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Small changes to mage towers please.


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I think it's pretty funny that both the squire and the apprentice both have 8 DU defenses that are pretty much useless.

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I have to address the comments about piercing DSTs just being another harpoon. The key is to ensure the damage they Deal is excessive against trash mobs and its fire rate is set to give it better DPS on big targets than harpoons but the huge wasted damage + low RoF makes it ineffective against masses of weak mobs.

I will retun to my comment about damage and RoF changes not being a good idea.

Say you double the damage, that might make them effective at taking down 1 or 2 ogres but when half a dozen come knocking at your walls the harpoon will still outclass them. If you multiply the damage by 10 or 15 you might be able to deal with a big group of ogres nicely but if you then go to a map or path with few ogres or well spaced ogres it will trivialize the ogres by easily destroying them, and have a similar effect on bosses. With the possible exception of one shotting Djinn in the second case this damage buff has little affect on the DST being worthless as a general enemy clearance.

If you go the other way and buff the RoF to achieve similar DPS numbers you are making a big magic missile and turing the DST into a clearance tower and not a specialized one.

Either way to be effective at dealing with any ground based threat except spiders you need to be able to hit multiple enemies in NM so If you want it to be useful in ogre clearance that is what it needs,. You then keep its RoF low and damage excessive and it can't compete with Harpoons for gerneral mob clearance but its range, projectile speed and wall pierce give it value in cleaning up still.

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I have to address the comments about piercing DSTs just being another harpoon. The key is to ensure the damage they Deal is excessive against trash mobs and its fire rate is set to give it better DPS on big targets than harpoons but the huge wasted damage + low RoF makes it ineffective against masses of weak mobs.

I will retun to my comment about damage and RoF changes not being a good idea.

Say you double the damage, that might make them effective at taking down 1 or 2 ogres but when half a dozen come knocking at your walls the harpoon will still outclass them. If you multiply the damage by 10 or 15 you might be able to deal with a big group of ogres nicely but if you then go to a map or path with few ogres or well spaced ogres it will trivialize the ogres by easily destroying them, and have a similar effect on bosses. With the possible exception of one shotting Djinn in the second case this damage buff has little affect on the DST being worthless as a general enemy clearance.

If you go the other way and buff the RoF to achieve similar DPS numbers you are making a big magic missile and turing the DST into a clearance tower and not a specialized one.

Either way to be effective at dealing with any ground based threat except spiders you need to be able to hit multiple enemies in NM so If you want it to be useful in ogre clearance that is what it needs,. You then keep its RoF low and damage excessive and it can't compete with Harpoons for gerneral mob clearance but its range, projectile speed and wall pierce give it value in cleaning up still.


So, again, give piercing to MM.

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If DST prioritized and interrupted djinn desummoning, it would immediately because very useful without any other buffs.

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If DST has an aoe damage like can hit multiple targets, that would be nice.
Or has an additional damage over time damage that effects all enemies around the target that is being attacked.

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The DST could be improved by making it charge up damage until it has enough damage to kill the target in one hit (based on the current HP of the target) and only then shoot. The charge rate could be really high like 5x the DPS of a harpoon based on tower damage and attack speed, but there could also be a cool down based on attack speed that would be roughly the current rate of fire. This would make it really effective against high HP targets as the cool down time would be more than offset by the longer charging time to kill the target, but for low HP targets the small charge time might only be a fraction of the cool down time so the DPS would be much lower. This would also leave the tower in pretty much the same role it's supposed to be in and makes it live up to it's name properly as EVERY shot it fires would result in a kill making it a VERY deadly tower indeed.

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To \/4n!114 ][c3: The fact is mage towers can't handle ogres I use my best armor and tested it with the same armor i did on my squire with no wep and a +300 stat pet (1500/2300/500/1700) and the everytime squire killed ogres before the wall and every time mage towers failed to kill it before the wall and the base got hurt. -This was on survial magus wave 10-

Edit: To the guy who said BB Tower (8 DU cost) is not usful.....Its a great tower and I use it all the time to get to +20 on survial mix NMHC.

Edit: I'm dumb don't pay me mind....just woke up, but yes slice'N'Dice needs a lil somthing...but thats for a dif forum post.

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To \/4n!114 ]Edit: To the guy who said BB Tower (8 DU cost) is not usful.....Its a great tower and I use it all the time to get to +20 on survial mix NMHC.


BB is 7 DU, I'm pretty sure he meant the slice 'n' dice tower which is 8DU and useless since the bouncer performs better for less and fills the same role so squires don't even need it.

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Time to do a round up of big probs.

MM Tower: Proj moves way too slow and can't keep mobs back at all or kill air mobs good.

Fireball Tower: A diffrent AoE then Harpoon, but less dmg and its a fire attack...
^ Edit: Also moves alot slower then a harpoon.

Lighting Tower: Works as is, but alot of people want this to have somthing that makes it "cool" or small buff

DST: Does not fill its role at all and is a joke....Needs large dmg buff and able to target ogres first to keep to its role.

Magic Blockade: Does its job for 1 DU, but alot of people want this wall to be a.....wall not some spider Agro joke.
^ Edit: Its power to take off ele proc is over shadowed by its power to die before its usful.

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The DST could be improved by making it charge up damage until it has enough damage to kill the target in one hit (based on the current HP of the target) and only then shoot. The charge rate could be really high like 5x the DPS of a harpoon based on tower damage and attack speed, but there could also be a cool down based on attack speed that would be roughly the current rate of fire. This would make it really effective against high HP targets as the cool down time would be more than offset by the longer charging time to kill the target, but for low HP targets the small charge time might only be a fraction of the cool down time so the DPS would be much lower. This would also leave the tower in pretty much the same role it's supposed to be in and makes it live up to it's name properly as EVERY shot it fires would result in a kill making it a VERY deadly tower indeed.


Interesting idea, but i have an idea along similar lines.

Since they are called "Deadly Strike Towers" why not buff the deadly part of it? We are talking about the capabilities and viability of taking out high HP targets (Djinns and Ogres) why not give them a cumulative damage increase against the individual target that gets repeatedly hit by a DST? Ogres/Djinns become more vulnerable with repeated DST strikes.

Say,
1 hit - 100% damage
2nd hit - 120% damage bonus
3rd hit - 140% damage bonus
4th hit - 160% damage bonus

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My Ideas:

MM - Homing so it doesn't miss nearly as much, small aoe (possibly with damage, but not much), that removes magic immunity. This will let you change the niche for Magic Blockades.

Fireball - Larger Effective splash. Maybe this is a Radius/AoE (1100 TRad) problem, but the radius on the explosions seems to be so small and it drops off so quick from the maximum at the point of impact. If it hits an early ogre for 20k it should take out several goblins on impact, this may be even more subjective because of the different hitbox sizes for mobs, ie an ogre hit in the chest will produce more damage on nearby orcs than nearby goblins because of how high the fireball hit.

Lightning Tower - This one needs to be able to use all of its bounces regardless of the number of mobs, well minimum 2. The lightning should be able to loop back on a mob and hit it for additional damage to prevent the loss of potential dps. Even if you were to increase the number of uses per loop back, it would still be worth more with some sort of ability to backtrack on it's own.

Example: Lightning tower can jump 50 times, 4 mobs come down the pipe in range of each other.

First pass 4 jumps, second pass 8 jumps, third pass 16 jumps, still only used 28 jumps, it would still be able to jump back to 3 of the mobs.

This would depend on if it were programmed to do, 1234321234 or 123443211234. The above is an example of the latter.

This would make it stronger on larger mobs, but shouldn't make it overpowered on anything like 2 ogres where it would basically be doing 4-5 times the damage on those two vs what it would do to several small mobs. Makes it more versatile.

DST - Limited projectile jumping, 2-5 times. Starting from closest, jumps from first 2-5 highest health mobs. Maybe too similar to Lightning. Slow it down even more though if this were implemented. Prevents shots from being "wasted" on goblins.

MB - MBs are so thin, allow them to be "stacked" to make it thicker increasing the amount of damage it can take. Similar to EV walls starting at 2 to 5, let MBs stack from 1-3, not increasing the amount of area it covers, just the amount of health it has. This could be a +/- feature instead of trying to avoid stacking when you don't want it. Raise the starting health by a small amount, or add in the MM purge and raise it by a larger amount and remove the magic debuff purge.

Just my ideas. Some weren't mentioned previously so maybe no one thought about them.

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Remember the fireball tower is only 5du vs Harpoon at 6du and with 2.4k stats it does match the harpoons single target dps, the issue is because the fireball shoots faster, a Series EV Buff beam makes the harpoon do more, "Piercing vs Aoe" /shrug, the Main issue is fire immune mobs/spiders/ninjas/ogres/Djinn that require an extra 3du darkness trap.

2x Magic Missile(6du) does more dps than a harpoon(same 6du), but again rate of fire issues in the buff beam make the harpoon way better, along with its lane clearing Multiple Ogre piercing godlyness, higher hp and massive range.

From a 100% cosmetic point of View I would like to see the damage of fireballs and Magic missiles increased 300% along with a Rate of fire nerf of 300% so they do the same dps, but with less spam and less Buff beam dps scaling issues. (same goes for harpoon and Ball tower imo)

you could make the "Deadly Striker Tower" stun ANYTHING it hits for 3 seconds, this would stop Djinn's unsummon beam, it would also stun high dps Ogres, and anything it doesn't kill outright will be stunned.
it also needs a fix on the projectile so that at 2.4k range it doesn't despawn at 60 range before hitting the mob and keep firing at things out of range.
or reduce it to 5du!
or Triple its damage!
or make it fire 360!!

I think both fireball and magic missiles need a damage buff, perhaps 30% along with a full 180 fire arc and faster projectile speed.
or simply drop the DU to 2 for missiles and 4 for fireballs and IMO its ballanced(then 3 MM match 1 harpoon and 3 fireballs match 2 harpoons)!!

Lightning tower is great for killing Ninjas, Spiders, Little mobs and I am pretty much happy with it but it does doesn't deliver enough bang for 7du to use realistically on any Nightmare map, perhaps give it a Second line of sight lightningbolt nuke, or allow the damage to ramp up the longer it channels on a target.
so it hits an ogre for 2000 dps for the first 10 seconds, then 3000 dps for 10, then 6000, then 12000 etc (bit of a boss killer tho)

Magic blockade is fine for 1DU, but perhaps have them share 50% of there hitpoints for endgame when placed next to each other, so 1 Blockade 3000 hp, 2 blockades both share 4500 hp, 3 blockades share 6000??


And while we are Whining about what we want changed!

-Make Ethereal Spike Trap deal 300% more damage and stun Djinn??
-Make Monk healing Aura also heal towers for 50% of the amount it heals
-Make Strength drain aura prevent channeling/casting
-Make Enrage aura in some way usable, aka Immune to Djinn
-Make Slice'N'Dice Immune to Spider webs and Deal 100% more damage as Poison Elemental.
-Tone down the totally BLINDING effect of fire trap and Increase the dps by 50% in NM
-Increase Monk electric aura dmg by 50% in NM
-Drop spike blockades to 2DU and Bouncer blockades to 3du
-Make the Barbarian healing also heal nearby players and towers
-Make the barbarian..... do meaningfull dps and not get toally outclassed by the squires bloodrage and Cleave in the same gear!
-Add some way of targeting a buff beam when its on 3 traps 2 auras a wall and a turret!


WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU FOR 5

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DST is meant to be the bird killer. It has priority targeting to flying mobs. With nearly 3000 damage on an app, the DST buff beamed cannot keep up with a bird spawn wave 30+ moraggo because it lacks the damage. on top of that, the tower has such low HP it is in danger of getting rolled by ogre balls if you don't constantly repair it.

No matter how you look at it, its broken. Removed them from my moraggo build because they suck in the high waves.

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Please keep this about mage towers and leave other update ideas to their forums.

Edit: You need to keep up with patch notes "* Buffed Monk Electric Aura by 50% in Nightmare" but back to thinking of ways to fix mage towers.

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I really love the ideas. I did a lot of testing of squire towers vs apprentice towers using the same setup at deeper well. Both managed to reach wave 15 using the same gears with 10-80 stat difference on weapons. Apprentice could'nt keep up with the ogres and that's a major problem. Used guardians, buff beam, guardian and buff beam together and still fails.

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The DST could be improved by making it charge up damage until it has enough damage to kill the target in one hit (based on the current HP of the target) and only then shoot. The charge rate could be really high like 5x the DPS of a harpoon based on tower damage and attack speed, but there could also be a cool down based on attack speed that would be roughly the current rate of fire. This would make it really effective against high HP targets as the cool down time would be more than offset by the longer charging time to kill the target, but for low HP targets the small charge time might only be a fraction of the cool down time so the DPS would be much lower. This would also leave the tower in pretty much the same role it's supposed to be in and makes it live up to it's name properly as EVERY shot it fires would result in a kill making it a VERY deadly tower indeed.


Hrm, that sounds like a good idea, it would definitely need to prioritize Djinns and Ogres first and switch to those if its currently charging to attack something else. Charge speed would have to scale well to be of any use when you are facing a rush of ogres though. Also if the tower is charging up and the target dies before it fires, it needs to fire at something else with that charge / changer targets and continue charging.

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I've been thinking of different ideas for the DST and one of them would be similar to SC2's protoss void ray if anyone's familiar with that. Basically, make the DST fire a beam (think EV proton beam) that scales up in damage the longer it's fired and pierces the target. The beam stops and is reset to its initial damage whenever it kills it's primary target and it possibly has a short CD before it can fire again.

This would give it an edge over the harpoon vs high health targets as the damage while targeting an ogre would ramp up to do say 2X the DPS a harpoon would do, and makes it useful against trash while not quite as powerful as a harpoon when it can't build up high enough dps. It would make the tower very interesting in late waves as it kind of scales with how much hp the mobs have.

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FB splash is not as good when compared to harps pierce, mainly b/c it attenuates too fast (ie. the damage drop compared to range happens too quick).

What if it was changed to be like the mages secondary, which dosent attenuate with distance. The range of this would have to be played with, but it would even up the harp vs. FB in NM

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I have a feeling that MM towers as they are are quite sufficient for their DU usage, I have a feeling that adding a homing code to projectiles wont make them any more accurate though a projectile speed buff would be nice.

Fireball towers need to be buffed, currently they are only a minor improvement in dps per DU cost to harpoons but they lack the vital peirce factor in favor of a small splash. Secondly they are ELEMENTAL damage so they should actually be doing more damage than physical towers// however in light of the new sharken mob being able to properly damage them would be good enough (provided there isnt an ogre in the way soaking up all the damage before its too late)

DSTs ...hmm yea personally id like to see these be given stronger air targeting prefference and an anti air bonus to offset some of the DU cost on survival maps (it is a great anti air tower when its not distracted by ground mobs) EDIT: add high projectile knockback (makes sense)
EDIT 2: Targeting ogres and dijin over wyverns ruins ANY anti air use early wave

and lightning towers ..pretty strong as is but insanely hard to keep focused on a lane (possibly reduce startup time, increase activation range and reduce time active) it is nice for clearing out trash mobs when using non piercing towers like fireball but its 7 DU and gets distracted off lane for far too long

anyways thats my input on things mage towers are still viable they just need tweaks since they cant pierce like harps can

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Maybe give the DST a stacking debuff which increases damage taken on the target.

It probably may still be useless in survival, because for the most part, the quantities are the greater problem. Making the DST piercing may solve the problem, but it wouldn't be a unique tower anymore. Making the projectiles explode on contact would probably move it too close to the fireball tower in it's role.

There are a few other ideas that came to my mind:

Make the projectiles split on hit, damaging additional nearby targets for lower damage.

Make the projectiles emit a "shockwave" while they travel to a high-hp-target, damaging or influencing mobs in a cylinder shape.

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Hrm, that sounds like a good idea, it would definitely need to prioritize Djinns and Ogres first and switch to those if its currently charging to attack something else. Charge speed would have to scale well to be of any use when you are facing a rush of ogres though. Also if the tower is charging up and the target dies before it fires, it needs to fire at something else with that charge / changer targets and continue charging.


That's pretty much how I had figured it would need to work. Though it would probably only need to change target if another DST killed it as other towers would at some point lower the HP of the mob below the charged damage allowing the DST to fire before the mob would die to the other towers. I figure it would need to charge damage at about 5 times the rate that harpoons deal damage, this would offset the higher DU and cool down after about a second or 2 of charging and gets progressively better very quickly. At that rate it'll probably be about 4 times better than a harpoon for single ogres and should be at least on par for 4 or so ogres though more than 4 ogres and harpoons could still be better for long narrow areas where they can reliably hit all 4+ ogres.

I think that would make things nice and balanced too as it becomes a situational choice, DST will generally be much better for dealing with ogres as it should due to a higher DU cost but sometimes harpoons may be the better option, and while the DST would be much better at dealing with the ogres/djinn it would be balanced out by being even worse than it is now for dealing with small fries, whereas the harpoon is pretty good at both. The other great thing is that because this change would make the DST so good for dealing with the high HP mobs it will have the side effect of making the lightning tower more viable as it won't need to deal good DPS to the ogres/djinn as the DST will make up for it and the lightning tower can be used just for taking out the weaker mobs which is what it's good at.

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Looking at all the post now and looks like I got all the ideas so far. Now I just need a Dev to take some time to come look at this post.

I'll be working on finding out what to take off tho atm the mm pen is kinda high on the take off list.

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EDIT 2: Targeting ogres and dijin over wyverns ruins ANY anti air use early wave


Indeed that may be the case but if the mm turret has its ideas added it can become the new anti air while DST can focus on what it was made for high hp targets and long range. But I will let the dev go about it how he sees the turrets working. (will add wyverns to the idea note)

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To \/4n!114 ][c3: The fact is mage towers can't handle ogres I use my best armor and tested it with the same armor i did on my squire with no wep and a +300 stat pet (1500/2300/500/1700) and the everytime squire killed ogres before the wall and every time mage towers failed to kill it before the wall and the base got hurt. -This was on survial magus wave 10-


4 MM towers will put out more single target damage than 2 harpoon towers, thats just numbers. 900 to speed and damage on a squire towers will put you in the neighborhood of .3 attack speed and 13k damage base in NM. 2 of them would be able to do about 87k DPS to a single target. for an app you will have about .08 attack speed and 4100 damage or so. for the same DU, you would get about 205k DPS on a single target. single target, the app far excels.

problem is, absolutely nothing in this game benefits from what you can do to a single target, so the squire towers will always be better because when those ogre trains come knocking, you have to have something that can hit all of them at once and keep their attention, otherwise, yes, they will walk right through your walls. even for the smaller things this is true. if its a choice between a 6 DU unit that will far overkill 40% of whatever the game is throwing at you, but also over kill 6 or 7 or his friends per shot, you best believe im going to use that unit instead of 2 3 DU units that will have to use 2 or 3 shots to kill a single target one at a time.

which is why it is much more beneficial to use a proximity mine over a magic missile tower. they cost the same DU, but the proximity mine is going to hit god knows how many enemies for as much as the magic missile tower will, to 10 or more times what the magic missile tower will (buffed by a 900 damage buff beam it can push a similar stated proximity close to 90k damage).

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IMO the Magic Missile towers are way too unreliable, the Magic Blockade are way to fragile (and sometimes they refuse to remove the elemental immunity) and the Deadly Striker/Lightning Towers cost too much DU - however, they are still vastly better than Slice n Dice or Ethereal Strike Trap.

Fireball Towers are pretty much the bad version of Harpoon Towers, not much point in em.

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