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Tamika

The game should be fun, not annoying

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The last few patches changed somethings, that are more annoying and frustrating then fun for Players. As i started this game, it was fun to play. But with the last changes (and maybe upcoming), the game is going to be in a more and more frustrating direction, that let players not longer play this game like me.

The biggest Problem seems to me, that die difficulty adjustment is failed. There are 5 difficulties in the game and the real difficulty is something like easy=10%, middle=15%, hard=20%, insane=25%, nightmare=150%. Same with Itemdrops. If i play W25 on SV on Insane, the Items will have not more then ~40-50 on a single stat. In Nightmare they go up to more then 200 points on more stats. That means, it is nearly impossible for a new Player, to get Equipment, to do Nightmare on deeper well.

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me and my friend have been thinking the same thing. when NM started we did not have to deal with anything extra, but then spiders, djinn and now sharken. it would be brutal for a new person to try and start with out some help.

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I agree with you here, at the moment there is almost no chance of transitioning from insane to NM by yourself, you either need help from other geared players or need to buy gear at stores.

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me and my friend have been thinking the same thing. when NM started we did not have to deal with anything extra, but then spiders, djinn and now sharken. it would be brutal for a new person to try and start with out some help.


Not entirely true. If you play through the new content and challenges on insane the rewards and loot are respectable, and plenty to help break into nightmare mode. The problem is that in the beginning, this was not the case at all, which led to people developing strategies (such as farming ES) and spreading those around. As trendy has improved the "bridge" to nightmare few people seem to have re-evaluated the strategies used to break into NM mode, and just continued to say the same thing over and over again.

I strongly suggest new players play through the newer content on insane. This includes challenges as well as Aquanos survival. The seahorse pet from Aquanos can be pretty sick from insane, and provide a massive stat jump. Once you get going, OMF is a good place to get lower-mid range NM myths and its not that difficult.

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Also, you don't say which survival insane you're doing. Deeper wells? Sure. Did you try some of the 3/4 crystal maps? Like Summit, Glitter or Misty?

And! If they have 40-50 on a stat, great. But you also need to upgrade them. That's the other thing about nightmare. You must upgrade equipment to seriously have a chance.

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The annoyances dont stop once you get into the nightmare. To me the time spent vs the reward is starting to annoy me. Last night I spent 5-6 hours farming NMHC Uber Death From Above to try and get some better weapons. Most the time I get complete crap that is vendored right away. It would be nice if we were actually given an award that is useful for all the time we spend working towards something.

The drops on survival are understanably random but why am I on wave 25 NMHC MM and still getting a garbage level 30 item from a chest. Something needs to be fixed, the RNG for this game is too extreme.

Regarding the NM difficulty, some of these maps should not be decided by the fact your tower was 1 or 2 pixels off from the optimum position. I understand the min/max off endgame progression, but the margin for error is extremely small. Buff beams make it near impossible to try and adjust your build during a wave, because if you do all your defenses just lost their beam and its game over.

This comes back to the risk vs reward for buff beams, but whats my reward? Some crap item with negative resistances and all neg stats.

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If you play through the new content and challenges on insane the rewards and loot are respectable, and plenty to help break into nightmare mode.

This ^


the RNG for this game is too extreme.

True too, but this is how this game is.
As for farming the same map over and over again to earn a correct weapon, are you sure this precise weapon is the only key to break into harder content? Can't you already go there and find a better one?

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I think to many people take the loot progression guide to heart. A good builder has 1 of every builder not some super powered squire or app. 90% of people who say they are stuck in gear progression are people who only have a single powerful builder, the other 10% are baddies. Every person i've seen whos been able to get to wave 20 + on new maps have at least the 3 decent (1k) builders.

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True too, but this is how this game is.
As for farming the same map over and over again to earn a correct weapon, are you sure this precise weapon is the only key to break into harder content? Can't you already go there and find a better one?


I have been trying to get a decent rug beater for awhile. Most of them have been really bad. With the aqua halbard being nerfed to elemental dmg and the Nosferatu with such a rare drop, this is the best weapon im aware of for a monk, that is guaranteed to drop.


Dont worry, we will have rational gear progression, accessibility and fun next week.


Yeah, as much as I love DunDef the loot and progression is too annoying. Diablo 3 will be my new time and money sink.

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I have been trying to get a decent rug beater for awhile. Most of them have been really bad. With the aqua halbard being nerfed to elemental dmg and the Nosferatu with such a rare drop, this is the best weapon im aware of for a monk, that is guaranteed to drop.

Assuming you want a rugbeater for melee? You're probably spending, what, 45 mins farming Uberdeath? In 2 runs, you could have run misty survival and probably found 3 or 4 comparable or better weapons, as well as making around 300m mana. Which would let you just go and buy a rugbeater if you want it so badly.
220+ myths start dropping after wave 15, and the chance of a loldrop is high (+400 stats and high base damage). I'm using a 240 spider leg I found on wave 17 which does 5m DPS in the tav, boosted. According to my quick maths, I'd need a 320 rug beater to out-dps this, and even then, it's unlikely the stats would be so ridiculous.
So, if you can beat uber, you should be fine for misty to wave 20.

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Actually for ranged dps. Waiting for a Nosferatu to drop on some late wave MM would take far longer then farming UDFA.

The only point Im trying to make is that the RNG of usuable item models is bad and the chance that one of those is worthy of an upgrade is just as terrible.

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The last few patches changed somethings, that are more annoying and frustrating then fun for Players. As i started this game, it was fun to play. But with the last changes (and maybe upcoming), the game is going to be in a more and more frustrating direction, that let players not longer play this game like me.

The biggest Problem seems to me, that die difficulty adjustment is failed. There are 5 difficulties in the game and the real difficulty is something like easy=10%, middle=15%, hard=20%, insane=25%, nightmare=150%. Same with Itemdrops. If i play W25 on SV on Insane, the Items will have not more then ~40-50 on a single stat. In Nightmare they go up to more then 200 points on more stats. That means, it is nearly impossible for a new Player, to get Equipment, to do Nightmare on deeper well.


The reason why you're having difficulty is because your order of progression is wrong.

1) Beat Campaign on all difficulties except nightmare.
- I would start on Medium, and work your way towards Insane.

2) Once you have bested the campaign, got a few levels, and are fimilar with the game, you should be moving onto Survival.
Start on hard, if hard is too easy, bump up to insane.

Insane Surivival Hardcore (Waves 20+) will give you the gear which will bring the nightmare difficulty down. You will see 100^ godlys, and 60^ Mythicals drop.

This is the step people ignore before going into Nightmare. Instead, they'll hit 74, hit the shops, buy their Mythicals, and think they'll stand a chance in Nightmare. Most will fail.

And try not to follow every single guide you get. Try coming up with your own layouts and strategies to beat maps (the only point of the game.) Play around with different pets and what not. The one thing I hate about some of the DD players, is that they're followers. They await for others to progress and leech off their success and builds. Then, when they have aquired the best gear and a new enemy is released, they don't have the skills to progress on their own and now say its impossible.

Dont worry, we will have rational gear progression, accessibility and fun next week.


Good, take all the whiners with you too. :)

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Sydiko is a sexy poster. SING IT BRUDDA


Just speaking from what occurs every week. Lol

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The Problem is, that the first 4 difficulties are not balanced. Easy, Middle, Hard and Insane are nearly the same, then you go nightmare and you get 3 new annoying mobs to handle. That is the Problem. As i started the game, the first 2 maps i played on medium, then i switched to hard. To adjust the difficulty would be a good start, something like this:

easy = easy like now (its way to easy, most players will ignore easy and start at medium or hard)
medium = hard like now
hard = insane + spiders
insane = spiders + djinns
nightmare = spiders + djinns + sharken

Or individual settings with checkboxes like *hardmode* oder *mixed mode*, then you can turn of sharken, spiders or djinns. This would be the right way, to let the game be more fun.

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The reason why you're having difficulty is because your order of progression is wrong.

1) Beat Campaign on all difficulties except nightmare.
- I would start on Medium, and work your way towards Insane.

2) Once you have bested the campaign, got a few levels, and are fimilar with the game, you should be moving onto Survival.
Start on hard, if hard is too easy, bump up to insane.

Insane Surivival Hardcore (Waves 20+) will give you the gear which will bring the nightmare difficulty down. You will see 100^ godlys, and 60^ Mythicals drop.

This is the step people ignore before going into Nightmare. Instead, they'll hit 74, hit the shops, buy their Mythicals, and think they'll stand a chance in Nightmare. Most will fail.

And try not to follow every single guide you get. Try coming up with your own layouts and strategies to beat maps (the only point of the game.) Play around with different pets and what not. The one thing I hate about some of the DD players, is that they're followers. They await for others to progress and leech off their success and builds. Then, when they have aquired the best gear and a new enemy is released, they don't have the skills to progress on their own and now say its impossible.



Good, take all the whiners with you too. :)


I agree with everything you said and I can say that I pretty much followed the path you described. I completed all of the campaigns up through insane and figured I was ready to tackle nightmare. Atleast I figured I could use the gear I had from making my way through insane to complete the first few stages of nightmare to get better gear. Just like I had on the rest of the levels. Didn't work out for me very well. It's just not obvious to go from insane campaign to insane survival without first stopping in the forums and reading other peoples posts about progression being broken.

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The Problem is, that the first 4 difficulties are not balanced. Easy, Middle, Hard and Insane are nearly the same, then you go nightmare and you get 3 new annoying mobs to handle. That is the Problem. As i started the game, the first 2 maps i played on medium, then i switched to hard. To adjust the difficulty would be a good start, something like this:

easy = easy like now (its way to easy, most players will ignore easy and start at medium or hard)
medium = hard like now
hard = insane + spiders
insane = spiders + djinns
nightmare = spiders + djinns + sharken

Or individual settings with checkboxes like *hardmode* oder *mixed mode*, then you can turn of sharken, spiders or djinns. This would be the right way, to let the game be more fun.


Um, I enjoyed easy when the game came out: I played easy solo using all four heroes until I beat the campaign, then repeated on medium, then hard - I enjoyed the progression (no grinding); I don't know if that's still possible, but I suspect it is.

I think the sub-nightmare difficulties work well, and I'm holding off judgement for nightmare until its generally available.

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easy = easy like now (its way to easy, most players will ignore easy and start at medium or hard)
medium = hard like now
hard = insane + spiders
insane = spiders + djinns
nightmare = spiders + djinns + sharken

Or individual settings with checkboxes like *hardmode* oder *mixed mode*, then you can turn of sharken, spiders or djinns. This would be the right way, to let the game be more fun.


I agree the difficulty needs a tweak but I think the extra monsters should stay out of the early stuff. Maybe like:

easy = could be a bit tougher, it's mostly a breeze with 0 stats from what I've played
medium = like the current hard
hard = like the current insane
insane = harder than current insane, faster monsters with higher damage and hp
nightmare = same as it is now with all of the extra monsters

(I think nightmare could do without all of the different buffs and nerfs to player damage, tower damage, trap damage, on and on and on.. I'm probably missing something but I can't get why it doesn't just scale way up from insane. Even the different resists in NM is weird but too many bajillions of mana has been invested in armor resists to change that now. /rant)

I like the idea of checkboxes for different monsters, maybe they could be put into a custom difficulty setting. I'd like to have a menu like:

Custom Match
Map = any map
Monster toughness = easy - nightmare
Build Timer = on/off
Hardcore = on/off
Mix Mode = on/off
Survival = on/off
---Monster count = 1 - 10000 (or whatever)
---Waves = 1 - ?
Spiders = y/n
Djinn = y/n
Sharken = y/n
Part4 monster = y/n
Ogres =y/n
Normal monsters = y/n

Xp and item quality could still be rewarded in ranked(possibly?) based on the combination of settings, and it would allow some interesting new variety in gameplay on the current maps. You could basically make up challenges, which could be fun. Sharken Crush nmhc survival on the Sky o Love map anyone?

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The one thing I hate about some of the DD players, is that they're followers. They await for others to progress and leech off their success and builds. Then, when they have aquired the best gear and a new enemy is released, they don't have the skills to progress on their own and now say its impossible.


Just snipped that bit out to say that whilst there probably are players like that I'd guess there are also a sizeable majority for whom strategy and planning is difficult and hence those people will hit a brick wall when, for example, the Sharken are released and must wait for others to find the solutions.

Not everyone's a General - you need grunts in the world too - people who's skills lie in other directions, but who also enjoy the building and looting and completing maps - even using someone else's build.

A game needs to encompass as much of the human game playing population as possible these days to have any chance at longevity with the accountants monitoring sales and support. As players we should be more accommodating to people of all abilities, but, as with every forum and every game I've ever seen online it always seems to degenerate into a separation of the 'hardcore' and the casuals - neither of which can exist without the other.

Game players these days are a fickle bunch. It doesn't take much to quit a game and move onto the next thing, and rarely do those players return for any length of time, and so revenue is lost for the game developer. Sure more people will buy and join, but if the same underlying issues are present that are driving people away at a certain point, then they will leave too.

*shrugs* Just my take on things. I think any player lost is a great shame and a failure of both community and game developer.

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I play LAN games with family, and mostly solo, and I was able to progress form Insane to Nightmare doing the 2-3 first waves of Spire 20 times, until I was able to complete it. Then I did Spire Survival until I got full sets of mythical for all my caracters.

Then I did alot of Monster fest (level 60 one) in Nightmare, then I was stalled... couldn't progress for a good week... I was trying alot of different things in Nightmare, but I was stucked... then I was able to finally complete Glitter Nightmare after countlest hours and hours... :( Then Glitter Nightmare Survival HC.

Progression was sooooo slow. :(

Then I got lucky, and got a crazy great Seahorse on my first try Aquanos Survival HC Insane. :)

And this unblocked me and made me progress really fast now. I was able to kill the Spider Queen on Nightmare yesterday because of that crazy Seahorse! I love him. I'm now doing Mysty Nightmare Hardore Solo Survival runs, wearing full sets of high-end mythicals, and went from 500/600/400/400 (was stucked there for weeks) on all my caracters to 900/1100-1200/700/800 in less then one day because of that Seahorse! :)

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I've done almost nothing other than solo and i've broken into NM (kinda). I can get to wave 20 on magus quarters before getting stomped, and could probably go further once i figure out better builds!
I refuse to use other people's builds aswell! It's hard, but you just gotta keep going at it and make sure to know what levels you should be doing to progress..


(I'd probably have alot less trouble if i bought the Series EV dlc..)

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Tbh i think trendy is killing this game.
It now caters for only the elitest who got the gear before the new mobs.
So to them it's easy but to us trying to break into nightmare solo i might add it's not possible without having to buy gear from afk shops.Also ninja adding extra ogres and other mobs don't help as well.

Also it's getting a bit old when you lot keep saying learn new setups ect ect,don't you lot think we trying that already,but still finding it almost imposable to progress now.

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I strongly suggest new players play through the newer content on insane. This includes challenges as well as Aquanos survival. The seahorse pet from Aquanos can be pretty sick from insane, and provide a massive stat jump. Once you get going, OMF is a good place to get lower-mid range NM myths and its not that difficult.


I've been regularly getting seahorses that give +250 to 3 tower (or hero stats) off of insane. Better than 95% of the pets I've gotten off of nightmare survivals. I still think the gear drops on insane could use some improvement though.

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