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Squire/Countess Block effectiveness now clamped to 95%


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So can we still upgrade block past 95% it just won't do any good? Cause if we can that means all weapons will be able to brought to 95% and it will make way way more squire weapons more usable. Although overall this is a pretty big nerf.

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god people better get going on the kraken


Yep i wont have time to do it so kraken will stay unbeaten for me. Ohh well i kind of gave up on DD anyhow, guess this helps push me on.

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woohoo gold dews on late game survival are a nightmare, and so is the kraken..


yay for more unneeded nerfs.

i wasnt one of the naysayers who were going to quit, but its quickly getting to that point (ive spent more time just afking in the game than playing it in the last 2 weeks, becuase solo content is now terrible, and im sick of hosting to have people screw it up

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Uneeded. Really uneeded. Especially with the Kraken and Buffed NM Mix DEWs.

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Well, if block at 100% is necessary to handle both DEWs and the Kraken, it sounds like the problem is that they hit too hard for other classes to do it.

If a 95% blocking Squire/Countess can't manage content, how's any other class going to do it? I'm hoping that rather than this being just a nerf, it's a step in bringing Squire/Countess into line with the other classes (presumably by either buffing HP all around, or decreasing the damage players take from mobs in some way).

I certainly don't want to lose my 100% block, but the last time it looked like there was a big nerf to squire (fixing their tower damage) it was followed up by a lot of nerfs to enemies and other balancing changes that made it not nearly as bad. And a 95% cap isn't a huge nerf anyway.

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meh 95% is more than enough for pretty much everything... your not meant to be this unbreakable wall of super dps

if your really having an issue either a fairy pet or a dps pet should help your blocking needs

Edit: This also increases the usefulness of Str drain auras on mix mode

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the point isnt that a 95% cap isnt a huge nerf, its that currently, the kraken one shots any hero with less than 130k hp, and full resists..

gold buffed dews on late wave mix mode (25+ on misty) were doing upwards of 60k a swing, if even for a moment your not paying complete attention to avoiding the dews or kraken, its game over...

blocking squires were at least able to tank for the other members of the team....

now, they wont be able to that, so the only class on the field will be hero boost monks.(watch and see, its already happening,), this isnt balancing, its simply going to shift the favorite of the month to monk dps instead of squire..other than that there wont be any really change (and ive failed the kraken 3 times today, after afking to the boss each time, becuase it REQUIRES hero dps.. (towers have no effect on a boss in a game where the primary focus is towers... brilliant.)

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I don't exactly understand how a blocking squire can't tank for other members of the team now. They're still going to be far, far more survivable than almost anyone else.

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they can still tank for the team, but when a squire take damage (at least today it was doing this) the shield is lowered for a split second, and if they are hit again during that, they take full damage (i got tagged in the side by an archer right before the kraken attacked, and despite my blocking, got one shot by the kraken again)


additionally, 5% damage when getting beat on by 5 or more dews (or one boss that does insane amounts of damage), really adds up, to the points where a dodging hero boosting monk is likely a far better choice to bring than a tank that simply takes less damage than the others, but also doesnt really contribute (oh look, he stands there taking damage and doing none vs a monk that puts out a ton of damage, boosts heroes around him, and isnt required to bring a healing pet just to be effective at staying alive anymore)

the point is, squires are losing one of the key things that made me use mine over a monk..

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apparently in the next patch immortal.. unless, like the sharken change that was removed from the last patch, we can get it changed again.

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yeah. good thing they (un)fixed this rather than work on things that actually need to be fixed. things like, i dont know, everything about the kraken.

or djinn getting stuck inside geometry desummoning towers without being able to be hit.

kobolds juggernautting through walls.

wyverns being unhittable.

wyverns pathing through walls where even if they were hittable, they cant be hit because of collision.

djinn flying to the edge of the skybox.

ogres wall hacking.

but yeah, nope. none of that is important. what is important is nerfing the only good thing about playing a squire/count as an active character.

"players arent dieing enough. how can we remedy this? I GOT IT!! MAKE BLOCKING NOT BLOCK!!!"

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgwlJIo0In0

http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?58074-Upcoming-Patch-Notes

As a squire who was using a 96% block weapon for a while, I never saw that issue of "after blocking a hit, the next hit does full damage." Are you sure you weren't just getting pushed so that things could hit your back? I can especially see the Kraken being able to easily spam some hits on the back of a character if the angle of attack is a bit buggy for some of those attacks.

The real problem seems to be that most characters are non-viable against DEWs in the endgame no matter how well equipped they are, simply because a gold buffed DEW does too much damage too quickly to really be able to do anything about. Same with the Kraken. This nerf wouldn't be such a big deal if the choices of characters weren't so limited that you basically have to choose the 'best' for that situation, rather than them all being good enough that optimizers will pick the best, but players have the freedom to at least choose among several usable ones depending on what fits their personal play style preference.

But I tend to feel like the designers are trying to move away from "optimal or nothing" with a lot of these nerfs, since they seem to be trying to lower the outstanding capabilities of classes so that classes are better than each other situationally, but all have uses, meanwhile lowering the 'spiky' parts of difficulty so that while the game is still challenging there's not situations where it has to be played one specific way or you fail.

I'm hoping that by the time Nightmare is ready for release to everyone we'll see that sort of picture, and this is just going to be one of the rough patches along the way as things get rounded out. Everyone screams "Now I'm leaving!" with every nerf, but Nightmare is still going through a long balancing process, and we won't really know what it'll look like until all the changes have been made.

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Man, Jeremy is on a roll today. First the vertical axis fix, and now this. Power to the people?

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Alrighty folks, you made it clear you reaaaally don't want this to happen, and so it won't :)

-Jer

You scared us for a moment <3
Does make swords with less than 100 block useless, make so we can upgrade over 100?

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llorean,its possible i wasnt hit by the kraken, but then something else had to do over 140k points of damage (theres no way the kraken got behind me, since i was pointed directly at it),

also, i dont necessarily feel that swords with less than 100% are useless (i have numerous that i use for different purposes, but when my squire is blocking the boss so that the team can try for the umpteenth time to kill it, its nice to know that the squire has a purpose)..

but yes, the damage is far far to bursty at late game stages (WOW suffers the same problem, if they make the damage constant, healers either out heal it, or dont, and thats that, but if its bursty its far more of a threat).. if a dew just constantly dealt 2000 damage, there would be a point where the stats of any player would make them a non threat, but on the other hand, making them bursty enough to be a threat to the tankiest of players means that they are a complete nightmare for anyone who isnt that.


While i agree that squires have 100% may be taking the easy mode out for some things, getting rid of it entirely without fixing the problems that caused it to be necessary in the first place wasnt the right call.. I'm glad the devs listened to our responses anddecided the change was ready to be made..


also, theres no way i could quit this game, the withdrawals i would suffer would be terrible.

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to jeremy: why was something like this even considered?

to llorean: there is a lot more work that has to be done to move away from the "optimal or nothing" scenario you are presenting. completely forgetting about how well apprentice towers do or do not perform, the thought of even considering playing them in NM mode on any map past summit is laughable at best. even on my ranger who has 100k hp and 70+% resists, the first 10% of a wave has tons of DEW charges, and as an adept/apprentice, there is no way to survive them because of how quickly they move.

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[c3;455879']to jeremy: why was something like this even considered?

to llorean: there is a lot more work that has to be done to move away from the "optimal or nothing" scenario you are presenting. completely forgetting about how well apprentice towers do or do not perform, the thought of even considering playing them in NM mode on any map past summit is laughable at best. even on my ranger who has 100k hp and 70+% resists, the first 10% of a wave has tons of DEW charges, and as an adept/apprentice, there is no way to survive them because of how quickly they move.

A nurf to there move speed would be nice eh

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[c3;455879']
to llorean: there is a lot more work that has to be done to move away from the "optimal or nothing" scenario you are presenting. completely forgetting about how well apprentice towers do or do not perform, the thought of even considering playing them in NM mode on any map past summit is laughable at best. even on my ranger who has 100k hp and 70+% resists, the first 10% of a wave has tons of DEW charges, and as an adept/apprentice, there is no way to survive them because of how quickly they move.


Yeah, I agree there's a ton more work. But it works better if you start with any nerfs you have planned, then balance around the nerfed state. Otherwise you end up balancing, then nerfing, then balancing again because you got the initial balance wrong for post-nerf players.

Basically, you need to make the situation as bad as you ever plan to first, then make it better, rather than gradually making it worse and worse. The gradual worse and worse generates far more ill will as players see themselves slowly getting nerfed.

It's like taking a bandage off. You just rip it right off, it stings a little, but then things get better. If their plan is to eventually have squires capped at 95% they should do it now, then fix mobs around that 95%. If they're okay with us always being able to 100% (and I'm quite happy if that's the decision they've made) then that's fine. I just think that if they ARE going to nerf us, they should get all the big ones over with for Nightmare nerfs, then fix things around that post-nerf state rather than trying to balance both characters and mobs at the same time.

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nish, that wouldnt fix anything other than a delay in how long they get to you, as soon as they do, its over..

sure, they might get shot at by more towers, but as soon as they make it through, its over..


id almost be in favor of changing DEWS to do a percent of the players health in damage, while it would make health stacking less important for suriving them ( a small nerf to the high hp classes), those classes would still be better off for dealing with anything else that does damage..

again, this would have to be something that it tested drastically first across all difficulty levels, and resistances would have to deal a reduction to the damage done still, but it might be an option to look at (or not... its simply an idea, not a change that should be implemented immediately.)


also, to llorean, the biggest problem with that is that doing it that way makes the game a much much harder experience for the other players... it should be done that way, but in beta testing, not the live game (i know nightmare is in beta, but this change wouldve effected the live content as well, which is not in beta, and should not be treated like it is)

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Honestly, I think I'd just remove the ability for Djinn to buff DEWs. They're dangerous enough without Djinn buffs, and player stats on NM just don't really scale high enough (except maybe in the very top end) to deal with a Djinn buffed DEW.

Without Djinn buffs, a well player statted player can probably deal with them as necessary, but they still pose a decent threat to non-player statted characters, or in groups.

Not really sure what to do about the Kraken, since I do agree it's a bit of a problem that it's basically unkillable without a player DPS character, whereas basically everything else in the game can be managed with a good defense set up and high enough stats, and a player DPS just makes certain things easier rather than being a necessity. I do understand the desire for teamwork, but it feels like this is a sort of shift.

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[c3;455850']yeah. good thing they (un)fixed this rather than work on things that actually need to be fixed. things like, i dont know, everything about the kraken.

or djinn getting stuck inside geometry desummoning towers without being able to be hit.

kobolds juggernautting through walls.

wyverns being unhittable.

wyverns pathing through walls where even if they were hittable, they cant be hit because of collision.

djinn flying to the edge of the skybox.

ogres wall hacking.

but yeah, nope. none of that is important. what is important is nerfing the only good thing about playing a squire/count as an active character.

"players arent dieing enough. how can we remedy this? I GOT IT!! MAKE BLOCKING NOT BLOCK!!!"


If you or anyone else are truly having all these issues please report them here along with any reproducible steps: http://forums.trendyent.com/forumdisplay.php?21-PC-Mac-Tech-Support-amp-Bug-Reports . Even if one person has said it before in the past usually is not enough. Posting about it in a thread not related as well doesn't allow us to gather information to fix the issues since we can't read all responses on the forum in the more talkative section of the forums(patch notes/general). If you make a post about a bug yourself in the technical support(bugs)/game issues of the forums, you may not get a direct response on the issue but we do read all posts made there. The more information you provide the better and allows us a better chance to provide a fix, especially if you can provide easy reproducible steps.

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