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no more fear of spiders or djinn or sharken... although they were never there for me it became even more so. .


......

We're not all masters like you. If the game is already too easy for you that the new mobs never cause any problems for you then maybe it's time to move onto another game.

Progression has improved somewhat in this game, but it still needs improvements. This is one avenue that fixes it, imo.

If it makes it too easy for you then don't use it. But for those of us who don't have endgame gear yet, this is going to open new strategies for us that help us progress. Here's the thing, farming the maps that we can do over and over again until we luck across better gear that lets us do the other maps isn't progression; it's boring.

Trendy, you have done a wonderful job with the summoner. Please, leave him alone. He is great.

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Okay, so I wanted to take some time to play around with summoner, see what it adds to my build, and give it a real try before I came to comment, so I could really give my thoughts. So far, I've loved it, though I think the biggest issue I've had is that in overlord mode, the screen scrolls too slowly. Doing runs in glitterhelm, I'd start scrolling to another spot to plop down an ogre to supplement some harpoons, started scrolling literally at the start of the round, and the round ended before my camera made it up there. I'm not talking the first round or anything either. If the suggestion others have put forward about using the map to snap to areas was viable, that would be a good solution. Or even just a button to hold down to scroll faster, at least.

Other than that, more than just the minions, even, I'm loving the ability to just watch everything from on high, toss out repairs as needed at range. In general digging the support functionality.

Oh, also, two other things- The first is possibly a bit me-specific, as dungeon defenders doesn't like my middle mouse button for some reason, I have to remap the menu wheel. Been keeping it on z, but it makes exiting out of the minion selection a bit awkward. Also, only being able to command minions to move to a location inside the normal build/repair/upgrade cast range feels kind of clunky. In general, I feel the non-overlord minion controls could use some work, especially given the fact that at the moment, some people can't use overlord mode.

This is all just me being constructive criticism guy, though. I'm certainly far from dissatisfied with summoner, been having a blast overall.

Also, just wanted to add in- Summoner does a lot to alleviate the boredom of running survival when everything's built, all dus are used, and everything's upgraded. Summoner at this stage of a fight can still do things, and it really feels like that's the point in a match when summoner is meant to thrive. Even when you've filled your mu and max upgraded everything, you can at least move things around to either change things up, of shift the focus as needed, and just generally keep active.

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Agreed.

It's not easy to cater to everybody, but when a poll is this one sided in a positive way then you know you have done your job right when the majority are telling you that the Summoner is quite balanced.

I love it when people say that they could counter sharkens, djinn and spiders as if it's no challenge. Join the club bro a good percentage of us can do the same, so it really makes no difference if the Summoner can help you achieve this goal easier. Summoner makes the game more fun with a fresh new approach to the gameplay and not to mention some interesting ideas behind him. Variety is what was needed and thanks to the Summoner we can have much more varied builds then a gas trap in each choke area.

I hope now others can progress further with the Summoner's help, so one day they too can enjoy the chance at end game loot just like the rest of us. Then they too will understand the feeling of aquiring an item which makes all the grinding worth it. I can tell you it's a good feeling indeed.

Remember though just because you have the ability to aquire end game loot, doesn't guarantee it's going to be amazing end game loot. Luck is still involved in that area and that's where the real fun begins.

:skeleton:

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Nice Posts @ VonCrown and KnowsNoLimits.

The Mana points you need to upgrade your army is very high, also if you want to repair your ogre...woah, but hay, this is nice balanced, i like it.
My summoner is now on 71 and i have found only two issues so far.
The first: The Minions have a problem with stairs. Sometimes the enemy can stand near your Orc or Archer and attack you, but your minion will not defend.
The second issue is at the Alchemical Laboratory, you can give the command to attack the Tesla things there, but your minions wont attack them.

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One wish that I have:
Allow summoner to collect mana when in Phase Shift/Phase Shift Overlord mode. I hate switching out of it, having to move around, when the summoner is all about acting from above. That way, you could position yourself in a spot where Mana will drop, and had a stable source of Mana to repair and upgrade.

This obviously would be a huge buff, but I had another idea for multiplayer:
As soon as another player is in the game, make the Summoner unable to collect mana in Overlord and Phase Shift mode (maybe still allow him to collect mana in Phase Shift mode, because he has to leave Overlord and run around for that), but allow him to pick up mana crystals that other players dropped (and maybe make those crystals look a bit different, different color, or maybe another shape or have a stripe of metal around them to signal this mana has been collected and dropped by a player)! This would allow for teamplay, with DPS classes fighting amoung the minions, and dropping the mana back into the Summoner/s from time to time, which in turn deal with repairing and upgrading.

Just an idea.

Oh, and please increase the collision size of the minions (not sure about most, but I noticed that I can place 4 archers next to each other at the stairs right at the crystal on Deeper Well, and somehow a goblin still got through).

Another issue, on Deeper Well, if you put minions in Hold Aggressive (or I guess any Aggressive) mode too close to the crystal, they will attack the Dummy behind the crystal in build phase, messing up the placement.

Other than that, I looooooooooooooveee the Summoner :D

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So far, I've loved it, though I think the biggest issue I've had is that in overlord mode, the screen scrolls too slowly. Doing runs in glitterhelm, I'd start scrolling to another spot to plop down an ogre to supplement some harpoons, started scrolling literally at the start of the round, and the round ended before my camera made it up there. I'm not talking the first round or anything either. If the suggestion others have put forward about using the map to snap to areas was viable, that would be a good solution. Or even just a button to hold down to scroll faster, at least.


Agreed. Faster Scrolling and being able to use the map to move around instantly in Overlord mode would be helpful.

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I think that for all the concern people have over the summoner being too strong, please remember that having 1 one your team DOES make your team stronger. Having 2 does not. The summoner without MU would be relatively pointless, as his personal character has reduced effectiveness, and his low hp pool doesn't allow him to get in real close for his pets to take advantage of multiple projectiles, etc. That means he needs something to contribute to the team, and the MU pool allows him to do just that. He doesn't do more damage than a huntress, or something, he just has the ability to spread his damage out into smaller "remotes".

I think that's fine. Individually, the minions are weaker than towers, and should supplement them. Just think of them as extensions of the summoner, rather than "towers". And again, multiple summoners isn't going to make things even easier, so we're not going to see summoner domination.

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One wish that I have:
Allow summoner to collect mana when in Phase Shift/Phase Shift Overlord mode. I hate switching out of it, having to move around, when the summoner is all about acting from above. That way, you could position yourself in a spot where Mana will drop, and had a stable source of Mana to repair and upgrade.

i can hear the whiners now.. so no, i vote DO NOT DO THIS. please, they would whine forever. it would be awesome, but the forums would probably be filled with even more qq's about how 'unbalanced' or 'OP' the summoner is in their minds.

guys, summoner is pretty balanced IMHO, and should be slightly op because of the summoning times required.. so no... please do not let us gather mana in that mode, its balanced the way it is.

but some faster scrolling options in general options seems to be something desired by the major consensus.
please listen to the majority on this one trendy :)

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I think that for all the concern people have over the summoner being too strong, please remember that having 1 one your team DOES make your team stronger. Having 2 does not. The summoner without MU would be relatively pointless, as his personal character has reduced effectiveness, and his low hp pool doesn't allow him to get in real close for his pets to take advantage of multiple projectiles, etc. That means he needs something to contribute to the team, and the MU pool allows him to do just that. He doesn't do more damage than a huntress, or something, he just has the ability to spread his damage out into smaller "remotes".

I think that's fine. Individually, the minions are weaker than towers, and should supplement them. Just think of them as extensions of the summoner, rather than "towers". And again, multiple summoners isn't going to make things even easier, so we're not going to see summoner domination.

THIS.

without monster units, the summoner is just another option, it looses its place if you make mu du instead.
please keep it that way, not to mention most of us already believe that the class is balanced.

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in my humble opinion, having played to level 73 last night (i got the dlc late, and i also power leveled about 20 of you guys as well, if you got a powerlevel session with trilith - YOUR WELCOME :) ), and at the lowend it seemed slightly op, once i got him to 74, put some mythical on him i realized something: summoners are squishy beyond belief, and summon times, as well as repair times, are so thoroughly balanced that i think they are perfect they way they are. to the people complaining oh it kills spiders.. ALL YOU HAD TO DO IS USE A SLIGHT BIT OF MAKING YOUR TURRETS SLIGHTLY FACE EACH OTHER IN THE FIRST PLACE TO PREVENT THAT. i find them a valuable asset, which is why the whiners are like ooh its op cuz it makes playing fun again.

i'll say it like this. i am back enjoying dungeon defenders with a smile on my face, its FUN to play a summoner, its great fun, and i can drop my turrets and know that even tho they are 33% weaker, with the addition of a few units beside them, i can now equalize the threat on the high 20 waves on survival hardcore (insane or nightmare, take your pick, but ask the pros and they'll probably tell you that insane hardcore level 25 mixed mode is almost as hard as nmhc, because you dont get the bonuses you have on nmhc. nmhc is actually tougher early on rather than later, after you have a good plan in your head about dealing with issues such as sharken, etc), allowing me to stick an ogre in that sharkens way, or archers to neutralize the threat of spiders without sacrificing AOE to do it. I LIKE THAT. I FIND IT FUN. does anyone agree with me on this?

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by the way i voted that i liked the mu and to keep them. i dont think that mu's are the problem. i in fact think it's a brilliant solution to another problem. still the summoner needs some balancing. i'm not saying that the solution is to remove mu's or change the mu, ok on some maps they can clog up on narrow paths and make it hard to move around and do things, that is because the map was designed for 4 players and not for 4 players + lots of minions going on paths that mobs don't normally take and that players use to move around. maybe the thing to do is make them weaker based on the map and the difficulty level or slightly reduce the number of mus or make the paths wider and the mobs harder or some new tweakable difficulty settings or maybe the less difficult the less minions. again it's hard to say what to do, but it's easy to see that the summoner is a powerful ally which may tilt the balance too much in ones favor. maybe when shards 4 dlc comes out and nm mode gets harder with new mob i will feel differently.

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I really like the Summoner and think he's the best class you guys have made yet in my opinion, in terms of interesting concept and good implementation of him ingame. I think he's balanced aside from too slow of a casting rate in combat.

I understand it's an intentional balance thing, but in combat with a casting rate of 600 it should not take me like 50 seconds to summon one single minion. A boost of at least 10% should be fine. I also have an issue with Hold Defensive not working as it should (would prefer it so hold defensive minions would not move whatsoever and only attack when something is in range, I don't like my archers constantly wiggling around and out of buff beams) but all in all summoner is a really interesting class and he helps tremendously.

The MU system is perfectly fine in my opinion and I'm glad you guys did it as we were starting to get choked in DU what with the addition of all the new mobs for NM mode. It also makes summoners much more welcome in a party than they would've been if they had to use DU as well. Whatever you do, don't touch this MU system, it's balanced and works good. Play with minion unit costs all you want, just don't scrap this system. The day a summoner nerf comes to replace MU with DU like everyone else is the day many summoners disband entirely.

I didn't powerlevel my summoner so I can't comment how good/bad he is in NM yet, but the way I see it is I've basically doubled my available firepower so I'm sure it's fine. That's the only thing that remains to be seen for me. I love the new possibilities and all the interesting builds one can make with summoners as well, his concept and execution in general seems perfectly fine to me. Personally I will be doing a pure minion/djinnlet mana gathering summoner type of build.

I just have one question, I posted this in another thread but it's probably gonna get buried...

I'm confused about one thing though, why is there an Attack Rate stat AND an Attack Speed Boost stat on all minions when you inspect them? What's the difference? Surely they're both governed by the same stat (attack speed) no? Why have two listings for the same thing that's governed by the same thing?

For those who don't know what I mean.

Does it have to do with the movement speed stat? I was under the impression movement speed only meant how fast they walk/run around.

On a final note, I want to report a bug. A friendly mage minion healing spell will resurrect nearby enemy mage's fallen skeletons. It would be interesting if this was kept in and instead charmed those raised skeletons to the minion's service. It would offer in an interesting twist to putting mages in the front lines, but honestly, a fix is fine too. Just tossing an idea out there.

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In my opinion the MUs are a very good choice.
The Minions are strong, but i think a good towerbuilder squire is stronger.
Summoner cant attack and cant take damage, so this is moved to his minions, perfect.
If they would use DUs...he wont worth the money.


Best comment on the thread IMO.
The MU system is great and takes the place of a weapon. I know I could summon between rounds and still combat with a weapon character, but then my control over minions is severely limited. Thus IMO, keep the MU and there is no need to reduce DU. If DU were reduced I don't think the summoner would be worth playing, or at least I would choose not to play with the summoner.

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in my humble opinion, having played to level 73 last night (i got the dlc late, and i also power leveled about 20 of you guys as well, if you got a powerlevel session with trilith - YOUR WELCOME :) ), and at the lowend it seemed slightly op, once i got him to 74, put some mythical on him i realized something: summoners are squishy beyond belief, and summon times, as well as repair times, are so thoroughly balanced that i think they are perfect they way they are. to the people complaining oh it kills spiders.. ALL YOU HAD TO DO IS USE A SLIGHT BIT OF MAKING YOUR TURRETS SLIGHTLY FACE EACH OTHER IN THE FIRST PLACE TO PREVENT THAT. i find them a valuable asset, which is why the whiners are like ooh its op cuz it makes playing fun again.

i'll say it like this. i am back enjoying dungeon defenders with a smile on my face, its FUN to play a summoner, its great fun, and i can drop my turrets and know that even tho they are 33% weaker, with the addition of a few units beside them, i can now equalize the threat on the high 20 waves on survival hardcore (insane or nightmare, take your pick, but ask the pros and they'll probably tell you that insane hardcore level 25 mixed mode is almost as hard as nmhc, because you dont get the bonuses you have on nmhc. nmhc is actually tougher early on rather than later, after you have a good plan in your head about dealing with issues such as sharken, etc), allowing me to stick an ogre in that sharkens way, or archers to neutralize the threat of spiders without sacrificing AOE to do it. I LIKE THAT. I FIND IT FUN. does anyone agree with me on this?


Yes, I agree! Well said. Played a round on Aqunos and had the best fun on this game for a long time. And fun is what any game should be about.

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Sure, the Summoner can look OP when you're in a Nightmare run and a level 83 that stripped armor from 3 characters to be uber badass joins up (Thanks Xon!), but I can definately see the weaknesses of a Summoner as well (I can't picture him being too DPS/Tanky, or and I agree with it's abysmal cast time), however we gotta remember something else: With the Minion Units, we get more options for later classes that may take advantage of this new resource. Any unit afterwards that can use minions of some form can take the cues of the Summoner, even if they don't get the RTS options the Summoner gets.

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It's the worst thing I've ever seen!


Neh, just kidding, love it <3

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I just want to restate my opinion in case anybody took home the wrong impression from my first post.

The issue with the Summoner isn't that he's unbalanced (he is, but Hitmonchan said they wanted him to make the game easier...), but that there's no core equivalent. Everybody's just paid 4-5 bucks (region dependant) to make the game strictly easier. By a long shot, considering he's supposed to be able to solo anyways.

And if future content, especially premium content, is balanced with the Summoner in mind, he essentially becomes a compulsory purchase - and an extremely grudging one if somebody buys a map balanced with him in mind before they realise they'll pretty much need him to beat it.

For every power in the game, there needs to be a core alternative - it's simply bad design to add a new resource system and only make it available for people willing to pay for it, especially when it's such a game changer as the summoner will be.

All that's needed to fix it - either a new MU character that's included as part of the core game, or ditch MU. I like MU, as a design idea... though it makes the game a little too easy, imo, Ican avoid using it to break the game. But I don't want to see the game have a point at which you have to purchase a new class to progress. Having to buy new maps to play new maps is fine, but if we have to buy a class to beat new maps, no.

And if no new content is balanced around Summoner, he really is "Pay for Easy Mode"

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Sure, the Summoner can look OP when you're in a Nightmare run and a level 83 that stripped armor from 3 characters to be uber badass joins up (Thanks Xon!), but I can definately see the weaknesses of a Summoner as well (I can't picture him being too DPS/Tanky, or and I agree with it's abysmal cast time), however we gotta remember something else: With the Minion Units, we get more options for later classes that may take advantage of this new resource. Any unit afterwards that can use minions of some form can take the cues of the Summoner, even if they don't get the RTS options the Summoner gets.


Yeah, the fact that we could have other characters that draw from the same pool excites me. For the most part, the Summoner's minions are very offense oriented, so it'd be interesting to see a different type of hero that can summon more support oriented minions.

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In advance: Sorry for long post! [sic]

Strongly seconded: OL Mode movement features: snap to and faster scrolling functionality. (E.g., as per other RTSs, games like AI War, et cetera.)

I'd like to point out to the users claiming "majority vote is solid proof of balance" and such variations that, while the poll is certainly helpful, the 86% saying they think it's balanced doesn't necessarily make it so. The actual percentage of players far enough along to witness the balance issues in end game play is very possibly only a small minority of the user base. Whether or not this is countered by the spread of the users who take the time to sign up for the forum is another issue. The feedback indicating perceived balance issues, on the other hand, can help identify real issues.*

*Example: if fighting games used majority opinion to nerf everyone, then some of the "hard to read but still incredibly unsafe" characters would be nerfed to the ground, while "easier to read but nearly invincible if played right" characters would remain OP because only the veterans would realize it.

OTOH, since one has to balance keeping both crowds pleased, it helps to know what the majority is thinking, I'm sure.

Anyway... Not sure what I think would help with the MU/DU debate. The whole "same thing with EV buff beams" thing is slightly different due to the MU/DU issue. I don't know how feasible it is, but if it were possible to scale enemy difficulty based on presence of a Summoner or their minions at round start, if balanced well it would retain the edge of the extra units (presence, mobility), without making the enemies a complete joke. Anecdotal, but I'm -fairly- sure there was already some "toughness" scaling going on pre-DLC when players join, since the difficulty ramp doesn't seem like it's just an increase in numbers, given that defenses that are mostly self-sufficient solo feel like they can fall apart much easier than would be expected with just an increase in mob count. That could be me and Djinn/Sharken fail, though, since my approach is still "kill it fasteR!!1Eleven"/"More dakka!" when it comes to dealing with them.

Two Summoners isn't necessarily a useless thing, either. DPS capability vs. squishiness aside, for larger maps or maps with multiple choke points, it would be far easier for two people to manage the minions (+ tower repairs and upgrades XD) than one person handling both sides. For higher tier players who can AFK the newer DLC maps in NM SMM HC, afk-ing some mage blobs is probably more than sufficient. But for less experienced players (RTS or tower defense), taking the edge off like that probably isn't a bad thing*ahem* especially considering the sluggish scrolling.

Aside: 50% boost for TBB is slightly off. If your stats are high enough (even ~600), you can almost get 2.0x for all four stats. That's around 3-4x the damage potential, ignoring effective range. If you sacrifice one fireball for a TBB where you would have had three, you still pretty much have six fireballs sitting there**. A simplified example, which ignores overkill, max targets, and map coverage, but nonetheless. There's also the issue of diminishing returns for stats. My towers only fire at 0.XX s, and they'll keep firing at that rate for quite a while in terms of point allocation. Buff beam boosts it regardless of where I am on the curve. /getting off topic though

**Seeing a DST firing at the rate of a -slightly- lower statted and unbuffed FB is also fairly hilarious, if fairly useless against blobs. Also hilarious is playing outside your stat zone and watching it all fall apart when a Djinn de-summons an aura that overlaps the TBBs before you realize nothing is shooting it. XD

I *was* going to say the Summoner's early game feels weak, given that I can solo DW Hard once and then jump right into Insane with almost any other class, while I had to jump down to Medium to get into Hard. But, replaying DW Hard from LVL0 today, I think maybe it's just the genre blending giving me a hard time. Not sure what others' experiences have been.

Also not sure, but it feels like the archers miss a fair bit on targets moving across their FOV. I shouldn't be surprised, given how easy it is to dodge them normally, but I expected them to lead more when they were ported over for the Summoner (cf. harpoon turrets). Admittedly, it was kinda funny watching a goblin walk past them on its way to the Crystal. "A-Team FIRING!" XD

Sorry for long post! [sic] ~Dept. of Redundancy Dept.

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Overall the summoner is the perfect addition to players like me who are used to paying games in a hardcore style but no longer have the time to commit to it.

I recently just cleared all of the original campaigns on insane/hardcore for the first time and I just leveled my first character to 74. I struggle a lot on the later maps like mistymire, morrago, and the other dlc. Don't even ask me if I've completed a hard survival yet because I can't. My EV is my main, and currently I just managed to reach some decent stats in the 200-400s. This is part of my issue, however I really love its style of play.

My skills are much higher than the average player, and my set ups are perfected by playing the map many times. With all of that said, for me to break into nightmare at all the summoner will be crucial. I do not have time to farm for mana, I do not have time to farm to level multiple characters (I plan on having 4 main characters and my alts are all around 60+ including my summoner.)

I think the MU is perfect for the audience it is intended for, the casual gamers. Thank you very much for putting this in here. There is a reason to pay for this content - it is not crucial to buy to be able to play the main content of the game. This is not a "pay to make game easier" option either, it is a "pay to make the game possible for casual gamers" option.

Nightmare mode is not a part of the original content. The summoner is not crucial for any part of the game, in fact if you level a squire or apprentice in the normal game going from easy > medium > hard > insane it should be no effort at all for you to beat everything.

So far, this character is my favorite! My alts will be sitting on the sidelines for a bit ^.^

**Edited for grammar**
Finally I wanted to add, I can't touch on all of the points going on about the summoner currently. I am not experienced enough to talk about the ramifications of end game nightmare. I feel like I fit into the intended demographic perfectly though, I just can't break into late game content nor can I farm a decent amount of mana to go through shops and buy gear. I actually don't like using shops and prefer to get gear on my own. With the slight bonus of the summoner I know for a fact what used to hold me back, won't be anymore.

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I'm so crazy behind on this game... I think me and a certain DMFlex may get on for a bit tomorrow :) Of course we will have NO DLC to enjoy :P

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I definitely am disappointed about this class. I tested it with overpowered armor in the Open servers to watch
it at its almost maximum power.
First of all, I actually enjoyed attacking monsters directly. If a Summoner can make minions appear just like
that, I'm sure some special spells wouldn't be very hard.
Also, the minions are the exact same monsters we already have, but with a different texture/material.I think thats really lame, especially since they put quite some effort in the actual character itself. It looks great! The fact that it hovers because of the leg problem actually gives it more of a magic feel.
But all in all, I'm sure this class will get me bored quickly. I'm very much of a soloist, and waiting for your
minions to finish each wave while healing them a bit where needed, is just not a fun thing to do.

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New class is loads of fun TE. Very refreshing to play around with something new. Keep up the good work!

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I love the way the Summoner plays out, I do wish the camera moved a bit faster in Overlord mode, though.

Only a little bit, or make it that if you hold Shift while moving around it makes it scroll faster.

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