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Trendy, have pride in your product! Don't insta-nerf enemies!


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Hi, I'm kinda new to these forums (usually chat on the SPUF forums instead, but its much less active there). Anyway, I want to get out of the way that I have played this game over 200 hours and have loved mostly every minute of it. Getting into Nightmare mode has been a slow and rage inducing process for me, but its been slowly coming along and I'll hopefully be able to progress more smoothly once Eternia shards part 4 is released.

That's not why I'm here though. I'm really concerned about how Trendy is handling the difficulty patches lately.

I'm not going to argue that Nightmare is balanced, because its not in my opinion. Once again, its not my reason for starting this thread. Its about Trendy being too quick to make changes to cater to the community.

See, the Sharken have already been nerfed out the starting gate barely an hour after they've been released. And that is not O.K.

Day 1 patches are O.K. for game-breaking bugs. If the Djinn suddenly started floating under the floor after Moraggo was released, de-summoning my defenses from a point where I could never hope to attack them, it would be O.K. for the community to demand a patch, because its obviously an unintended effect of some coding gone wrong.

In the case of Sharken, Djinn, and Spiders, its always the same. The patch hits Steam, a little over 20 minutes after release there are 20+threads on why the new enemy is overpowered, and Trendy waves the magic nerfhammer around and severely gimps the effectiveness of the new enemies. This has got to stop.

Nerfing the new enemies out of the starting gate brings with it several problems, the biggest for me being that you lose the confidence of your fans. You release the patch, acting like it is a great addition to the game, and promise it will be fun and exciting. Presenting exhibit A, from: http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?56403-*-Raised-Level-Cap-to-83-and-added-hyper-rare-Supreme-item-quality-categorization&p=429260&viewfull=1[[1343,hashtags]]

[QUOTE]Sharken definitely mix up your Tower centric builds... especially... heh heh heh... your physical tower builds

-Jer [/QUOTE]

This quote is definitely inspirational. It signifies a pride in your product, an assurance that players will need to adapt new strategies to overcome new challenges. But when you introduce this an hour after the patch (Exhibit B: http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?14848-Upcoming-Patch-Notes-%287.30b-ETA-4-26%29)...

[QUOTE]* Sharken Charge range reduced by 66%, Sharken Interrupt Damage Health-Percentage Reduced from 25% to 10%, Sharken Charge Time increased by 3x, Sharken Health Reduced by 33%, Sharken numbers reduced on all maps by 50%
[/QUOTE]

and edited by the exact same person, it basically gives your fans the impression that you were wrong all along about your enemy being fun, exciting and innovative. And that's not right. You have to give the community time to adapt to these new difficulty changes, not immediately cater to complaints about "unbalanced" new enemies. Make statements about how you think the Sharken are fine as is, don't steathily insert new patch notes immediately after a release. Defend your product before deciding to change it, at least in terms of difficulty suggestions.

And that brings me to my second point- the beta testers. Yeah, those guys who were working on strategies against Sharken for at least a month (not in the beta team, so I don't have much of an idea on how much time they're given for the new content). You acknowledge they are working hard to bring a new, fun, balanced addition to the game. You obviously have confidence in their ability to do the job, as I haven't seen any new applications for beta testers going around for a while now.

So why, Trendy, are the rampant complaints of players who've only had the content for ONE HOUR more informative of an enemy's balance than a group of dedicated beta testers who have been working on strategies to defeat them for at least a MONTH! The beta testers obviously had some way of defeating the "OMG OP SHARKEN" that the community whines about, otherwise we would not have the patch at all. There is obviously some way to defeat these guys (already I'm seeing threads where players suggest using gas traps and ensnares to stop them), so let us find our own way to stop them before you make it easier for us. It doesn't make you or your beta team look good.

So please Trendy, stop the insta-nerfs. Its not good for your PR for one, and its not good for the sake of balance either. If you are going to gimp new enemies as long as players keep whining, why do you even bother adding them? The point of these guys is to make players think outside the box, to make them challenge their builds in ways they could not have thought of before. I saw plenty of that ingenuity following the Djinn release (with regards to the usage of gas traps, placing towers closer together, etc). Sure, the Djinn were nerfed out the starting gate as well, but I'm sure that the gas trap strategy would have been figured out in a similar amount of time regardless of whether they were nerfed or not.

So please Trendy, before you nerf to cater to the community, think about how it impacts the community. You make the complainers happier, but at what cost? Your pride and reputation as a developer in tatters?

There's nothing wrong with being a company that caters to its fans, but when it gets to the point where you implement serious balance changes at the tip of a hat, well, at least I think it goes just a little too far. Take input for at least a week after enemies are introduced, discuss the common complaints from players (sharken charge time, for example) with the entire Trendy team, and then potentially implement a patch. You'd make a lot more friends doing that than instantly nerfing the new enemies before most people have a chance to properly test them out.

Sorry, no tl;dr.

I'll probably get flamed for this post, but what the hell, its my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Edit: wow, already 0 replies and a 1 star rating. That was fast :p.

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What would you suggest instead of "insta-nerfs?" I'm seeing uploaded videos of purely laughable Sharken. Imagine a Kobold that lights up almost instantly, has health like a mini-ogre and cannot be stopped once charging. Challenge is one thing, this appears to clearly be another.

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What would you suggest instead of "insta-nerfs?" I'm seeing uploaded videos of purely laughable Sharken. Imagine a Kobold that lights up almost instantly, has health like a mini-ogre and cannot be stopped once charging. Challenge is one thing, this appears to clearly be another.


Again, I'm not arguing about specific balance changes. I'm just saying that if you immediately nerf enemies out the starting gate, it gives a pretty bad rep towards Trendy.

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Your entitled to your long opinion and I posted a similar topic once Djinns came out. Then I got home from work and tried to play against them on a few maps and my opinion dramatically changed.

This time around i'm staying with the bandwagon. The concept of a tower being moved was broken to begin with unless it didn't effect walls, and if it didn't effect walls, what would be the point? In late wave Misty ogres have 25-30 million health and move incredibly fast. They can make it from their spawn to your wall in a matter of seconds regardless of ensares (and of course they ignore gas). This means that if a sharken moves a wall a player has maybe 3 seconds to find that wall, unsummon it, then resummon it at lvl 1 at the correct point. By that time another Sharken is either waiting or has moved another wall. Not to mention you now have a Sharken running around your base destroying things, like your crystal.

So if a mob is introduced that is completely game breaking, it's up to Trendy to not have the pride you mentioned above and to fix the bug. I'm not sure the beta test team looks for anything other than bugs to be fixed. The sharken arn't bugged, they are broken.

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Again, I'm not arguing about specific balance changes. I'm just saying that if you immediately nerf enemies out the starting gate, it gives a pretty bad rep towards Trendy.


Sure it does but in all aspects the nerfs have put it to a challenging level not a "there's no way for you to beat this level". It's obvious that they don't do enough testing on changes they make.

Take the survival change, they listened to us (great) and reduced mob count on all maps. They didn't reduce the spawn timings... that should be obvious on a play through.

* Strength Drain Elemental Removal Now works for Tower Targeting as well - in 7.30b, again, towers not being able to target elemental removed within the strength drain makes the change useless as it doesn't give any benefit to what it's meant to do (help APP)

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Again, I'm not arguing about specific balance changes. I'm just saying that if you immediately nerf enemies out the starting gate, it gives a pretty bad rep towards Trendy.

I agree. But I would say that they get a worse rep for releasing paid updates that break aspects of the game and REQUIRE nerfs. And this is not the first time they have done so. It is the third. Out of three.

Look back at the Djinn. You can't tell me we weren't trying hard enough and that is why survival and monster-fests were ruined when they first were added. Yet that is exactly what you are telling us now, with Sharken. Its not the first time this sentiment was expressed, and knowing Trendy, it won't be the last either.

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Your entitled to your long opinion and I posted a similar topic once Djinns came out. Then I got home from work and tried to play against them on a few maps and my opinion dramatically changed.

This time around i'm staying with the bandwagon. The concept of a tower being moved was broken to begin with unless it didn't effect walls, and if it didn't effect walls, what would be the point? In late wave Misty ogres have 25-30 million health and move incredibly fast. They can make it from their spawn to your wall in a matter of seconds regardless of ensares (and of course they ignore gas). This means that if a sharken moves a wall a player has maybe 3 seconds to find that wall, unsummon it, then resummon it at lvl 1 at the correct point. By that time another Sharken is either waiting or has moved another wall. Not to mention you now have a Sharken running around your base destroying things, like your crystal.

So if a mob is introduced that is completely game breaking, it's up to Trendy to not have the pride you mentioned above and to fix the bug. I'm not sure the beta test team looks for anything other than bugs to be fixed. The sharken arn't bugged, they are broken.


I never said criticism of the players was bad, and I didn't intend to say that nerfing enemies was always bad. Indeed, from what I've seen Sharken are a mess, but it still doesn't justify one-hour nerfs.

Good patches take time, including enemy balancing patches. Do any of you seriously think Trendy thought hard about these nerf percentages? Less than an hour of discussion doesn't tend to lead to balanced enemies, mostly just gimped ones.

I am in favor of Skarken nerfs. I'm not in favor of how quickly it was decided that they should be nerfed, or the percentages that they were nerfed by, because they were decided on and implemented less than an hour after their release.

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Again, I'm not arguing about specific balance changes. I'm just saying that if you immediately nerf enemies out the starting gate, it gives a pretty bad rep towards Trendy.


As opposed to leaving them in and making the game unplayable for most people?

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As opposed to leaving them in and making the game unplayable for most people?

I Assume he means leaving them in for more than an hour, and see if people can adapt their builds instead of going "OMG OP ENEMY FIX THIS TRENDY PLZ!"

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Somehow, what I think is going on here is the Beta team haven't been playing against the same version of Sharken players saw. We may be seeing the same version of Sharken the Beta team saw originally, and they were since balanced out to what is now being released - how else would such massive nerfs have been so ready to be implemented right from the get-go? Given their difficulty, that seems like something they had to balance out before hand, and the test environment code didn't make it into the build/production environment code.

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AMEN!! Tell it how it is! Nerfing Sharkens before even allowing enough time for people to come up with new strategies is a outrage. There could very well be a build that blows Sharkens out of the water and make otherwise unuseful towers useful but nerfing them so fast is nothing more then giving into the whiney players who don't want to have to try something different. Suck it up Trendy!

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I Assume he means leaving them in for more than an hour, and see if people can adapt their builds instead of going "OMG OP ENEMY FIX THIS TRENDY PLZ!"


Exactly, they should have given it AT LEAST a Day or two, in order to get a proper scope and also to allow the community to act like a community and actually come together with ideas of how best to adapt their builds or indeed how to adapt their play style. Problem, is, apparently there are far too many Silver Spoons in this community, who insist on calling the WAMBULANCE instead of actually trying to come up with ideas on how to tackle this new challenge presented to them. I dunno why Trendy is catering to these people, because once Diablo 3 comes out, they'll just go there because they can sell the shinies for real money legitimately...

Trendy do a good job by lending an ear to the community and taking on board their thoughts and opinions. But does that mean they should do so every single time? HELL NO. Especially when the new product and features have only been out for 2 hours, which might I add, isn't nearly enough time to gauge whether or not something needs tweaking (especially at the levels we see on 7.30b, those Sharken may as well not even exist they're so weak. Oh, lets have a mob that sits right in front of your defences for 6 seconds before doing anything remotely threatening, GREAT FREAKING IDEA!).

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I Assume he means leaving them in for more than an hour, and see if people can adapt their builds instead of going "OMG OP ENEMY FIX THIS TRENDY PLZ!"


This is exactly what I mean, thanks for summing it up so succinctly. The thing most people dont seem to get is that their anti spider+djinn builds obviously wont work- only anti spider, djinn AND sharken builds will. If the community still cant find a way to beat sharken after a few days of new builds, I'm all in favor of nerfing them! But I firmlu believe a community cannot adequately determine the balance of an enemy less than an hour after he is released to the general public.

Sure it does but in all aspects the nerfs have put it to a challenging level not a "there's no way for you to beat this level". It's obvious that they don't do enough testing on changes they make.

Take the survival change, they listened to us (great) and reduced mob count on all maps. They didn't reduce the spawn timings... that should be obvious on a play through.

* Strength Drain Elemental Removal Now works for Tower Targeting as well - in 7.30b, again, towers not being able to target elemental removed within the strength drain makes the change useless as it doesn't give any benefit to what it's meant to do (help APP)


Again, these changes are not the kind I am arguing against. I'm arguing against enemy balance changes. I'm all in favor of day 1 bugfixes, as those are most likely unintended bugs. Nerfing the sharken by a large percentage on many different stats is not a bug fix, its a balance change.

I agree. But I would say that they get a worse rep for releasing paid updates that break aspects of the game and REQUIRE nerfs. And this is not the first time they have done so. It is the third. Out of three.

Look back at the Djinn. You can't tell me we weren't trying hard enough and that is why survival and monster-fests were ruined when they first were added. Yet that is exactly what you are telling us now, with Sharken. Its not the first time this sentiment was expressed, and knowing Trendy, it won't be the last either.


I can see where you are coming from, but I personally think that Trendy bending over immediately and severely nerfing enemies every time the community whines will give them a worse reputation than releasing overpowered enemies on launch, and taking their time to nerf them with values that make sense. Just a matter of opinion I guess.

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Nope, I agree with the guys who think the initial Sharken release was a mistake. Trendy, recognised their monumental error only minutes after release, making the decision to drastically nerf the sharks. Why? Because me, and by the sounds of it a hell of a lot of players, will be damned if we're going to waste 3days trying to create a build to beat something thats so OP. I think the whole sharken concept is laughable to be honest - and trendy should never have published it. This makes me worry about the teaser trailer for part 4 with goblin airships that drop enemies behind your lines? Will that be throw into the game having only been beta tested by a room full of chimpanzes too?

I think the problems lie where Trendy has attempted to "evolve" DD away from the traditional and proven tower defense games... In an old school tower defense game, you had the ability to place down any defense in your armada, and as levels progressed more and more would be unlocked. You'd have to level up and boost defenses as waves went on to survive.

Trendy has delievered all that, plus we have to run around on the ground placing and repairing the defenses ourselves. But the way Trendy are looking to evolve the game frightens the hell out of me. What kind of tower defense game has enemies that move your defenses around on the map?!! I'm sorry but I think its a silly concept... The areas where they tweaked the good old core concepts of a tower defense game and added plenty of upgrades and collectables to boot, was executed with genius. But this latest sharken change just pushes the boundries too far for me.

A degree of racing around repairing and hoping your defenses will hold is good fun. The kind of chaos that sharkens will cause is just idiotic in my opinion. Its a completely un-needed rebalance of a game which had so much going for it. The age old proverb comes to mind... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Well, I'm afraid with Sharkens I think Trendy just broke it.

Sorry.

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I agree with OP that Trendy (who i absolutely adore, maybe because of this) is doing two things by making nerfs so quick:
A) I believe it gives the perception that they are very new at what they're doing
B) That they bow to the community

It's such an odd situation though, that it makes me wanna see an E! Hollywood special on behind the scenes@Trendy entertainment.

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God I'm glad trendy did an insta nerf. You may not care about the early difficulty of nightmare since you are past that point, but others, like myself, can understand the issue trying to jump into nightmare without great gear. I'm past that point, but I can remember how bad it was trying to jump into nightmare since insane does not prepare you for the difficulty change. The game should have a challenge, but it should also flow in difficulty and the sharken when they were released were a problem. Ironic that you say "make the complainers happy" when you are the complainer in your own thread; so should they cater to your complaining then?

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An insta-nerf basically means they didn't test it very thoroughly. Even with the nerf people are having to adapt their builds, so I'm fine with it.

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Look, I work five days out of seven, get home, have to do the obligatory day-to-day email management, maybe finances or cooking too. When I finally get some time to utilize my PC for what I payed it for (gaming), I don't want to waste those 2 hours of free time by pointlessly spending my time on an unenjoyable rage-inducing fest. (Which I payed for multiple times as well)

They should give people the option of playing with or without the new monsters for a month or so. There are bound to be plenty of players who will test the new content. Or they should at least show us clips of how the beta team dealt with it AND listen to their feedback when they say something is OP.

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If you really believe the nerf within 1 hour was due to customer feedback then I think that is a bit naive.

Think about it, the initial patch was over 1Gb, people had to download it, load up a match before they could judge anything and send feedback. A good judge of the impact would be to start up in a later wave which do take several minutes to setup and complete. 7.30b was out within 1 hour, which can only be deduced that the change came from their internal feedback but was just late in the distribution cycle.

Thread about the update started to pop after 7.30b was already out. So unless many regular players have the Devs direct email to send feedback, were on very fast internet connection, are very fast as setting up a later wave and complete it, are very keen at observing the new mob and suggest very specific adjustment (Notes show 5-6 tweaks!), were not affected by connection issue experienced with Steam at that time, etc. The nerf was not because of the community as you claim.

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If you really believe the nerf within 1 hour was due to customer feedback then I think that is a bit naive.

Think about it, the initial patch was over 1Gb, people had to download it, load up a match before they could judge anything and send feedback. A good judge of the impact would be to start up in a later wave which do take several minutes to setup and complete. 7.30b was out within 1 hour, which can only be deduced that the change came from their internal feedback but was just late in the distribution cycle.

Thread about the update started to pop after 7.30b was already out. So unless many regular players have the Devs direct email to send feedback, were on very fast internet connection, are very fast as setting up a later wave and complete it, are very keen at observing the new mob and suggest very specific adjustment (Notes show 5-6 tweaks!), were not affected by connection issue experienced with Steam at that time, etc. The nerf was not because of the community as you claim.


Except threads came out before 7.30b. I specifically saw them, might have trouble locating them since the forums are absolutely flooded with threads about them now but there were threads about Sharken being "OP" before the patch notes nerfing them went up on the forums.

Feedback also wouldn't have taken long at all for someone with a decent internet connection. Giving around 10-15 minutes to download, 5 minutes to boot up a map on nightmare survival and setting up a usual setup, and giving a minute or two for the Sharken to completely wreck their builds because they didn't want to change them, you've only gone through about twenty minutes max, after which the enraged players flood to the forums claiming that the new enemy is impossible and that Trendy should nerf the sharken in whatever way they can, just as long as they are no longer able to wreck their pre 7.30 builds as easily as they are. Trendy comes up with some arbitrary numbers and posts them on the forum in order to please the majority of enraged players, submits the patch to Valve (by the way, only the patch notes went up within an hour, my guess is they were submitted to Valve for updating the game sometime after as I didn't get the patch for around another half hour to 45 minutes), and the game gets updated due to consumer feedback. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think things happened a bit differently.

God I'm glad trendy did an insta nerf. You may not care about the early difficulty of nightmare since you are past that point, but others, like myself, can understand the issue trying to jump into nightmare without great gear. I'm past that point, but I can remember how bad it was trying to jump into nightmare since insane does not prepare you for the difficulty change. The game should have a challenge, but it should also flow in difficulty and the sharken when they were released were a problem. Ironic that you say "make the complainers happy" when you are the complainer in your own thread; so should they cater to your complaining then?


Um, I'm still stuck in the early part of nightmare, so don't assume I'm not please. As a matter of fact, to this day I still haven't beaten NM ES. I also specifically stated that I was, and still am having a difficult time progressing into nightmare.

And I never demanded Trendy cater to my complaints, I don't know where you got that from. They are more observations really, of how I see that Trendy's insta-nerfs are somewhat silly and don't lead to challenging, but not impossible enemies.

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You complained that they not listen to everyone that called for nerfs; therefore you were saying you wanted them to listen to you by default. Enough de-railing the conversation though. I agree that the nerf mainly came from both indev comments and from player feedback as Dummy mentioned and I support this because Trendy understands they must do the most good for the most amount of players. There are always going to be outliers that want way more challenge or way less challenge, but that challenge should come from "challenge maps" or optional content. While the sharken are an issue; it is difficulty disparity from insane to nightmare that is the bigger issue. Adding the sharken just makes players feel they were taken a step back when they were having feelings of progression. Finally I think they will balance it and make it challenging. Late waves of misty have you constantly watching your minimap (while solo) to manually detonate your gas traps. They also make spiders still seem powerful when they start raining down on you. So I think trendy is moving in the best direction. Nerfing the sharken for everyone while still making them annoying enough for those that just want to sit back and AFK.

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