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Should the tavern sell custom mana tokens?


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The problem isn't with the economy, it's with the ability for players to determine and build the economy properly.


Love the contradiction, because the economy in games if always based off players. So what you just said there, is you agreeing with me. The problem is the economy.

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Love the contradiction, because the economy in games if always based off players. So what you just said there, is you agreeing with me. The problem is the economy.


Not at all, but I don't care to get into semantics or narcissistic "you're actually agreeing with me" remarks. I'll let you know if I'm agreeing with you. (And I rarely disagree with things you have to say anyways. This was one of the few times because it's simply inaccurate and placing the blame on players and not the shoddily designed market)

Just to keep it a little more clear, you're blaming the economy. I'm blaming the rickety looking planks the economy is built on.

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And I rarely disagree with things you have to say anyways.


Hahaha, that's funny because a lot of people love to argue with me. Nice to know someone agrees with most things I have to say.

Just to keep it a little more clear, you're blaming the economy. I'm blaming the rickety looking planks the economy is built on.


Like that search function you mentioned would help, but you have to remember this isn't a full blown MMO to where they can do that. That's why they have the website for the market. Easy to update and show people what you got for sale, the fact that people don't use it or whatever is their own fault. Those planks just look rickety but they are well built and sturdy, the players are just building off them incorrectly.

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Well, they don't run defendersstore.com.. So not only is it not their fix, but it's still a shoddy system to work with. A system -built into the game- that lets you compare prices to other players would be immensely better than proper use of defendersstore.com. defenders store is loaded with shops that are offline, many of which will never be online again, games that are hard to get into even if you can see that they have the item for sell (Since you have to friend them if their game isnt listed), players doing other things besides run an AFK shop, etc... It's only a simple patch-up for a much bigger issue. That someone else had to bite the bullet and build FOR them since they haven't done it right yet.

Phantasy Star Universe wasn't a full blown MMO either.. It was a mission-based multiplayer game just like this. Just like Diablo II... Just like most of these types of games. It's not really even that difficult to code. Just probably more work than they are willing to put into it.

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I'd love to see a token system such as this.

As for inflation: Prices are that high on end-game upped items because it already costs hundreds of millions and a lot of time to get them to that stage. I don't think charging billions for an upgraded high-end item is all that excessive, to be honest.

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As for inflation: Prices are that high on end-game upped items because it already costs hundreds of millions and a lot of time to get them to that stage. I don't think charging billions for an upgraded high-end item is all that excessive, to be honest.

We weren't talking about end-game upped items. More like un-upgraded myths/trans going for 400-600 mil+ because players know cheaters will pay that for it (Having an infinite mana supply and all) Ya know, items with a vendor value of 7-10-15 mil. Not something that actually has over a billion mana invested in it / etc.

And it doesnt really matter, even on end-game items, a way to provide actual competetive pricing would get rid of all the idiots trying to sell a 1 bil item for 5 bil in tokens.

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to be fair i see no need for this at all i sell 100+ up armour for 10mil mana sometimes 15mil (if its over 170 ups) and sell it fine trans items ive been selling for 100mil wepons armour for 200mil if its over 250 ups fine what anoys me is the game should auto close shops when the caps hit

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Actually, the way the community market is, it's actually it's own fault if 2 billion isn't enough mana....
So in the end, it's the people who have messed up the economy....

Nope, Trendy's fault.

Let me preface this with the following: I am merely a mathematician who dabbles in some economic theory for fun (not for a job). But I am willing to heavily wager this, no one at Trendy is an economist, which means that choices are made upon gut instinct more than anything.

So, with that being said here are the assertions:
1) The advent of superloot created the demand for more mana for players getting superloot. There is no denying this. Look at the differential in prices for upgrading godly -> Myth -> trans -> (wild guess that Supreme costs even more)

2) WAP's are inelastic. There are no substitutes. They tried to address this (unknowingly I imagine) by allowing the tavern to sell items, but that's even more random than drops and definitely less significant that a shop that can hold more than 3 items of a given type at a time. They furthered this chasm by making superloot drops harder to obtain. Now I am not here to argue about the philosophy behind this, whether it is roundoff programming errors, nerfs to the RNG or increased difficulty.

3) I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with nikodareus. :P No single shop holder has any pricing information of their competitors. This in turn means that shop holders are not competing for customers. By keeping pricing information away from others, the shop owners are left to decide prices on their own. However, given the opportunity to compete, the shop owners would actually lower prices. In turn, pricing strategies would be different, and the goods would drop in price across the board as owners are sensitive to price changes. Again, Trendy's fault as they have not imposed a better shop system.

So, the economy is in the state it is in due to the faults of the implementers of the economy. (Wow, I feel like I am complaining about the President of the USA) Everything you see in the market is in reaction to a flawed system. Now it is JUST a game, so I try to remember that as I spend my fake mana on a bunch of binary code. :)

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The only guideline we really have is that items by the tavernkeep can be sold for up to 400 million now already? So I don't really see how it's so outrageous to ask similar prices when you put them in your own shop.

@bc304daedalus
As for shops auto closing right when you hit the mana cap: why? There's plenty of people who sell from floors, aren't afk and can spend the mana to become uncapped. I don't know if you have ever hosted a shop which can get you capped, but I can tell you that it's just as annoying for the owner as for the people who come in. :p

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I'm opposed because all this does is support the over-inflated AFK shop economy. As it is, I've stopped using AFK shops all together, too many people are spending far too much on items driving up the cost ridiculously. If you have to ask more than 600 million for it, there's a problem with the perceived value and IMO you deserve to have it sit on your floor forever.

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3) I can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with nikodareus. :P No single shop holder has any pricing information of their competitors. This in turn means that shop holders are not competing for customers. By keeping pricing information away from others, the shop owners are left to decide prices on their own. However, given the opportunity to compete, the shop owners would actually lower prices. In turn, pricing strategies would be different, and the goods would drop in price across the board as owners are sensitive to price changes. Again, Trendy's fault as they have not imposed a better shop system.
Very well said. The question now is if Trendy wants or can change this.

DefendersStore has some good ideas, but 2 things prevents it from being as useful as it could. 1) No "buy item" function. 2) No "join game/shop" function. And apparently many players dont even know that their items are listed there, so they will never see the messages that potential buyers post on their shop pages.

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I guess the issue here that isn't being discussed is the ridiculously high cost in upgrading certain items.

I have heard of people paying upwards of 200mil for one upgrade level. That's what is driving prices upwards IMO.

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Let's say Trendy has it as worth 10 mil, yet people sell for a ridiculous price. Yes, if it is good it should be sold higher and what not, I know. But to sell something for more then x10+ of the original value of the item is just ludicrous.


It's not ridiculous at all. The programmed value of the items is what's ridiculous.

You have starter myths that might let you get to wave 10 - 15 on the easier NM maps valued at what... like 1 -3 mil each? Fine (though they're still good enough to let you farm hundreds of millions of mana on these maps in a few short hours).

And then you have end game trans that will let you easily let you run the harder maps to complettion valued at maybe 5 - 7 mil a piece. That is way off (maybe it would be better if they weren't so rare).

Maybe my number are slightly off, but you get the idea.

You don't think there's anything wrong with that pricing system? You don't think the players should charge more for something that's so much more functional just because the game says it's worth less?

Basically, the price the game puts on the item means jack.

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Basically, the price the game puts on the item means jack.


This. I don't get why anyone thinks that the price the game puts on items means anything at all. Did any one doing this just skip MMORPGs completely? I'll just use EverQuest as an example since it's what I played for years, people back in the day didn't sell Flowing Black Silk Sashes for 100 platinum, which is ten times what a vendor would give you for it, because they based its value on that vendor price. No, they sold it for at least ~10,000 platinum (at least by the time I started playing) because of how good the item was. No one in other games bases the price of stuff on what a vendor would give you for it, the very idea of doing so is just dumb, so why should people do it here simply because the game has a terrible currency / trading system?

The game needs some kind of currency system overhaul, and something like tavern purchased mana tokens where you don't lose money or a Copper, Silver, Gold, Platinum mana system is desperately needed.

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i don't like the idea of storing mana on weapons as you end up losing alot
we need a change

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The whole trading system is rather useless now with the 600m softcap.
A lot of shops with good stuff are shut down within seconds because they reached the hardcap.
Only solution to the current system would be to generate tokens in tavern and also buy stuff in player-shops with them.

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if they just made a new item to act a token would be good
something like humongous egg value acting as a token

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