 10? 20? How many hours is that? What's your time worth to you? If you refuse to play with others (and your comment below indicates why this might be), then you need to consider if spending another 50 hours smashing your head against the wall is worth more to you than $4.

[quote] I probably spend a lot of time understanding and building this game, more time more so than the lot of you.[/quote]That just makes you sound like a complete asshat. And you wonder why no-one wants to help you?

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It's not like Trendy have slapped a whole bunch of DLC straight after release of the title. Nothing has been more then 3.50 and they have been spread out over quite an extended period of time the game has been out for 9 months now so far there have been 21 DLC's bear in mind quite a lot of them were free for quite a long time eight if i remember correctly of which two are still free. So basically of the DLC to date you have only had to pay for about 15 of them which works out to be roughly 3 DLC's every 2 months. Total price of current 21 DLC's 37.81 which average out to you paying 1.80 per DLC even if you payed for them all not including the free ones then it would be even less. If you can afford internet and a PC then it's really not that expensive at all hell a two piece chicken and chips is more expensive then one DLC and I know which I enjoy more. (The DLC just incase you didn't realize...)

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Fair call mate, I'll admit I'm getting confused as to who has said what I'm this thread, it's going downhill fast and just frustrating everybody.

So uh... Sorry for that. Seriously.

No worries. :)

This, my friend, is called moving the goalposts. It's a cute little logical fallacy anyone who's read more than three of your posts had every reason to believe you would not hesitate to engage in. This is exactly why no-one cares enough to take time out of their lives to give you the proof of non-impossibility you repeatedly demand to counter-indicate -your- claim.

Ah! I didn't know it had a name—it's good that I said I wouldn't go that far, though. My logic-gears are, at least, turning correctly. As for the, "had every reason to believe..." comment; it was frankly an unnecessary comment—not very productive to the conversation— unless I'm misinterpreting you. Maybe I'm too used to being on the internet.

Your arguments also rest on a somewhat unspoken premise that in order to progress, you must be able to clear a full match of nightmare survival to round 25 and beyond. This is faulty too, as gear drops every wave. You're at the mercy of the Random Number God, sure, and getting farther is pretty much always better, but as things are, getting better is always gonna require some grind. At best, the series EV helps free up some DU. It oils the gears of grinding a little, maybe. But you can get noticeably better results with a good guardian. Yes, guardians have range limits and can only affect 5 towers at a time. But you can also keep an eye on the battlefield, and move them where they are needed.

I... don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. I think you're saying something like:

-You don't have to get to higher, end-game waves to get better equipment. You still get some good equipment at lower-waves, albeit at a much lower frequency.
-The EV will make lower-waves easier, but isn't a necessity for lower waves
- Therefore it's not impossible to progress w/o the EV, assuming progression is defined as getting better equipment.


I think. If that isn't what you're saying, feel free to correct me. No one's disputing that there'll be some grinding either way.

If that's the case though, then yes, this is absolutely true. If progression is more loosly defined as, "Getting better equipment," as opposed to the spoken (by both sides) premise that progression is totally clearing an end-game Survival, I 100% agree. In fact, don't think anyone will disagree—but changing the premise of what progression is only changes the claim: "Progressing in the game is much, much, much easier with an EV than it is w/o one. So much easier that not getting the EV and trying to 'progress' is like trying to win the lottery, because you'd have to rely only on the hope that you get Wave 25+ quality loot on much earlier waves."

The re-worded claim is, again, one that I feel is true. Though all that does is complicate the issue. I could go into a short tangent as to why both "progressions" are very similar—and generally conclude similarly—but working with one is much more difficult to prove/disprove claims in than working with the other.

So we have:
"Progression: Clearing an end-game Survival map"
- Clearing an end-game Survival map is impossible without the use of an EV.

"Progression: Getting better equipment."
- Getting better equipment is much more difficult, much more time consuming, requires more grinding, with much less guarantee w/o an EV—because, w/o an EV, you'd have to stick to the low waves and hope for high-wave loot.

Um... pick one, I guess?

(Furthermore, I think the 2nd one makes the issue more convoluted considering we obviously have differing opinions on the extent of the EV's use. We'd have to define what "low waves" are. I think the EV is more necssary than you do, so when I think "low waves", I think waves 1 - 10—maybe even up to 15. You might think waves 18 - 24 are "low waves". It's far easier to use "progression" as we've been using it—because you have a clearly, easily defined conclusion which also covers getting better equipment.)

The unspoken-of premise you mentioned was actually pretty spoken of by both sides. Changing it as (again, I think) you propose to do would make things a lot messier.

Relevant to your other statements:
I very much like the EV. I have no problem with it being necessary for progression, nor do I have a problem with paying Trendy for classes like the EV and the Summoner or DLCs like the Shards-pack. I currently totally approve of the way they're releasing their content and would probably had paid more for DD had I known it would be so fun. I have zero problem with paying Trendy for new content, and I have zero problem with the content they've released. That being said, I still say it's impossible to clear end-game Survival w/o an EV. :D

I very much agree with Darkman_0, though, and that is all I—and others—have been saying.
[The only way a sufficiant answer can be found is if] someone finishes aquanos without series EV and with lower stats than the people who are objecting to the idea of it being possible. Since that's the only "hard" proof that could possibly be gathered.

Personally, I don't even care about the stats, I just want to see it done, because I don't believe it's possible. There's no other way of proving it is—and the absense of evidence is the evidence of absense, so, so far, the naysayers have the evidence.

And do you really expect the people saying it's impossible to go out and prove that it's possible, when they think it's impossible? O.o The people saying it's impossible have no reason to try it, not the other way around.

Darkman: My mistake; I agree, you would need nearly perfect gear (assuming, as you are, it's possible).

(Sorry everyone for the formatting of this post. I can't help but to see it as very messy.)

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1) DD + DLC = how much? about $30. GG. Your ignorant/naive first statement make me TLDR your post. sorry.

2) guys, I have three serious heroes, trapper is roughly 1600 avg builder, and my squire is roughly 2000 avg builder. Tertiary monk is roughly 1500 avg builder. I cannot get past lvl 21 with a multi hero build because of all the new units, like sharken. Theres a lot of argument of how ev buff beam helps. any tower, including harpoon/ shield/traps benefit from buff beam, which means you need less DU for potentially damage, and focus more on defense and auras, and etc.

Reading a lot of these replies, I can tell some of you are hardcore die hard loyalists. The rest of you, see my point. For all those die hard loyalists, try going beyond wave 21+ on moraggo or misty WITHOUT EV help, solo. I'm pretty sure youre going to fail hard. use ddplanner all you want.

It took FOREVER to get a hero that has a 2k (rough) tower stat average, and i dont think i can get much higher unless i upgrade to supreme items. I use a mix of hi end transcendent and mythical gear. my trapper, squire, and monk are higher stats than average, but still cant dent beyond wave 20 or so.

So tell me, why can I not even get to level 25 for a pet? yeah. Before you tell me "oh well you suck at building and at life and this game...blah blah blah". I probably spend more time on this game than most who have posted on this thread.

Of course, its great to see that the hackers, like those with PERFECT gear crush game. -_-"

it's discouraging to see that even for an enthusiastic player like myself, I am unable to dent high level survivals without the money grab.


Well you didnt do everything i asked, but close enough. If you message me via steam (use my steam community in my sig) id be happy to provide some more insight. For now some ideas for you.

1. Are you using gas traps to control sharken/gins? i find one well placed (unbuffed) gas trap can control an entire lane.

2. Try switching your gear to an app, i personally find fireball towers to be more effective at clearing gas traps and ensuring sharks die.

3. A dedicated waller set with 2k tower HP would be helpful

3. Stop worrying about the prefix on armor. Myth armor can be pretty amazing.

4. If you would provide a copy of your build id be happy to take a look and make suggestions.

Also i was clearing misty/morago before the EV. It was much harder, but it was doable.

Also remember also the game scales with player count. with one player the mob count is minimal and they all have low HP.

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If you can afford internet and a PC then it's really not that expensive at all hell a two piece chicken and chips is more expensive then one DLC and I know which I enjoy more. (The DLC just incase you didn't realize...)


I'm so sick of reading this stupid argument, from both gamers and developers alike... Who the f**k are YOU to tell ME what I can afford and what I can't? Who are YOU to assume that I'm some vapid, consumer-electronics-hungry hipster with more than enough money to spend on all the latest toys, guzzling down Starbucks and fast food on a daily basis?

Maybe I'm living paycheck to paycheck, with barely enough "disposable" income to buy just two or three games per year to keep me somewhat happy? Or what if I'm unemployed, looking for work and broke as hell? What if I've been applying for jobs and going to interviews all day long, and one of the FEW pleasures I can still thankfully get out of life is playing a video game for an hour or so each night?

These scenarios are far more common among gamers than people like you must realize, or you wouldn't be spouting that patronizing crap in the first place. Yeah, for some people, $2 to $4 is too much to ask of them, especially when they're being asked to fork it over every other week. (And yeah, of course we know that nobody HAS to buy it; do you really think that painfully obvious fact is somehow eluding everyone who complains?) The reason they ***** is because they want their Dungeon Defenders gameplay experience to stay relevant, and that's just not possible unless you've purchased the majority of the DLC.

So as a customer, am I still not entitled to ***** and moan when I've seen a pattern emerging throughout the past six months, with Trendy releasing paid DLC every other week? Some of which is vital to serious gameplay? That's not my right, as a friggin' customer? Really? As someone who's already spent $40 to $50 and doesn't appreciate being nickel-and-dimed by the company they've been supporting all the way back since launch?

Don't forget; Trendy is a for-profit company, not some altruistic, self-sacrificing organization that we're entitled to patronize on principle alone. From the way that some of you spout this crap on the forums, you'd think that "indie developers" have some kind of intrinsic power that warrants us, as customers, to just blindly throw our money at their feet, without question or complaint...

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Personally, I don't even care about the stats, I just want to see it done, because I don't believe it's possible. There's no other way of proving it is—and the absense of evidence is the evidence of absense, so, so far, the naysayers have the evidence.


Well my point was more that it's impossible to do with most of the stats people are walking around with, and that progressing into a better set of armor takes some time as well. That's obviously going to be a first priority. The part of my post you quoted was mostly meant to illustrate how neither side is willing to give in. Nobody is going to change his mind when someone can't finish a survival, unless a myriad of details are checked, and neither will the other camp if someone was to finish a survival.

I also doubt people are going to play a survival without EV just to finish this argument. Not just because survival takes a while, but also because it would take multiple people. Like most people, I'd love to see it happen, but at the same token I'm not expecting too much.

[quote]And do you really expect the people saying it's impossible to go out and prove that it's possible, when they think it's impossible? O.o The people saying it's impossible have no reason to try it, not the other way around.[/quote]

Well the ones who don't have a series EV, they kind of have to keep trying to keep getting better loot. They may not even be trying to prove anything with it, that's the beauty :D

I'd try to beat mistymire myself if I could beat that in the first place. I need to find a working build first. Haven't been able to beat it since the introduction of sharken. Mostly 'cause I only played it once though :D

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Man! You just can't play this game anymore withotu a summoner!
Ok cats and dogs, have at it for another 14 pages!
:p

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I'm so sick of reading this stupid argument, from both gamers and developers alike... Who the f**k are YOU to tell ME what I can afford and what I can't? Who are YOU to assume that I'm some vapid, consumer-electronics-hungry hipster with more than enough money to spend on all the latest toys, guzzling down Starbucks and fast food on a daily basis?

We're not. Spending 3/$4 is not the same buying the latest iGadget at launch, and having a boutique coffee every day.

[quote]Maybe I'm living paycheck to paycheck, with barely enough "disposable" income to buy just two or three games per year to keep me somewhat happy? Or what if I'm unemployed, looking for work and broke as hell? What if I've been applying for jobs and going to interviews all day long, and one of the FEW pleasures I can still thankfully get out of life is playing a video game for an hour or so each night?[/quote]
And I object to this argument. There's plenty of work out there. It's just pride which determines what you'll do. I've done jobs including working at an abbatoir, sweeping streets, working at mcdonalds, working in a call centre and washing dishes. All of these at minimum wage. Some of these I found through a job centre. Others by simply walking into the store and asking if they had any work at all.
And at times when I couldn't afford the things I wanted, I'd supplement with another part time job, or pick up an extra shift.
The local council will literally NEVER turn away someone who wants to sweep the streets. I had a stright male friend who worked for a non-straight (*** is banned?) sex text network for 5p per text from home to cover bills at one point. He could clear an extra 100 or so per week, while watching TV, and had some great stories to tell.

If you're only playing for an hour, you're not doing survival, and the whole EV thing is moot anyway.
If you're playing long enough to do survivals (3+ hours per night) then you have time for another part time job. Which will cover your EV costs.

I'll say it again. No-one is making you buy the EV. No-one is making you put in 200 hours to get to the point where you can farm survival. If we skip the argument itself and just agree that the EV is actually required for late stage survival, then you still have a choice. If you're at that point, and struggling without the EV, then you have enough free time in your life to get another job, and find the money somewhere. Don't say people might be too poor. That's entirely their choice.

If you choose not to buy the EV on moral grounds, because you don't like gaming companies nickel and diming you, then go find another game. Screaming on a forum is one thing. Speaking with your wallet is quite another.

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And I object to this argument. There's plenty of work out there. It's just pride which determines what you'll do. I've done jobs including working at an abbatoir, sweeping streets, working at mcdonalds, working in a call centre and washing dishes. All of these at minimum wage. Some of these I found through a job centre. Others by simply walking into the store and asking if they had any work at all.
The local council will literally NEVER turn away someone who wants to sweep the streets.


I am quite happy for you that where you live you can walk into the city council and be guaranteed a job. Unfortunately this statement is not entirely true for the rest of the world. Also there are some areas of the the world (and the US) where there isnt really work. While i agree with the vast majority of what you have had to say in this thread, and much of what you had to say in that post. However while your statements may reflect the employment conditions in your area, please dont go so far as to assume that it is the same around the world, it makes you sound, well, ignorant, which is not the impression i have gotten from your other posts.

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I am quite happy for you that where you live you can walk into the city council and be guaranteed a job. Unfortunately this statement is not entirely true for the rest of the world. Also there are some areas of the the world (and the US) where there isnt really work. While i agree with the vast majority of what you have had to say in this thread, and much of what you had to say in that post. However while your statements may reflect the employment conditions in your area, please dont go so far as to assume that it is the same around the world, it makes you sound, well, ignorant, which is not the impression i have gotten from your other posts.

Assuming we're talking about the western world here (I spent a lot of time across the middle east and africa, including Palestine, Libya and Zimbabwe, so I'm not including places where the jobs simply don't exist due to major political issues, and let's skip Greece too), the only thing preventing people getting a job is their pride. There are plenty of jobs out there. It's how much you care about how you're perceived, and how "low" you're prepared to go, and how much initiative you have that determines if you can find one.
If you have a university education and can't find a job related to your area of training, but refuse to work in chicken cottage mopping floors while you continue to look, that's very much because you have too much pride, not because the job doesn't exist. Pubs, coffee shops, fast food restaurants - they all need part time staff to cover shifts.
If you have no education at all, you probably also don't have a credit card, and can't buy from steam anyway, and shouldn't be playing games when you should be getting a diploma.

There is no "I can't afford 3" excuse that is valid for anyone who is at the stage where they might genuinely need the EV. The only reasonable objection is a moral one, and that's a choice you make, not a situation you're forced into.

Edit. Now with added research. Nevada has the US's highest unemployment: http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm)
The fastest growing sectors in Nevada require no college degree: http://www.lvrj.com/news/study-fastest-growing-nevada-jobs-don-t-require-college-degree-149158285.html

In the UK, Middlesbrough has the highest unemployment (or so the BBC tells me). Here are some part time jobs that are on the council webiste which require no training. https://www.northeastjobs.org.uk/default.aspx?page=search&module=jobs-userlist&mode=7&guid=e5e48bb6-485a-4db0-bb95-2b7b41244631

That took me 5 minutes to research. If you spent even a fraction of the time you would otherspend playing games, you'd find something.

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Wax,

I'll say this: DD is one of the best values I've ever gotten for my money. I logged ~200 hours on my initial $15 investment - that's ~$0.13/hour. I think only TF2 beats this in games I've bought (paid $20, played ~700 hours).

I can still enjoy the base game, and so can you: ignore the loot/gear grind, ignore NM, play with friends, and take up interesting self challenges or 'silly'/fun play styles (like only using bowling ball turrets on maps without flyers).

Edit: Let's not turn this into a jobs discussion: why don't we stay positive and on topic (on DD)? :)

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(Furthermore, I think the 2nd one makes the issue more convoluted considering we obviously have differing opinions on the extent of the EV's use. We'd have to define what "low waves" are. I think the EV is more necssary than you do, so when I think "low waves", I think waves 1 - 10maybe even up to 15. You might think waves 18 - 24 are "low waves". It's far easier to use "progression" as we've been using itbecause you have a clearly, easily defined conclusion which also covers getting better equipment.)

The unspoken-of premise you mentioned was actually pretty spoken of by both sides. Changing it as (again, I think) you propose to do would make things a lot messier.


I had a lot running through my head when I typed that up, and wasn't as clear about what I meant as I could have been. I wanted to clarify more on what I meant by easing grinding-
The series EV lets you, effectively, lets you 'fake' the effect of having higher gear, and at rates that blow the diminishing returns most stats have out of the water. It's more useful for high waves than low waves, really (For any value of high or low waves, the higher you can get, the more beneficial multiplying stats will ultimately be.) There are other ways of boosting your stats- One being grinding the 'lower' (lower here meaning any waves you can clear, as opposed to the higher ones you cannot) waves for better gear, or mana to buy better gear. Another is guardians, which can also boost up your stats situationally in similar ways to series EV (and which don't stack with buff beams). Also, this train of thought is intended as a counter to any 'well, you couldn't have gotten those stats without an EV'. People have been getting 'those stats' since before EV came out. Does that clear things up some?


Relevant to your other statements:
I very much like the EV. I have no problem with it being necessary for progression, nor do I have a problem with paying Trendy for classes like the EV and the Summoner or DLCs like the Shards-pack. I currently totally approve of the way they're releasing their content and would probably had paid more for DD had I known it would be so fun. I have zero problem with paying Trendy for new content, and I have zero problem with the content they've released. That being said, I still say it's impossible to clear end-game Survival w/o an EV. :D


My later points were more me trying to take a step back, and analyze why the opposing factions are at odds in these debates. Perhaps still skewed by my perspective, but I'm just trying to find where the higher-order reasoning behind the argumentative positions lies. As to the conclusion to that statement, as well as-


Personally, I don't even care about the stats, I just want to see it done, because I don't believe it's possible. There's no other way of proving it isand the absense of evidence is the evidence of absense, so, so far, the naysayers have the evidence.

And do you really expect the people saying it's impossible to go out and prove that it's possible, when they think it's impossible? O.o The people saying it's impossible have no reason to try it, not the other way around.


A point a lot of people have made, that I haven't seen a great response to, is that people were clearing endgame survival before series EV came out. Yes, there have been changes to endgame survival since then, but what were they... Aquanos and Sharken. Sharken really only require that the gas traps, which you already had to use to deal with djinn before the series EV came out, be placed slightly differently. That's why I'm opposed to the claim that series EV is required to clear endgame survival. People were clearing maps without EV, they just needed higher stats, and possibly multiple players with guardians. Series EV lowers the stat requirements to beat a stage, and now people with the stats to do it with an EV who would simply have needed to grind better gear and get a good guardian before think they wouldn't be able to do it without- Which is true, at their stats/without guardians. Do you get where I'm coming from here?

As to the burden-of-proof argument that keeps rearing it's head... No, we don't expect you to prove it's impossible, because yes, as you have said, that's an unverifiable claim. That is exactly why we have a problem with the degree of claim you're making. What you're doing is, in a metaphorical rhetorical kind of way, the equivalent of someone going and saying to the government 'I think Russia doesn't really exist, it's all a conspiracy you folks use to [insert conspiracy rant here]. Buy me a ticket there to prove me wrong.'
You're coming with a fairly outlandish claim (again, impossible is a pretty strong word), that you by your own admission can't verify, and demanding others prove you wrong. But no-one is obligated to prove you wrong in the first place, especially when you're bringing such a massive claim that you don't have an proof for. In any intellectually rigorous debate, it's necessary, if one is to engage a productive response, to come with both a claim and proof, which matches the claim. It's un-productive to bring a point to a debate that by your own admission can't be proven, only disproven by people who disagree, and then demanding that they use their time/resources to prove you wrong.

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the ev and "only the newest maps will drop the best loot" is just an example of a of trendy changing the game to require you to buy dlcs
dlc should always be optional and never required
you should not have to buy more dlc to complete the base game and the crystal pack on survival nm /nm hc mm to the end
you should be able to do it with the 4 base heroes but this I ,the op,and some others feel is not the case
the ev it self is unimportant as trendy could change the game again to require another dlc hero / map purchase and that is the problem
I have a real problem with the "pay to win " model and that is what it feels like this game has become

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A point a lot of people have made, that I haven't seen a great response to, is that people were clearing endgame survival before series EV came out. Yes, there have been changes to endgame survival since then, but what were they... Aquanos and Sharken. Sharken really only require that the gas traps, which you already had to use to deal with djinn before the series EV came out, be placed slightly differently. That's why I'm opposed to the claim that series EV is required to clear endgame survival. People were clearing maps without EV, they just needed higher stats, and possibly multiple players with guardians. Series EV lowers the stat requirements to beat a stage, and now people with the stats to do it with an EV who would simply have needed to grind better gear and get a good guardian before think they wouldn't be able to do it without- Which is true, at their stats/without guardians. Do you get where I'm coming from here?

As to the burden-of-proof argument that keeps rearing it's head... No, we don't expect you to prove it's impossible, because yes, as you have said, that's an unverifiable claim. That is exactly why we have a problem with the degree of claim you're making. What you're doing is, in a metaphorical rhetorical kind of way, the equivalent of someone going and saying to the government 'I think Russia doesn't really exist, it's all a conspiracy you folks use to [insert conspiracy rant here]. Buy me a ticket there to prove me wrong.'
You're coming with a fairly outlandish claim (again, impossible is a pretty strong word), that you by your own admission can't verify, and demanding others prove you wrong. But no-one is obligated to prove you wrong in the first place, especially when you're bringing such a massive claim that you don't have an proof for. In any intellectually rigorous debate, it's necessary, if one is to engage a productive response, to come with both a claim and proof, which matches the claim. It's un-productive to bring a point to a debate that by your own admission can't be proven, only disproven by people who disagree, and then demanding that they use their time/resources to prove you wrong.
so the "bug fix" nerfing of the squire and guardians just at the time trendy releases a hero that boost stats and takes the place of guardians is just a coincidence
let me ask you some thing if a man bought life insurance on his wife just before she has and accident and dies would you think he was innocent

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I have a real problem with the "pay to win " model and that is what it feels like this game has become


"Pay-to-win" Is an expression from free-to-play competitive games (mostly PvP) in which a Pay-to-Play player has a far greater chance of winning than a "Free-to-Play" player.

Dungeon defenders is not a free-to-play game and never has been, therefore the "pay-to-win" expression does not apply.

The thing about adding new characters into the game is that they will always fall into one of two categories:

1) Characters which add something to the game - These will, by definition, bring something new to the table. As a tower defence game of this structure puts emphasis on using a variety of characters this will inevitably reduce the difficulty slightly if said character could be used well in conjunction with others. If they couldn't they would fall into the next category:

2) Characters which add nothing to the game
- Imagine trendy released a new turret class like the mage or apprentice. Would it gain lots sales? no. Why not? Because it adds nothing to the game, why would people buy it on mass? Which begs the question, why would it be developed in the first place?

For good reasons every character added has fallen into category one, and thus is bound to make the game at least slightly easier. Though as I have said before, the original hero's are OP compared to the EV.

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"Pay-to-win" Is an expression from free-to-play competitive games (mostly PvP) in which a Pay-to-Play player has a far greater chance of winning than a "Free-to-Play" player.

Dungeon defenders is not a free-to-play game and never has been, therefore the "pay-to-win" expression does not apply.

The thing about adding new characters into the game is that they will always fall into one of two categories:

1) Characters which add something to the game - These will, by definition, bring something new to the table. As a tower defence game of this structure puts emphasis on using a variety of characters this will inevitably reduce the difficulty slightly if said character could be used well in conjunction with others. If they couldn't they would fall into the next category:

2) Characters which add nothing to the game
- Imagine trendy released a new turret class like the mage or apprentice. Would it gain lots sales? no. Why not? Because it adds nothing to the game, why would people buy it on mass? Which begs the question, why would it be developed in the first place?

For good reasons every character added has fallen into category one, and thus is bound to make the game at least slightly easier. Though as I have said before, the original hero's are OP compared to the EV.


Pay-To-Get-Better-Items

Are you happy?

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so the "bug fix" nerfing of the squire and guardians just at the time trendy releases a hero that boost stats and takes the place of guardians is just a coincidence
let me ask you some thing if a man bought life insurance on his wife just before she has and accident and dies would you think he was innocent

Uh, yeah, actually, I'm perfectly willing to believe the former case could be a coincidence. As someone who's spent any length of time at all programming will tell you, sometimes your code takes on a life of it's own and does things you don't intend. Sometimes, it's hard to tell why. Granted, maybe an announcement earlier than when they fixed it that squire was bugged and doing more damage than intended would have been good, but you know what? Squire is still the bread and butter of almost every major build, so clearly, they're far from crippled.

And granted, I didn't have any guardians before the patch in question, but I can say they're still potentially stronger than a series EV buff, so again, it's not like they've been made irrelevant. There's just a solution that is more solo friendly/requires less constriction on your playstyle to implement, and therefore is more popular.

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pay to win nah must be another "bug" or "coincidence"
http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?64582-The-pet-rock&


I appreciate sarcasm, but only when it makes sense.

I do not appreciate your posts. Not at all.

Much like with new characters, new items need some kind of perk to justify adding them to the game. These pets have a drawback (set your speed to zero, as has been reported). We will see these on some heroes, for sure, but they're not going the be-all end to all other things. Neither is the series EV. It's also not going to make any of the other content harder.

[quote]the ev and "only the newest maps will drop the best loot" is just an example of a of trendy changing the game to require you to buy dlcs
dlc should always be optional and never required
you should not have to buy more dlc to complete the base game and the crystal pack on survival nm /nm hc mm to the end
you should be able to do it with the 4 base heroes but this I ,the op,and some others feel is not the case
the ev it self is unimportant as trendy could change the game again to require another dlc hero / map purchase and that is the problem
I have a real problem with the "pay to win " model and that is what it feels like this game has become [/quote]

You do not need to pay to win. You pay to get a shiny new hero who will make things easier by giving you more options. This has been stated more than I'm willing to count. New loot has only been necessary for nightmare mode survivals, which are included on with the shards series. You can't really construct a pay-to-win argument by complaining only shards maps drop the loot you need to beat the game. Basically the game is constructed so that playing a specific map will provide you with the loot to beat that map. This may not always be the case, but I'm think it generally holds up.

DLC is not required. You can buy the base game and play that. You can even buy any piece of dlc and use any of its features without needing any other dlc (exception are costumes). Keep in mind though that high end survival maps are the hardest thing you can do in this game. With or without EV (or any supportive dlc) it's going to be very hard to beat. And that's a good thing.

Basically I'm calling the entirety of that last quote bs. The only part that is debatable is the game being beatable without EV. I still hold it's possible, along with a majority of the people here.

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so the "bug fix" nerfing of the squire and guardians just at the time trendy releases a hero that boost stats and takes the place of guardians is just a coincidence
let me ask you some thing if a man bought life insurance on his wife just before she has and accident and dies would you think he was innocent


You sound like one of those crazy conspiracy theory guys. Would love to hear your thoughts on 911 and the moon landing:squire:

I think Trendy balance the game to give the majority of players a good experience. I'm not sure how you could balance the game so that people can progress the same with or without an EV.

People complain about companies not producing fresh content for their games. Others like you complain when they do. What would you do if you were CEO of Trendy, besides investigating the alien base on the dark side of the moon.

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