Is there a... purpose to the Apprentice class?

Hi, folks.

I was just doing some testing—my plan was to raise an EV's Tower HP stat. and use an Apprentice for NM Survival (whenever I get the DLC). Everyone uses Squire builders, and I figured they did so for the obvious superiority in HP. So I'd make use of the Apprentice's superior DPS while it was behind a very sturdy EV wall. I thought that the reason so many Squires out-DPSed me was because they've been better geared, since they've been used so much more.

... I think I was wrong.

Currently, on my Apprentice, I've got about 500 Tower HP, 1700 Tower Attack, 800 Attack Rate, and 600 Range/Radius. The DPS of one Fire Tower is 92,265 with an App. Guardian (on the dummy in my Tavern). I dropped all my equipment and equipped my Squire with it—whose level is lower and couldn't use the staff weapon (so I just didn't use a weapon).

The DPS of his Harpoon, despite having inferior stats, was 108,910 (again, including the same App. Guardian). Alright, so the Harpoon Gun out DPSs my App. tower by about 15,000 damage a second despite having >50 less of each tower stat. It costs 1 more DU, but has piercing and no elemental association. There must be a range difference, then?

There is a range difference: The Harpoon Tower has a range of 34.57 while the Fire Tower has a range of 29.76.

So... um... is this one of them there jokes? O.o
With worse stats, the Squire's Harpoon Gun has a much higher DPS and out ranges the Apprentice's towers. On top of that, it has piercing and there's no need to worry about elemental resistance because it's attacks don't have any elemental association. It's a given that Squire towers would have a much higher HP value... but higher everything else, too?

I don't get it.
Is there a point to even using my Apprentice anymore? I'm considering just switching all his equipment over to my Squire, as much as I don't want to.

Squire towers are raw DPS towers while app towers have different utilities, eg. the lightning tower can temporarily stun multiple mobs via chain attack and deal good dmg.

Apprentice fire turrets also do splash(aoe) damage though don't they?
Harpoons don't splash.

Harpoons can hit multiple enemies standing behind each other though - which is way more efficient if you have them coming in a straight line rather than "grouping up".

Look at the DU costs. You can make three fireballs in the space it takes to make 2 harpoons. Also, fireballs miss less, and are the most efficient dps/du in the game.

every tower has it's different uses, I find mixes of all towers work better than just stacking harps in a line :)

Harpoon Turrets only cost 6. Two turrets would then cost 12you can only make two Fire Towers in that span, not three.

Thanks for the replies, gents, but I was hoping for something a bit more... concrete.

The "utility" of App. towers is nothing compared to the utility of Squire towers. A fully upgraded Lightning Tower, for 7 DU, will stun up to 20 monsters. Otherwise, MM and Fire Towers work just like less effective Harpoon Towers. Squires also have pretty solid walls and a good means of thwarting spiders.

It doesn't seem like a lot of the professed "uses" of App. towers over Squire towers are... well... actual uses. I've been doing more and more testing, questioning, observing, etc. since I posted a couple of hours ago, and I've come to the conclusion that Apps are pretty useless.

Sorry, my dear Apprentice. =\

Also fireball towers are inferior for killing multiple ogres which happens end game... so yeah...

You will see some builds that pair up Fireballs with Harpoons. The splash damage from Fireballs will attract the attention of multiple ogres that have fanned out, while Harpoons can only hit multiples if they are in a straight line. Ogres focusing on distant towers means less smashing on walls. It's a good combo for everything else, too.

Lightning Towers are a bit on the unpredictable side, but it is amazing sometimes just how far away they'll reach. I've seen my LT placed at the NE crystal in Misty arc all the way over to mobs hanging out near the west crystal on more than one occasion. The same tower has killed targets all the way back at the NE spawn. They're best at dealing with clusters or steady streams of smaller mobs: they can fill the same role as a Proximity Trap without the need to constantly repair it (though the difference in DU makes them an appropriate choice for this only if 1 tower can cover where you would have placed 2 traps). They're the only ranged defense that can target any direction. You don't need a lot of these: 1-3 (depending on map size) will serve you well.

DST aren't commonly used because of their low DPS for their high DU cost. They do, however, shoot through walls. I think they might have the longest range of any defense, too. No pierce and slow speed tends to make them a bit impractical, but they're really good at getting mobs who like to sit around corners (necros) if you can afford to squeeze them into your build.

One last thing that's worth mentioning is that App towers are elevated. The difference isn't much, but there are spots where the App tower will be able to see over terrain, but the Harpoon can't (eg. behind hedges in Royal Gardens). Most people choose the "don't build there" route, so it probably won't impact you much either way.

This concrete enough for you? Howabout Damage per DU.
Fireball: 92265/5 = 18453
Harpoon: 108910/6 = 18151

They are roughly equivalent in raw DPS if you look at it this way. 5 harpoons vs 6 fireball towers will be nearly identical, however their application uses are much different (as mentioned above).

Also fireball towers are inferior for killing multiple ogres which happens end game... so yeah...

I actually disagree with this. I specifically use fireball towers end-game to simultaneously aggro a bunch of ogres to try and attack it with a wall in between. Harpoons can't do this unless the lane is, like, 3 feet wide.

Fireballs can be body-blocked by an ogre, shutting off ALL dps from the turrets to targets behind the ogre. Harpoons continue to DPS the narrow beam behind the ogre.

That's not a small issue. There are situational uses for fireballs, but very much by and large, the harpoon is a superior turret. And this is coming from someone who very much wants to see Apprentice towers viable and returned to the fore. A single ogre can shut off a VERY large amount of post-first-target damage if you throw fireballs.

As for the Lightning Turret, yeah, sure, it can reach lots of non-electric targets at range, randomly and unreliably. For one more point, you can have a slow and an electric, and consistently kill ALL the non-electric targets as they get closer, and drag down the electric ones for your harpoons to kill. The LT's only real place is on a Monsterfest for that reason.

I wanted to be a big fan of the Apprentice turret after 7.32 was released. Did a lot of experimenting, though, and came to this conclusion:

If Pure Apprentice turrets gets you to wave 20, Pure Squire will get you to wave 25. In a great many cases, a mix is actually best (Karathiki northlands, for example) and will take you furthest of all. Aside from monsterfests, though, if you want one kind of turret, you don't want apprentice.

there are uses for most towers at the moment depending on the map and your style of build (unless you just copy forum builds)

i use fireball towers for Deeperwell NMHC MM under the cover of str auras .

i basically just set up any hero that is empty on my hero list and think of ways to use the effectively with tower du cost as a guide.

If Pure Apprentice turrets gets you to wave 20, Pure Squire will get you to wave 25. In a great many cases, a mix is actually best (Karathiki northlands, for example) and will take you furthest of all.

It specifically tells you in the game in loading screen tips that this is intended functionality.. "For the best results a mix of towers from different heroes will be required." (Or something to that effect. I'm paraphrasing)

Although I disagree with your numbers there, I'm just not sure how the game working as intended (in one of the rare cases it actually is) is a problem. I mean when it says in-game that no hero is supposed to solo as well as a mix of towers, I'd just have to assume that 'No hero is supposed to solo as well as a mix of tiowers'. Call me crazy.

Your forgetting how much more hp harpoons have. This really comes into play on high waves of survival and bosses. Also they have roughly same du per dps cost but one is an element..fireball needs a slight damage buff. Dst is trash currently and needs a rework.

This concrete enough for you? Howabout Damage per DU.
Fireball: 92265/5 = 18453
Harpoon: 108910/6 = 18151

They are roughly equivalent in raw DPS if you look at it this way. 5 harpoons vs 6 fireball towers will be nearly identical, however their application uses are much different (as mentioned above).

Except as noted his numbers include different stats for the 2 characters. The two towers are pretty close, but harpoon is the higher of the two in DPS/DU. If you want numbers for the same stats

7.26b PC version - Nightmare Map
HP /Att /Rng/Spd
781/1602/xxx/803

Single Target Only

DPS/DU Defense DU
2,406 Lightning Tower 7 - Boosted in recent Patch
1,903 Electric Aura 5 - Boosted in recent Patch
3,640 Inferno Trap 4
4,115 Spike Barricade 3
6,326 Shock Beam 6
7,284 SnD 8
7,591 Shock Beam 5
8,331 Ethereal Spike Trap 3
8,518 Deadly Striker 8
8,815 Proximity Trap 3
9,173 Proton Beam 5
9,489 Shock Beam 4
11,467 Proton Beam 4
12,652 Shock Beam 3
14,603 Fireball Tower 5
15,179 Harpoon 6
15,289 Proton Beam 3
17,170 Bowling Ball 7
18,978 Shock Beam 2
20,744 Magic Missle 3
20,902 Bouncer 4
22,933 Proton Beam 2

I kind of see it like this. There are some maps where once you put the auras and traps in place, you will be just a few DU short of setting up squire towers the way want. The apprentice towers are cheaper so usually you can do this, and though less effective individually they can cover a wider area which might make them the better choice for a particular map.

Except as noted his numbers include different stats for the 2 characters. The two towers are pretty close, but harpoon is the higher of the two in DPS/DU. If you want numbers for the same stats

7.26b PC version - Nightmare Map
HP /Att /Rng/Spd
781/1602/xxx/803

Single Target Only

DPS/DU Defense DU
2,406 Lightning Tower 7 - Boosted in recent Patch
1,903 Electric Aura 5 - Boosted in recent Patch
3,640 Inferno Trap 4
4,115 Spike Barricade 3
6,326 Shock Beam 6
7,284 SnD 8
7,591 Shock Beam 5
8,331 Ethereal Spike Trap 3
8,518 Deadly Striker 8
8,815 Proximity Trap 3
9,173 Proton Beam 5
9,489 Shock Beam 4
11,467 Proton Beam 4
12,652 Shock Beam 3
14,603 Fireball Tower 5
15,179 Harpoon 6
15,289 Proton Beam 3
17,170 Bowling Ball 7
18,978 Shock Beam 2
20,744 Magic Missle 3
20,902 Bouncer 4
22,933 Proton Beam 2

Except of course while a magic missile is always single target damage, the harpoon is very frequently triple or quadruple, which throws the math right out the window. The fireball, though, when bodyblocked by an ogre, IS single-target damage, which is why it struggles so badly as a mainstay turret against the harpoon.

Except of course while a magic missile is always single target damage, the harpoon is very frequently triple or quadruple, which throws the math right out the window. The fireball, though, when bodyblocked by an ogre, IS single-target damage, which is why it struggles so badly as a mainstay turret against the harpoon.

Honestly I don't really know why people feel the need to respond to the numbers I posted with statements like these.

I'm not quite sure why you quoted me, maybe I'm assuming too much, but I never even mentioned magic missile other than in my list. I realize that harpoons pierce and magic missiles do not. The point of the numbers is to have a common base to go off of. Electric aura hits everything inside the aura, but I didn't include its dps/du multiplied by 50 targets because it isn't very useful to assume number of targets unless you give it context. I post the numbers so we're all on the same page when people disagree with which tower does the most single target dps. When placing a tower, single target dps/du is only one consideration, but it is one of the considerations that is easy to have set numbers for.

Also, math doesn't go out the window, it merely gets more complicated.



Back on the main subject. Another reason squires are used so much is because up until a recent patch. Squire towers were doing 60% more dmg than they do now, and they had way more hit points in comparison to other classes. At that point they were so much better that there was basically no comparison.

I was quoting you in order to reference your numbers. I'm not attacking you or suggesting ignorance on your behalf. I'm merely advancing the debate and pointing to the problem. Your information is valuable and continues the debate - I'm just basing on it. The magic missile is by far the highest single-target-turret DPS - why it's a decent "monkey wrench, small job" turret, but when you start multiplying harpoon damage/DU across its pierce (which never diminishes) and compare it to the fireball which diminishes with splash distance...

Thus my general point and discussion-furthering problem/concern. Damage/du/single target is a valid statistic, but damage/du/single SHOT is probably the indicative factor. Or at least "potential damage/du/single shot" - and that's where the harpoon blows everyone else away. That's the problem I'm pointing towards. While the Lightning Tower may actually beat the harpoon on true damage/shot/du, the harpoon's direct fire damage/shot/du is well above any other. Fireballs might come in second to that, but still way behind the harpoon.

I was quoting you in order to reference your numbers. I'm not attacking you or suggesting ignorance on your behalf. I'm merely advancing the debate and pointing to the problem. Your information is valuable and continues the debate - I'm just basing on it. The magic missile is by far the highest single-target-turret DPS - why it's a decent "monkey wrench, small job" turret, but when you start multiplying harpoon damage/DU across its pierce (which never diminishes) and compare it to the fireball which diminishes with splash distance...

Thus my general point and discussion-furthering problem/concern. Damage/du/single target is a valid statistic, but damage/du/single SHOT is probably the indicative factor. Or at least "potential damage/du/single shot" - and that's where the harpoon blows everyone else away. That's the problem I'm pointing towards. While the Lightning Tower may actually beat the harpoon on true damage/shot/du, the harpoon's direct fire damage/shot/du is well above any other. Fireballs might come in second to that, but still way behind the harpoon.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would say the fireball tower should be compensated a bit for its element, but overall the merits of pierce vs splash tend to be fairly close from my experience. Overall pierce is probably better in a vacuum, but when you start adding in gas traps and ensnares and clogging, splash starts to move above. Like most people said though, 1 harpoon and 1 fireball tower is usually better than 2 of either.

Thanks for the replies, gents, but I was hoping for something a bit more... concrete.

I honestly don't know what you were looking for in terms of a 'concrete' response. I say this, because this very topic has been debated time and time again. That said, everyone has come to accept that Squire towers, while more expensive, just work better situationally then the Apprentice towers. Therefore, it is wise to have a Squire as your primary builder for maximum efficiency.

I've come to the conclusion that Apps are pretty useless.

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to, but others may not stand by your point.

If you do a setup that uses 2 Harpoons, use 1 Harpoon and 1 Fireball Turret instead. The Harpoon will kill stuff in a line while the Fireball will splash over to other mobs nearby. You save 1 DU that can be used for a reflection wall or if you save enough DU from multiple combos you can use another tower somewhere. More efficient this way.

The problem is apprentice has one usefully tower that is marginally less useful then harpoons. The apprentice used to be THE tower builder and filled that niche. Now it is a step behind which would be fine if it was a good dps hero. Problem is.. It's not. Intact it is probably the worst dps hero as it lacks survivability and mana bomb, although better, still feels kinda meh.

This leaves the apprentice kinda useless as a hero. Sure it has some uses sometimes, but no one really plays it as their main hero anymore.

Alls dps/du discussions aside, squire also has better defenses and most importantly wont make your eyes bleed from all those flashing effects.
I started playing as an apprentice and loved it, but as my stats got better i noticed that i cant use him anymore, purely because of too much effects going on and slowing my fps big time.