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May 2012 Walls Moving Ruining Game


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I see two problems here.

The first is that, even though a single sharken can cost you the game, sharken are pretty easily handled by a combination of strength drain aura/darkness trap, inferno trap/lightning aura, and gas trap that requires an additional 10-12 DU per lane. If you were on the cusp where you could barely beat nightmare campaign, or barely beat survival on a map, or barely start at wave 20, now you can't. And since you can't, you have pretty much no way to improve your gear without farming mana and buying it from people's stores just to get back to where you were before, farming mana and sifting through people's stores isn't fun. Defending dungeons is fun.

Here's an example!

Before sharken, I had magus quarters NMHCMM survival on solo farm (not afk farm, just farm). After sharken, I can still beat it, because I adjusted my build. It took an additional 13 du per lane, and I was able to handle that, but there is no way in hell i would have been able to if my gear wasn't where it was from spending the previous month farming content that is suddenly much more difficult and less rewarding (the down side of smaller waves unfortunately is fewer items).


The second problem is gear progression. My best friend, my wife, and I have completed non QftLES survivals at least a dozen times, and completed countless monsterfests. We have, between the three of us seen a total of 4 transcendent, three of which sucked. The problem isn't that the same percentage of transcendent sucks as regular gear, the problem is that spending 2 hours slogging through survival is giving us a 10% chance of getting a single transcendent that *probably sucks*. I'm sure the drops are better in expansion survivals, but you've got to be able to gear up for them first.

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The post is basically a repost of most of the other sharken suck post. But it isn't just about sharken. There are other factors that instantly remove defenses without actually damaging them. Djinn can desummon, and bosses can bump defenses. So it's more then just sharken.

Defenses that don't even get to slow mobs down aren't defenses anymore. And fixing them is a pain in the ***. But that involves two matters other then them moving. Moving them back, and placing them better in the first place. It doesn't mean that sharken and bosses affecting them should be removed.

First as to placing defenses better. Most people defend at the crystal. It's generally a good way to do it, because you only have to defend one point instead of 10 points. Unfortunately this has to change. If you place your defenses at the crystal, then sharken see them from far off and charge before they get shot down. They charge in a straight line roughly. They only prep their charge if they have a straight line to their target. So place your defenses around corners instead of at the far end of the hallway.

When the sharken will turn a corner, kill him there. That is the big answer. It takes a bit of adaptability to use your du's right and counter sharken at the right corners, but that is pretty much the better way to do it.

Glitches like them charging while stunned ends up happening, but will probably be dealt with. As for them not getting targeted while charging. Of course they don't get targeted then. No defense changes target without it's first target dying. If there is an ogre being targetted then it has to die before the towers can target the sharken. That is the way the game works. If your defenses are shooting an ogre instead of being ready for any sharken, then they will get the chance to charge and tear everything up. It's hard to say that it is easy to make sure the ogre is dead before the sharken comes around, but that is the answer. If you are placing to shoot the sharken before it can try to charge, then you will probably have towers ready to shoot the sharken even though other towers are shooting the ogre.

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i love how you are preaching to me about this when you're the worst at not reading.


How so? I'm 100% confident in my ability to understand you failed to read his post, and now you've failed to read my post.

Oh well.

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I am 1 player that has stopped playing... currently gone back to playing S.P.A.Z till there is some kind of progression.. at the moment i cant clear any of the survivals.. i have NEVER seen a trans item drop. ill try again once part 4 is out.. but till then im spending my time on other games.

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I haven't been playing a lot recently but i did pre-order the eternia crystals DLC and have come back at every new part release. At first the sharkens for aquanos surprised me a little but i actually readjusted my build mid wave and then had no further problems with them(meaning my build was self-sustaining and didn't require me to back it up much), except for the boss wave but i still beat the boss in enough time to save the crystal.

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I see people saying how a moved wall is insta-death. I dont understand this. With a proper build even a lane with a moved wall can hold against the harshest of rushes when supported by a DPS character. If you are trying to solo, well, bring a friend, it helps alot, the game is designed to be multi-player, not build and AFK solo.

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I don't think the issue is with the strength of the Sharken. I think its with the tediousness of dealing with it afterwards. They should be able to break through once in a while, else they're just big orcs. There needs to be an option to move a defense a short distance, it'd make repositioning builds more convenient and give players an active response to Sharken damage. Long cast time maintains the team aspect that the player may need cover and short distance and moderate cooldown would prevent abuse of re-aiming or moving defenses to counter different parts of a wave differently.

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I don't think the issue is with the strength of the Sharken. I think its with the tediousness of dealing with it afterwards. They should be able to break through once in a while, else they're just big orcs. There needs to be an option to move a defense a short distance, it'd make repositioning builds more convenient and give players an active response to Sharken damage. Long cast time maintains the team aspect that the player may need cover and short distance and moderate cooldown would prevent abuse of re-aiming or moving defenses to counter different parts of a wave differently.

I'd like to see this, maybe instead of a cooldown it only moves the defense back to where it was first constructed?


Sharken moving your defenses isn't too much of a problem ordinarily, the problem occurs for me in the later waves when sharken have a ton of health and you nearly always have several ogres spamming their projectiles so you can't actually construct a replacement.

I think the main problem with sharken is there is no good counter for them, for spiders you can use traps/shock beams for instance and Djinn I've found don't stand a chance against a buff beamed tower.

Sharken? Sure you could use traps but in the later waves they don't do enough damage, coupled with my harpoons preferring the ogres that are harmlessly wailing on my walls over the sharken there is no reliable counter.
The other trouble is, when you are at the position where prior you can AFK now you can't, instead you have to sit there with the map open waiting for sharken and I am forced to stay on my wall builder for when the inevitable occurs...

I don't like sharken.

Will I stop playing because of it?
Probably not..



Though thinking about it I have noticed I'm playing less since sharken and I feel less inclined to run nightmare survivals, but correlation does not always equal causation and it could just be I'm growing bored of a game I've clocked over 300 hours on...

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I'd like to see this, maybe instead of a cooldown it only moves the defense back to where it was first constructed?


Sharken moving your defenses isn't too much of a problem ordinarily, the problem occurs for me in the later waves when sharken have a ton of health and you nearly always have several ogres spamming their projectiles so you can't actually construct a replacement.

I think the main problem with sharken is there is no good counter for them, for spiders you can use traps/shock beams for instance and Djinn I've found don't stand a chance against a buff beamed tower.

Sharken? Sure you could use traps but in the later waves they don't do enough damage, coupled with my harpoons preferring the ogres that are harmlessly wailing on my walls over the sharken there is no reliable counter.
The other trouble is, when you are at the position where prior you can AFK now you can't, instead you have to sit there with the map open waiting for sharken and I am forced to stay on my wall builder for when the inevitable occurs...

I don't like sharken.

Will I stop playing because of it?
Probably not..



Though thinking about it I have noticed I'm playing less since sharken and I feel less inclined to run nightmare survivals, but correlation does not always equal causation and it could just be I'm growing bored of a game I've clocked over 300 hours on...


i was able to break into wave 23 misty before patch
im now barely able to go wave 13

i was running multipul survivals a night prior to sharks
now im barely playing 1 map (not just survivals) now because of them.

sharks made me play less because its less rewarding.

i really thing djin and sharks should be tickable things like hardcore and mix mode that would enable better gear drops or a gear multplier. that way people can still gear up like they could with just spiders and work their way up to dealing with the sharks.

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I see people saying how a moved wall is insta-death. I dont understand this. With a proper build even a lane with a moved wall can hold against the harshest of rushes when supported by a DPS character. If you are trying to solo, well, bring a friend, it helps alot, the game is designed to be multi-player, not build and AFK solo.


On wave 25+ on higher end maps, a crystal wil survive two hits from an ogre - i.e. less than 2 seconds once it's in range. If there is two or three ogres at a wall, a single sharken charge on that wall will cause an instant loss with no ability to do anything even if you are standing right there.

Personally I think the main problem with sharken currently is that gas trap doesn't interrupt windup. That takes the difficulty of managing them from reasonable to unreasonable. It means that a perfect layout will get sharken charges at entirely unpredictable intervals unless you spend the round frantically running from trap to trap and shooting the sharks yourself.

Also, I don't like that gas trap is the only defense against both sharks and djinn. It's obviously workable, but seems very inelegant.

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I don't use traps and I'm okay. Figure out new builds.


This.. I tried the gas trap builds because everyone was swearing by them, but they just don't hold. Especially against sharks.

Learn To Lightning Tower. LTLT.

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I have around 1-1.5k stats and have had almost no issues with sharken. for survival, id GLADLY take sharken and 4k mobs over 8k mobs, no sharken. all you have to do is take away 1 lonely harpoon and add a gas trap and proxie or whatever where needed. oh and you guys not being able to find good good builds? theyre all around you!!! have you checked the guide section?!?!?!?! its filled to the brim with working builds from Kandar and now some other guys!

Before sharken, on those maps with the giant zergs of stuff, i couldnt get past wave 15 in some cases. now i can easily get 25... means better progression... all you have to do is make it mix mode and modify a little bit.....

I do agree that they should be stopped by all gas traps they are in range of, like as djinn are. but that should be a simple fix, and for now, auras, inferno and gas seem to work quite well...

i dont see the issue and i tend to go on the side of loving them sharkmen.

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I personally lost some kind of interest in the game after the Shark patch.
Not 100% sure on the reason why, but this is the case.
It is not a reason of not being able to handle them, I perfectly do, but you know I think that Djiin and Sharks somehow changed the way we played the game. Let's take acquanos: you have 160 DU and you can beat it using 5 or 6 towers, totaling a 30 DU, some 20 DU in walls and all the rest is anti shark, and anti djiin. It is not anymore what tower I place, where I place it, how much damage does it deal, or how much damage do I deal. It is all let's try not to get my wall moved, not to get unsummoned. Can you remember the good times when you had a DPS character to kill ogres?!? Now you have a seahorse for the same job, and on mixed mode even if you have 350k HP and 90% you can be oneshotted.
I don't think the game is ruined because it is still fun but what has been ruined a bit is the "direction" of the game, the "feeling of the game". I don't know if you feel the same, though :)

Anyways this game might have 8 days of play left so...

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Personally I think the main problem with sharken currently is that gas trap doesn't interrupt windup. That takes the difficulty of managing them from reasonable to unreasonable.

Lightning towers and shock traps do. Sounds like your build isn't half as perfect as you thought it was.

Sharken are perfectly reasonable between 3-5 different ways to counter them. (If you also count lightning stance and player damage)

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i agree that these sharkens need a fix.

They break walls random and their is not a working way to handle them.. and respective to the diablo3 release this should happen very very soon.

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i agree that these sharkens need a fix.

They break walls random and their is not a working way to handle them.. and respective to the diablo3 release this should happen very very soon.


As I just pointed out there are 5 different ways to handle them. The most effective now being the lightning tower. Seriously, one lightning tower per crystal renders all djinn/sharkless that come near good builds completely useless. They try to wind up? Shocked/interrupted/stunned for a while!! A djinn tries to desummon? Shocked/interrupted/stunned for a while!!!

I'm a little sad that they didnt come up with unique counter-measures for djinn and sharken and the same tactics work for both of them (gas trap, lightning towers, shock beams) but they'd have to add more DU to make that work out well.

Players need to stop whining about Sharken to try to get their 3-4 harpoons per lane builds back and just accept that they are here to stay and LEARN how to deal with them. Trendy is trying to teach you how to intelligently use your towers in co-operation with each other rather than try to cluster-screw the enemies with one overpowered tower.

Sharken are EASY to deal with now. And I'm sure Jeremy would shed a little tear if he has to nerf them again when they are so completely viable as-is.

Also, noone really cares much about the diablo 3 release if they are playing an indie game. Most of the players here are adamant about shelling out $3 for DLC that would make the game easier for them. Not sure why you think they'd go off and spend $60 on Diablo 3. They are different markets to begin with and I highly, highly doubt an indie developer is worried about competing with one of the biggest video game companies in the world.

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got to wave 35 mixed mode morrago and not one wall was moved so you just need to adjust your build.
try aquanos and then see how far you get.

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I see no problems here.

http://screensnapr.com/v/XS8kNl.jpg


nice, i was just pointing out, that the older maps such as misty and moraggo are so easy that sharken don't prove a threat, the lanes are straight where as there are actually curves in aquanos which make them much more difficult to deal with especially while playing solo. i've adjusted my builds over and over and over again to where it makes this so frustrating to play i've tried multiple traps in lanes, auras, lowering the number of harpoons to make more individual lane damage and its just not working, all chars have over 2500 tower attack and sharken are busting right through gas traps while stunned they start charging which makes no sense at all.

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80% isn't a fair number, but I know more than a few people that I know that are leaving the game if Sharken aren't addressed / changed by Part 4. Since we all know Part 4 is just going to make Nightmare even harder/more unplayable.

Also people pointing out "Hey just adjust your build" grats on having 2K+ stats on multiple builders. People who want to farm gear to get to that level can't do it on insane, but we still have to deal with those same Sharken.

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Can I get an AMEN community?

not from me! i actually like that the game evolves.

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got to wave 35 mixed mode morrago and not one wall was moved so you just need to adjust your build.


Really helps when you have someone in every lane to shoot them down doesn't it. Solo play has taken a serious hit with them though.

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Also people pointing out "Hey just adjust your build" grats on having 2K+ stats on multiple builders. People who want to farm gear to get to that level can't do it on insane, but we still have to deal with those same Sharken.


Too true, since getting to 1.5k stats after about 200 hours I have been unable find any decent upgrades in the following 300 hours of NMHC survival, mostly on mistymire, I used to be able to get to wave 30 on misty which started to occasionally drop gear that indicated that if I got real lucky an upgrade may drop, but then they added sharken and I rarely survive past wave 20 now and the loot quality hasn't got any better. In fact with all the new items they've added the loot quality is dropping making it much harder to find anything decent, and there's no way to really go from 1.5k to 2.5k without help from people who already had 2k gear (or hacks which I refuse to use).

I give up, Trendy insist on botching the game and I'm just not prepared to put up with it any more. I sunk way too much time into the game and severely regret it, and while they have already got my money I'm strongly recommending that no one else I know get it.

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