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Would you mind taking a look at Apprentice please Trendy?


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Hi folks,

You're usually pretty good about keeping the game fresh and fun. Unfortunately I think maybe in all the haste of content packs and updates the poor apprentice has been a little neglected.

After a particularly rage-y evening last night playing my apprentice, I came to the forums to raise an issue about their hp. Being that this is an apprentice specific issue I thought the apprentice forum would be the best place to discuss it. After posting I took a look through for any hidden solutions or answers. Unfortunately what I found was a whole bunch of people with similar problems, such as the towers feeling much weaker than the squires. Realistically the tower balance is not for me to criticize, my gear isn't high enough to give valid feedback on that so I won't. But the next most prevalent issue, which I have had experience with, is survivability. I came to this forum as there really doesn't seem to be any responses over in the apprentice one, at least not from your Trendy folks.

The apprentice is the squishiest character I've seen in near any video game. Unless we include goombas from super mario. Their hp per point of player health is just utterly terrible and a squire and apprentice in identical gear will see a disparity of huuuuuuuuge proportions. At 74 is semi decent godly gear, no mythics the difference is already 5-6k of life, with the apprentice sitting on a measly 500-600hp and the squire on 5-6k. I understand the argument that the apprentice is ranged, but that means very very little when DE warriors come jumping over your defenses and chasing you down. They tend to just destroy the apprentice near instantly, making all of his towers deal 30% less for the round (on HC of course) and making the player sit out for very long and boring periods of time. It's not so much about balance, but about -fun-. This is just not fun, and buffing their health would be a way to make the character at least playable, even if they still aren't as strong as squires in towers. At the moment, they are squishier & weaker towers, which is just a "retire this char" scenario.


Finally, thanks for the game, its great. Just please have a little look at the apprentice as he's a charming fellow, just a little too squishy and non-versatile for the moment.

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Don't wish to purchase gear above what can be found. I am trying to take this char up through the game without being boosted or popping into someone else shop to up my gear.

Thanks for the tip. Got resists, and best gear you can find on Ramps/HallofCourt INHC wave 19-20.

It really shouldn't be a requirement to go hunt your gear from other people's shops. ~.~

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Best builder:Squire
Best DPS:Squire
Only assault runner:Squire
See where the problem is?

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Why do people keep complaining about these things, while you can play all classes at once?
A game with so many classes obviously is never going to be balanced around every class having the ability to solo all content. That's just a stupid thing to even want, since it takes all diversity out of the game.

Also, people who claim apprentices are nearly useless... you clearly haven't been using fireball towers in moraggo lately. A setup with 1 harpoon and 1 fireball tower completely wipes the floor with two harpoons in a lot of cases. :p

The only complaint here that is justified in my opinion, is the apprentice's hp. People who blurt out stuff such as " up your resist more" clearly haven't played the higher waves of new levels on NM, or mixed mode for that matter. Spiders and DEWs will kill you no matter what your HP is. At least if you want to dps in front of towers. If you stay behind them and right-click knockback bad stuff, you should be fine. Just be on the lookout for poison balls. They hurt.

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Best builder:Squire
Best DPS:Squire
Only assault runner:Squire
See where the problem is?

Best builder: Squire Walls, Aprentice towers, EV Beams, Huntress Traps, Monk Auras.
Best DPS: Whatever your gear is put on. Besides, that throne was usually tossed on Huntress in ages past.
Only Assault Runner: Thought that was Countess or Barbarian?

See where the problem with your logic is?

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Only Assault Runner: Thought that was Countess or Barbarian?


Call to arms tends to be a bit more effecient compared to blood rage. That, and circular slice isn't as usable as joust in my experience. The only place where it helps me, is when going for the second crystal in part 1 of the assault pack. It pretty much destroys everything in that area. But meh, the countess just runs through without a problem anyway.

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Best builder:Squire
Best DPS:Squire
See where the problem is?


You haven't played monk since they got buffed have you? I destroy squires for DPS.

OP- I have few issues surviving as an app, resits are key. Either that or build with your app and swap to a higher dmg class like monk.

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Best builder:Squire
Best DPS:Squire
Only assault runner:Squire
See where the problem is?


hmm...

obviously neglecting the monk, huntress and barb for DPS.

And the monk/huntress can both be used for assault

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There is no point to playing the Apprentice right now, unless you just want to do it for fun (i.e. you're not trying to progress as far as you can, etc). I stuck with the App for quite some time, but pushing harder into NMHC it just wasn't cutting it. I switched my gear over to a squire and things are just much, much easier now. Harpoons are greater than anything the Mage can offer right now, and you actually survive occasionally getting blindsided by a ninja when trying to repair a wall.

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The idea of Dungeon Defenders is to combine the abilities of ALL characters.

If you're playing just the Squire or just the Apprentice, for towers, then you're sorely limiting yourself.

Don't wish to purchase gear above what can be found. I am trying to take this char up through the game without being boosted or popping into someone else shop to up my gear.


Admirable, and my buddies and I play the same way. But just don't limit yourself to solely the Apprentice for towers.

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Why say a class is strong for towers if they're not playable to support those towers.

Build app and swap out = 30% less dmg on those towers.
Builld squire no swap = way better tower damage.

If the classes aren't even then wtf is the point in half of them? "You should swap" is a ridiculous reason.

My point is, I get WHY they have less hp, but the amount less is disproportionate to the advantage of the class. Ranged with towers so you get least hp is fine. But when the difference (in terrible gear) is already 5k for the same stats, and the apprentice has to sit under 1k life, its too much and not fun. Shame.

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Why do people keep complaining about these things, while you can play all classes at once?
A game with so many classes obviously is never going to be balanced around every class having the ability to solo all content. That's just a stupid thing to even want, since it takes all diversity out of the game.

Also, people who claim apprentices are nearly useless... you clearly haven't been using fireball towers in moraggo lately. A setup with 1 harpoon and 1 fireball tower completely wipes the floor with two harpoons in a lot of cases. :p

The only complaint here that is justified in my opinion, is the apprentice's hp. People who blurt out stuff such as " up your resist more" clearly haven't played the higher waves of new levels on NM, or mixed mode for that matter. Spiders and DEWs will kill you no matter what your HP is. At least if you want to dps in front of towers. If you stay behind them and right-click knockback bad stuff, you should be fine. Just be on the lookout for poison balls. They hurt.


Because you shouldn't have to play all the classes at once, but that really doesn't have anything to do with his complaint since there's no real reason to play the Apprentice at all when it comes to building towers. Hell, I only play mine when soloing since I can stand back and shoot stuff and get mana from my Genie to build up my defenses, and doing that isn't exactly risk free. The game has six classes, gender swaps don't count as other classes since they build the same towers, it is not unreasonable to expect to be able to play what class you want to play and actually be successful at maps. Using a single map as an example of where you can use Apprentice towers isn't exactly making a case for you.

edit: The Barbarian being an exception to expecting to win, that class is just bad for playing solo since it can't actually build anything.

The idea of Dungeon Defenders is to combine the abilities of ALL characters.

If you're playing just the Squire or just the Apprentice, for towers, then you're sorely limiting yourself.

Admirable, and my buddies and I play the same way. But just don't limit yourself to solely the Apprentice for towers.


Except if you use Apprentice towers at all you are generally hurting yourself since they are so far behind the Harpoon Turret that its not funny.

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I agree with OP. Leaving your apprentice in for the boost makes his towers decent, but he dies to high-end waves where a ninja pops in and insta-gibs his 70k hp, where the squire with 200k+ is just hurt some.

I'm all for a buff to his towers, though. I still just find them kinda weak for most situations unless you have incredible gear to put on him.

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Best builder: Squire Walls, Aprentice towers, EV Beams, Huntress Traps, Monk Auras.

Please tell me you're joking.

While I'm not going to list every single detail, as much of it is widely known already, I'll just go through the most prudent details.
Let's see;
Harpoons vs. Magic Missile
Harpoons: High damage per projectile, deals full damage with each projectile, pierces multiple enemies, higher HP, faster projectile speed, really long range, slower turning than Apprentice towers but not as bad as they used to be.
Magic Missile: Faster firing rate, single-target DPS, faster aiming/turning, slow projectile speed, misses faster moving targets because of slow projectile speed, lower HP.

Harpoons vs. Fireball
Harpoons: As listed above.
Fireball: Faster firing rate than Harpoon, splash damage, decent damage to anything caught in the center of the splash, slow projectile speed, inability to damage Fire monsters and requires back-up, lower HP than Harpoons, monsters not in the center of splash take reduced damage.

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resists are the biggest portion of survivability, but when enemies do base 20-30k damage (which is common in NM), you are still looking at a couple thousand damage, depending. a lot of people only have 70ish% resists when starting NM, a lot more still have less, which still leaves a DEW able to deal 6K damage per attack. and since they come in swarms, apprentices still die far too quickly.

its the same thing in insane, where they can easily deal in the arear of 6 or 7 thousand base damage. even at 90% resists that it still 600 or more damage, and when you have 2 or 3 on you, and you have an HP pool of about 1900, yeah. and thats before adding in elemental damage.

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I understand nightmare is focusing on more tower-based gameplay, but sitting back and hiding in your base is pretty boring after a while especially on longer maps. Giving players more HP doesn't exactly make them able to just go out and slaughter everything. I don't really see how it will hurt to gives players a bit more survivability.

I've got just under 90% armor resistance in nightmare, and golden DEWs can still just destroy me almost instantly in later waves.

I really hope a new DLC character has sticky fly paper to keeps these guys out of the safe areas....

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Please tell me you're joking.

While I'm not going to list every single detail, as much of it is widely known already, I'll just go through the most prudent details.
Let's see;
Harpoons vs. Magic Missile
Harpoons: High damage per projectile, deals full damage with each projectile, pierces multiple enemies, higher HP, faster projectile speed, really long range, slower turning than Apprentice towers but not as bad as they used to be.
Magic Missile: Faster firing rate, single-target DPS, faster aiming/turning, slow projectile speed, misses faster moving targets because of slow projectile speed, lower HP.

Harpoons vs. Fireball
Harpoons: As listed above.
Fireball: Faster firing rate than Harpoon, splash damage, decent damage to anything caught in the center of the splash, slow projectile speed, inability to damage Fire monsters and requires back-up, lower HP than Harpoons, monsters not in the center of splash take reduced damage.

Considering my build for Alchemy Lab relies on lightning towers (high level insane, I must admit, but even still) it doesn't just mean that Aprentice/Adept are garbage. I do agree that they are slightly underpowered, but then again if ya don't just throw harpoons at a problem, you learn other ways of doing it :V

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Best builder:Squire
Best DPS:Squire
Only assault runner:Squire
See where the problem is?


FALSE

Best builder:Squire, EV, App for FB and LT towers
Best DPS: Apprentice since it can deliver quite a lot of damage with 5 bullets, the monk very very very close to him.
Only assault runner:Squire well, that one is true

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FALSE

Best builder:Squire, EV, App for FB and LT towers
Best DPS: Apprentice since it can deliver quite a lot of damage with 5 bullets, the monk very very very close to him.
Only assault runner:Squire well, that one is true


I don't see why people think Squire is the only good assault runner.
I love destroying assault maps with my EV. Need to get a better gun though, as mine only currently does 1.2mill DPS.

Apprentice used to be my main character pre DLCs. Since then the group I run with use Countess for damage towers and EV for walls / buff beams with the odd trap or aura.

As for DPS, I wouldn't ever pick an apprentice for range, not when you can rock it out with an EV.
Charge up your beam and trololllolololol.

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This is for those people who don't want to spend real money on this game which will limit them.
Best builder: squire
Best dpser: Squire/huntress
Assault run: Squire

Again this is for people who dont want to buy barb dlc and we all know barb is number 1 dpser in the game right now.

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I agree with OP. Leaving your apprentice in for the boost makes his towers decent, but he dies to high-end waves where a ninja pops in and insta-gibs his 70k hp, where the squire with 200k+ is just hurt some.

I'm all for a buff to his towers, though. I still just find them kinda weak for most situations unless you have incredible gear to put on him.


You have nailed exactly my meaning sir.

The towers and such, they may be "under-powered" but that not really my biggest complaint. The reason they FEEL as bad as they do is because you're either swapping your apprentice out (30% less dmg) or your apprentice is dead (30% less damage). Harps are definitely super strong, but nerfing harpoons won't make apprentices more playable, because they're weakness is not just the very-slight-disadvantage of towers. The 30% of reduction makes the apprentice nonviable due to his weak survivability, you can tune the towers at a later date. Lets face it, apprentices go down faster than paris hilton at an orgy.

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There is NO logical reason in current situation for Apprentice to have lowest HP ratio.

Yes, it was OK when the game was released - before NM was implemented.

You say he is ranged DPS? No, not so much. He has to be close to actually do some DPS or even for Mana Bomb's optimal use. His DPS means melee distance! Building, upgrading and repairing means almost melee distance!

EVERY other class has abilities to reduce incoming damage! EVERY ONE.
Block. Clone. Invisibility. Heal. Aura lowering damage. Turtle Stance.

Except Apprentice (and Adept). Who also has the worst HP. And no traps\auras\walls to hide in\behind.

THAT WAS OK BEFORE NIGHTMARE BUT ITS NOT OK NOW.

What I suggest?
Alternatives:

1) give him some damage mitigation (mana shield? phase shift? astral walk?)
2) or give him Blink\Teleport ability (alt attack)
3) or let him repair\upgrade from ANY RANGE when Overcharge is on. (not so OP bc it drains mana and he has to get close to get mana)
4) or make towers prioritize enemies that target Apprentice. Starting from low-HP ones

He is WIZARD ffs! He should be smart! Going into melee range is not smart at all!

You made him low hp because he is Mage?
Ok, now make him smart because he is Mage!

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There is NO logical reason in current situation for Apprentice to have lowest HP ratio.
Yes, it was OK when the game was released - before NM was implemented.

You say he is ranged DPS? No, not so much. He has to be close to actually do some DPS or even for Mana Bomb's optimal use.

EVERY other class has abilities to reduce incoming damage! EVERY ONE.
Block. Clone. Invisibility. Heal. Aura lowering damage. Turtle Stance.

Except Apprentice. Who also has the worst HP. And no traps\auras\walls to hide in\behind.

THAT WAS OK BEFORE NIGHTMARE BUT ITS NOT OK NOW.

What I suggest?
Alternatives:

1) give him some damage mitigation (mana shield? phase shift? astral walk?)
2) or give him Blink\Teleport ability (alt attack)
3) or let him repair\upgrade from ANY RANGE when Overcharge is on. (not sso OP bc it drains mana and he has to get close to get mana)
4) or make towers prioritize enemies that target Apprentice. Starting from low-HP ones

He is WIZARD ffs! He should be smart! Going into melee is not smart at all!



3/. Would be a bit unfair to the adept.

Other than that, shrug I don't mind. A better hp scaling ratio alone would be nice. If they gave that + a mitigation ability of some kind it'd be fantastic. The blink idea is cool, though I think mana shield would be more effective.

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Actually I'm sure that Adept should receive the same buffs that Apprentice needs. Her hip-dance is not enough to stop those DEWs.

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