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Fixed bug that was erroneously giving Squire Tower 60% extra damage in Nightmare?

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This NERF business doesn't seem well thought out or tested.
My group has been trying to get going in nightmare survival but it feels like
the rug has continually been ripped out from under us with the last few patches.
How are we supposed to progress and get the good gear if we can't run the survival game where it drops.
Provide some stability and consistency that we can rely on.

Buff the apprentice, restore the squire, restore our faith.


I agree completely. I dont know about you guys but for me the game is unplayable because the towers just got nerfed so badly. I dont see how NMHC survival is possible anymore and this is coming from someone with full trans armor... Not really sure what to do. I cant exactly farm mana like i use to and i cant attempt to get better gear from late survival waves.

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Basically what I see is squire towers that were doing 105k damage last night are now doing 75k tonight(~1200/1900/900/1300 builder, not insanely good, not bad), which I suppose would be tolerable, to "make survival more challenging" as someone else said already, if it weren't for the fact that mobs are still getting stuck where they can't be hit, harpoons are apparently hitting them, but for 0 dmg(goblins in gas traps) and then won't refocus until said mob dies, reflected damage is reflecting back into walls (yes, I still have it happen on nearly any map I use reflect walls on even though it was "fixed"), and interupting Djinn casting through hero damage is only moderately effective at best. It seems to me that shoddy development and testing(complete lack there of is how that reads)is doing a fine job of making things remarkably more difficult than they should be.

My only other post here defended the addition of Djinn in the interest of making things more challenging, but the things that have been happening since that post(many of which were listed above) make me regret posting it. Now, instead of having a tower class that had a clear advantage over another, a fact that caused myself and many others to reroll, has merely become two classes that are equally inept at what they do. Inept might be a bit strong, but severely hampered compared to just 24 hours ago, and quite honestly, I'm tired of retooling and "adapting" and adjusting my builds every week or two because someone got tired of throwing the nerf football around the office and decided to dig in and change something to "fix a bug" that they've known about for months.

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I understand why this happened. With Series EV even Mix Mode Survival was becoming easy for end game players. Now it will be a challenge again.

However if you do not have end game gear it is going to really suck. I would hate to be some just picking up DD today.

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I'm tired of retooling and "adapting" and adjusting my builds every week or two because someone got tired of throwing the nerf football around the office and decided to dig in and change something to "fix a bug" that they've known about for months.


Yeah. I've also just managed to break into the easier maps on NMHC. And now I'm going to have to put several hundred points into tower damage if I just want to get to the point that I was already at this morning.

Adding enemies or changing spawns is one thing (if the ywant to make it more challenging) but when you take damage away like this it just makes the players feel cheated.

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The game is seriously broken. Was just doing an OMF run with a buddy, and we failed on wave 14 because we couldn't out-repair ogre damage even with nearly 1k in casting. Also note he has 2.7k tower damage, you'd think Ogres would die reasonably quickly so the repair speed wouldn't hurt that much. How are people just trying to get their first remotely decent Myth set supposed to progress if players with Trans sets can barely keep up? Also where are people supposed to find the gear to complete OMF or get deep into survival if they can't beat OMF or get deep into survival already? How many players are going to turn to paypal shops / hacking gear just so they can play the damn game like they did 2 days ago? Yes I'm aware they're going to 'fix' repair speed, but did nobody test this in an actual game before it went live?

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ya no, i use apprentice over squire in almost all situations my stats are around 600-700 and i am able to do most maps with a pure apprentice build


Nobody cares about campaign mode, you can do those maps in a coma. Try doing a survival where ogres have more hp than the bosses you fight and you get 4 of them at a wall at a time.

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Nobody cares about campaign mode, you can do those maps in a coma. Try doing a survival where ogres have more hp than the bosses you fight and you get 4 of them at a wall at a time.


thats funny because most experienced players I've seen say ogres arent problem at all but the waves of DEW and djin summoned dews certainly are

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thats funny because most experienced players I've seen say ogres arent problem at all but the waves of DEW and djin summoned dews certainly are

That's the case with Mix Mode. Ninjas are far more insignificant on NM HC.

That said.. these changes were pretty ridiculous. I was just about to get a few rl friends to start playing, but I'm gonna tell them not to buy the game unless Trendy changes stuff.

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Well. I had been trying to get into just pre wave 20 survival for the past month. It has been fun, and I have been enjoying EV. But now I don't really care anymore. This is not balancing the game. You don't throw 30+% nerfs around like that. I can understand wanting to fix the bug, but that has got to come at a price (Lowering mob health for instance).

I cannot progress to a point where I am able to get new gear. I barely could before, but now I simply can't. So I am just not going to bother. I'll most likely pick the game up again after shards has been released, if for nothing else just to see if it is playable by then.

God I hate this right now, because I usually don't react this way, but this has just been going on for so long that I can't stand it anymore:(

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Yeah by no means am I defending the patch. I actually haven't even played since I saw it download.

I came on here to check out the changes and got sad since I put everything I have into my squire and I was just starting to progress in nightmare. Almost finished the entire campaign in nmhc so I'm not even that far into it. Got the game a couple weeks ago, can only survive into wave 16 or 17 in nmhc on an easier map like magus or something. At about 1000/1100/380/630 tower stats but no Idea how I'm going to find anything better now.

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Thought I'd provide some numbers and how the "nerf" affected me in my quest through survival Misty/Moraggo.

First I will just point out that my comparison is based upon the fact that I use Tower Buff Beams and Huntress Guardian to boost most of my units.

(Note: these numbers are WITH both Tower Buff Beams and Apprentice guardian boosting the tower, will talk more about that later)
My stats are as of now: 1024/2302/768/1528

Before patch:
Harpoon damage: 174k~ each shot
Attack Speed 0.07
DPS: 2.485 million

After patch
Harpoon damage: 115k~ each shot
Attack speed: 0.07
DPS: 1.642 million

The reason I provided the numbers given after the harpoons are boosted is because in practice I 99% of my harpoons are boosted with both Tower Buff Beams and Huntress Guardian when an ogre is nearby, thusly making the comparison with more realistic.

In practice this nerf has caused my Harpoons to do about 34 percent less damage than they did before. In terms of killing a late wave ogre with about 28 million HP it would take about 11 seconds for one buffed Harpoon Turret to kill that single ogre. Post patch this time has been increased to 17.5 seconds.

I will further investigate how this nerf has affected me once I've got the chance to test out the more challenging content such as Mix Mode Misty and Morrago survival. I'm currently on wave 20 Misty Survival and has not noticed any increase in difficulty, that being said, I could pretty much afk through this before so it's not that surprising. Will update post when I'm done

However, what I think will happen on Mix mode and on more difficult maps is that my harpoons will have to spend more time killing the ogres, which in effect would increase the threat level of creatures with generally less hp as they will pass behind the ogre and perhaps reach the wall, mostly ninjas if I'll have to guess, but also spiders and djinns that doesn't die of traps all that fast.

Inputs whether this "nerf" was justified and how it will affect newer players and players with lower quality gear than I have, I leave up to you to discuss and provide evidence of since I can't really give an unbiased statement.

Will update post as I've tried Mix Mode and Moraggo.

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This here above proves once again Trendy only cares about the already uber-geared people, with 2000+ stats they don't notice a difference, too bad for the other 99% players.

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This here above proves once again Trendy only cares about the already uber-geared people, with 2000+ stats they don't notice a difference, too bad for the other 99% players.

You're out of your damn mind if you think high-end players don't care. I have 3,365 tower damage on my Countess in her trans set and her harpoons went from 301k to 188k (app guarded). They hit for less now 3-star'd than they did at level 1 prior.

The time that it took me to get this gear was completely not worth the 15-20k per hit extra mine will shoot over someone with 2,600 damage. I honestly feel completely trolled by Trendy here.

I completely understand and sympathize that getting high-end gear is significantly harder now, but realize that this patch wasn't good for anyone looking to progress further in endgame. I don't see Moraggo Mix Mode being beatable with the current patch. It was already overtuned on higher waves for current gear and now it's just absurd.

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In practice this nerf has caused my Harpoons to do about 34 percent less damage than they did before. In terms of killing a late wave ogre with about 28 million HP it would take about 11 seconds for one buffed Harpoon Turret to kill that single ogre. Post patch this time has been increased to 17.5 seconds.

I don't know about mix mode, but in regular misty, I'm seeing 40% (ish) less ogres as advertised. So 55% greater kill time, but 40% less of them. And walls are actually easy to repair now. Not great. But not so terrible.

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@Billywob

You do know that the tooltips are incorrect as **** right?
when the tooltip says that your tower is firing every 0.07 seconds it's firing at like every 0,11

for example a deadly striker turret (mine) supposedly shoots every 0.80 seconds however in reality it shoots every 1.0 - 1.1 second. when I boost it with an huntress guardian it should be firing every 0.46 but in reality it fires a bullet every 0.7 - 0.8 seconds.

I think it's even slower but heck you get the point.

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@Billywob

You do know that the tooltips are incorrect as **** right?
when the tooltip says that your tower is firing every 0.07 seconds it's firing at like every 0,11

for example a deadly striker turret (mine) supposedly shoots every 0.80 seconds however in reality it shoots every 1.1 - 1.2 second. when I boost it with an huntress guardian it should be firing every 0.46 but in reality it fires a bullet every 0.7 - 0.8 seconds.

DST is capped at 0.5. And it's not firing as you say. Or if it is, that's your unique issue. I just tested with my stop watch. Seems fine.

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in regular misty, I'm seeing 40% (ish) less ogres as advertised. So 55% greater kill time, but 40% less of them.

I did a quick solo run just for the heck of it earlier, and the change did not make it to every wave. QA at its finest. Most waves, but definitely not all. Wave 10 solo had 16 ogres and wave 11 had 12 ogres. I'd report it as a bug, but it'd honestly never get looked at, so not much point.

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I completely understand and sympathize that getting high-end gear is significantly harder now, but realize that this patch wasn't good for anyone looking to progress further in endgame. I don't see Moraggo Mix Mode being beatable with the current patch. It was already overtuned on higher waves for current gear and now it's just absurd.


The problem here is that this (the very end game gear) might be the sole area where people who state "NM should be Hard" may be correct. Unfortunately, what percentage of the community does this effect? 5-10% at most?

The designers imho should be catering to the majority of the people. The way to fix a broken progression for newer (and less geared) players should not be to make an incredibly difficult progression almost impossible.

Seriously, how many people thought to try running Endless Spires NM before reading the forums or hearing about that from someone else? Even the current progression people state doesn't help newer players. The ogre nerf only effects survival, which is something that they can't get too in the first place, and has thus been made much harder (even when piercing and repair speed are added back in). The ogres in Mistymire campaign will still exist in the same quantity as before (and let's not mention the boss now). And has the UMF & OMF ogre count been decreased?

Now, I'm not trying to say that end-gamers haven't also been affected, but making it harder for them doesn't cause a split in the community. All that would happen is that other players would catch up sooner or later, and everyone would be equal, but unable to progress further in the game. Each patch Trendy puts out though seems to be catered towards the whims of end-gamers who want a more difficult game, but makes it harder for the majority of the community to even dream of getting the ability to play NM. Remember, when you state that you have low to mid level gear of 1000/1000/1000/1000, the newer player most likely sees you as stating that you have gear of stats 9999/9999/9999/9999. They're probably barely getting by with stats all below 500. I know this would upset too many people, but imagine if TE did an item wipe as well as locked all the survival modes, so you had to rebeat all the levels again on NM. How far could the community trully progress?

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I just want to chime in here and thank you all for keeping this an actual discussion, makes my life a whole lot easier ;)

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I highly doubt it was a "Bug". If it truly was a bug, a bug of this magnitude would have been caught weeks ago by the beta team or by TE if they actually play the game.

That aside, i really wish they would have simply buffed all of the other classes, for it seemed for once, the squire tower class was the most balanced.

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This is it for me.. Atleast untill they actually fix their game.. I've been progressing into NM over the past 4 weeks, and the game was suddenly fun to play again.. Then came the completely unbalanced Djinns, which felt like they hadn't been tested out before being added at all.. Eventually they got nerfed and I learned how to deal with them.. But this is ridiculous.. People have been complaining for months about how terrible the Apprentice is when it comes to end game, and now you decided to take the Squire down to that level as well? Without even testing it?

When you "fix" a bug, you shouldent have to reduce the number of ogres by 40%, or having to fix repair cause you screwed that up aswell.. If it was just a bug, and you had to remove a multiplier from the Squire, then things should be working as intended when it got removed right? But apparently, there were suddenly too many ogres, so that had to be lowered.. I know this question have been asked A LOT over the past couple of weeks, but do you actually test your patches or your game? And not just from a High end game view, but also a mid game? Because it sure as hell doesn't feel like it.

I've spent something like 25-40 euro on this game.. And so far i've been happy to.. But the past couple of weeks has pissed me off.. Make your game playable for people who dont want to spend 10 hours a day tweaking their builds, with every little stupid idea you get to put into a patch.. And if you seriously removed the squire damage, to get more people to buy Series EV (which, to be frank, it seems a lot like that's the reason as of now) then I lost all respect for you as a company, just as I have lost it for EA for all the crap they've pulled with their customers..

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The problem here is that this (the very end game gear) might be the sole area where people who state "NM should be Hard" may be correct. Unfortunately, what percentage of the community does this effect? 5-10% at most?

Moraggo (and Moraggo Mix) are all I have left that I haven't completed. Misty mix I can usually win if I'm playing with a competent friend, but I'm not sure anymore with this patch. That's about as end game as it gets, and I still think that's retarded. "Hard" and "Impossible" are two different things.

I fully acknowledge that this patch ruined the game for many players who haven't progressed to the point I have. The point I'm making is that the patch had serious negative effects for players of all levels.

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Right i dont mind the nerf of squire towers but when you reach wave 12 mysty, 10 ogres total 6 at one defence when playing solo. Ogres are bugging over defences not only that monk slow auruo does not work when u repair towers its sooooo slow. I am very disappointed with this as ive invested over 800 hours just to fail time after time, i buy every thing u put on to steam store i wont be buying anything else.

oh yeah my pet can dps more than my towers my stats are 2.5k 2.9k 1.5k 2k that is all my tower stats epic fail dudes.

ROLL ON DIABLO 3

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