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Tower Spec vs DPS spec active characters


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For the sake of this thread. I'll start off by defining a few terms to try and clear up a few things.
Hero spec/DPS Spec - focuses on Hero Dmg, and upping Hero abilities
Tower spec - focuses on the tower stats according to what type of towers they use.


If either of them needs more HP or resists to survive, then they can put some points in there. The main point being, one mostly cares about hero dmg and hero abilities, the other mostly cares about tower stats.


So, it seems that currently the way the game is right now, it seems to promote only having 1 builder in a group of 4. Generally most builds seem to revolve around an apprentice or squire tower focus with a few auras and traps as support (especially in nightmare). Because of this, you basically never have more than one builder as an active character. This is also compounded by the fact that the active character bonus only affects damage and does nothing to utility traps/auras.

I would really like to see having more than 1 tower spec character out during combat phase be just as viable and effective as having 1 tower spec character and 3 hero spec characters.


Also Xen0nex has started another thread devoted to personal DU so if you specifically want to talk about this idea you can head over there. If you have other ideas on the general goal of making more than 1 tower spec character viable for the combat phase. You can still suggest them here or the merits of the goal in general.


Fixes.
I'll list a few changes that might help and if others have ideas, they can list some too. Exact numbers are something that can be tweaked for balance. So just general ideas.

I think this would work the best, but might be the hardest to implement and would change the game the most.
1. Personal DU - Have every character that joins a map bring with them some personal defense units in addition to the shared DU already on the map. As you put down towers you use up your personal defense units first and then bleed over into the shared pool. The personal DU would probably need to be linked to the active character in some fashion so they don't just bring out a tower spec character to put down their personal DU and then switch to hero spec character. The personal DU would also be something only the character joining could put down. The main builder would not have access to them. The shared DU for the map could stay the same as it is now and not affect how solo is done. Or it could be re-balanced according to how the developers test it.

If you're tower speced, your personal DU are more powerful and would make up for your loss of hero DPS. If you're Hero/DPS spec, you're personally more powerful, but your personal DU would not do very much. Either way both can put down a few towers/defenses.



These would be quicker solutions, but don't change as much.
2. Increasing the active character bonus or implementing a non-active penalty. This could be scaled with more people joining the map. So for 2 people it could be something like 50% and three it would be higher and so forth.

This would have an issue with probably not actually promoting more active builders most of the time. It would probably just promote focusing more on just squire or just apprentice towers

3. Making the active character bonus apply to things besides dmg and increasing it. This could also be scaled with more people joining the map.

This would probably only promote having 2 builders, and might actually force having 2 builders. So not really more options.

EDIT
I did some editing to this first post to focus the goals of this thread a bit more. I think the issue of survivability was getting mixed up in the goals when it is more about giving tower focused characters the ability to contribute as much as hero focused characters.

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I get what you're saying and see your logic, but at the same time I think you're missing the point of the game. The game is about teamwork in defending the crystal. You WANT some people to be strong in some aspects than others. You don't want everyone to be the same, otherwise what's the point of having tower over dps. And why does it matter who's tower kills the monster, as long as it's dead?

Also, what your proposing is just a 'super class'. It would be like in World of Warcraft, having a healer do as much dps as a hunter, or w/e variation you want to say.

Example. If I'm the builder, I don't want other builders with me standing around doing nothing. I'd rather have 3 ranger/huntress's running around killing/repairing things. Those three people are basically mobile towers. And since I'm the tower spec, I run around and make sure things are being repaired and helping areas that need help. And if an area goes down, I need to be ready to build back up, so I don't want to be distracted running and gunning monsters down.

Plus people have their version of building and my version might not match and there's wasted DU's, etc... But if someone has a stronger char than mine, I'll ask them to build where I'd normally put stuff.

Bottom line, you need variation of strength/weakness to get people to work as a team or everyone would be a 'super class' and you'd blow through everything and the game would get boring even quicker than it is now.

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I get what you're saying and see your logic, but at the same time I think you're missing the point of the game. The game is about teamwork in defending the crystal. You WANT some people to be strong in some aspects than others. You don't want everyone to be the same, otherwise what's the point of having tower over dps. And why does it matter who's tower kills the monster, as long as it's dead?

Also, what your proposing is just a 'super class'. It would be like in World of Warcraft, having a healer do as much dps as a hunter, or w/e variation you want to say.

Example. If I'm the builder, I don't want other builders with me standing around doing nothing. I'd rather have 3 ranger/huntress's running around killing/repairing things. Those three people are basically mobile towers. And since I'm the tower spec, I run around and make sure things are being repaired and helping areas that need help. And if an area goes down, I need to be ready to build back up, so I don't want to be distracted running and gunning monsters down.

Plus people have their version of building and my version might not match and there's wasted DU's, etc... But if someone has a stronger char than mine, I'll ask them to build where I'd normally put stuff.

Bottom line, you need variation of strength/weakness to get people to work as a team or everyone would be a 'super class' and you'd blow through everything and the game would get boring even quicker than it is now.


Quoted for truth and justice.

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Tbh i dont even see the logic behind this post^^

It will always be either an apprentice or a squire setup for towers. Traps and auras are only additions to that, they are effective aoe / have utility towers dont have but they are horrible at dealing with ogres.

So... except for the unlikley case that there are 2 apprentices with the exact same stats in a game, why would the apprentice with the worse stats build anything ?

That doesnt make any sense, sorry.

As for your suggested "fixes", apart from what i already mentioned above, number one would completly remove the ability to power level in any meaningful way and that is a very very bad thing imho. Also the personal DU of a dps speced hero would completly go to waste, have you ever tried placing an aura in nm with 300 tower range? (hint: its ridicously small)
Also theres the little fact that dps specs have to invest in resistances and hero health eavily on their armor; in your model however the builder would also need resistances and life to not be one shoted in nm all the time if he tries to repair something. Assuming you need 30 upgrades to max resistances (23%) on every piece of armor thats 120 points that dont go into towerdamage already. With the setbonus, its over 150. That is a huge loss and this doesnt even factor in the points you have to set aside for health yet.

As for number 2, we already have a penalty so ???? The only way this would work is implementing a penalty for active players on the map that havent build anything and thats completly retarded considering that you can just put an appwall somewhere and be done with it.

Number 3 has the problem to what would you apply it besides damage? HP? Doesnt matter, people already use seperate apprentices with maxed out hp gear to build walls. Range? Could matter in some instances but not realy helpful either. Attackspeed? Seeing that this has largely diminishing returns, the buff would actually get weaker the better your gear gets.

Afaik you are trying to fix something that isn't broken, and trust me, this game has enough issues that are broken as hell and need fixing first

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Builders (with resists) are already MUCH more effective than dps characters on Nightmare difficulty. That 33% bonus to tower stats is considerably more damage than a dps character can bring in nightmare. In addition, if you sacrifice a couple hundred tower stats you can get full resists and decent hero stats on your builder to be able to survive and help out your towers.

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I get what you're saying and see your logic, but at the same time I think you're missing the point of the game. The game is about teamwork in defending the crystal. You WANT some people to be strong in some aspects than others. You don't want everyone to be the same, otherwise what's the point of having tower over dps. And why does it matter who's tower kills the monster, as long as it's dead?

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at all. I'm not asking for monks to have the same things as squires or huntresses to have the same defenses as apprentices or anything like that. I am asking for there to be a reason to have more than 1 person geared for defenses on a map. I know the game is about teamwork (when you play with a team). Currently though, the team is limited to 0-1 active tower characters, and everyone else is forced to be dps to be effective.


Also, what your proposing is just a 'super class'. It would be like in World of Warcraft, having a healer do as much dps as a hunter, or w/e variation you want to say.

I'm not sure how you think I'm asking for a super class. I'm asking for both tower and dps specs to be viable as active characters. In the example of personal DU it isn't a matter of whose towers kill stuff, its a matter of allowing a tower character to be useful even when there is another tower character. The dps character would do more dmg themselves, but their personal DU defenses would do less. The tower character would do less personal dps, but they make up for it because they have some personal DU defenses.


Example. If I'm the builder, I don't want other builders with me standing around doing nothing. I'd rather have 3 ranger/huntress's running around killing/repairing things.

This is my point. Of course if you're the builder you don't want other builders standing around. There is no reason to have more builders because they don't do any good. What I'm asking for is changes to make it so having 2-3 or even 4 builders as active characters can actually be viable. I don't want to take away the 1 builder 3 dpser formula, but I would just like more than 1 builder to be also viable.


Plus people have their version of building and my version might not match and there's wasted DU's, etc... But if someone has a stronger char than mine, I'll ask them to build where I'd normally put stuff.

As you mentioned this is a game with teamwork. So, you can work out placement and wasted DU's as a team.


Bottom line, you need variation of strength/weakness to get people to work as a team or everyone would be a 'super class' and you'd blow through everything and the game would get boring even quicker than it is now.

I'm asking for more variation. Right now the most efficient way to do a map is to shelve all your builders after the first few waves and pull out characters that can actually survive and do dps. At the moment this is pretty much only squires, countesses, and barbarians due to various reasons (hp, survivability, hardcore).

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1 builder is good enough for me. 2 viable builders at the same time i'd be okay with, but any more than that and i think the game will end up being too stale.

however, i do agree with one thing, and that is the fact that the builder bonus should be more than just 33% extra damage. by this i don't mean increasing that number higher, rather have more effects in play. right now, that bonus has no affect for monks except for electric aura, so its imbalanced for the fact that not all classes will benefit from this bonus.

i think the bonus should take a cue from the guardians. builders should get a bonus to damage, range, rate of fire, and hp boost.


I'm asking for more variation. Right now the most efficient way to do a map is to shelve all your builders after the first few waves and pull out characters that can actually survive and do dps. At the moment this is pretty much only squires, countesses, and barbarians due to various reasons (hp, survivability, hardcore).

i think many of these problems would be better off solved fixing survival mode instead. campaign mode builders don't suffer from this problem as greatly. many people criticize survival mode enough already for numerous reasons that it should be the first thing to be changed.

in other words, it sounds a little bit absurd to try to balance the characters and defenses around a mode that in itself is very imbalanced, broken, boring, etc.

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I'm asking for more variation. Right now the most efficient way to do a map is to shelve all your builders after the first few waves and pull out characters that can actually survive and do dps. At the moment this is pretty much only squires, countesses, and barbarians due to various reasons (hp, survivability, hardcore).


You can't say definitively that it's the most efficient way to do a map. I have great resists on all of my builders and if I choose to keep them out, while others DPS, then I can survive with no issues. In later waves on Misty survival, even great melee DPS start to see trouble. Builders are fine right now, no reason to change them.

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one last note: hybrid builds exist for a reason.

for combat phase usefulness, it must always go: hero build > hybrid build > tower build.

if you're going to buff tower builds, the hierarchy must still remain the same.

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So... except for the unlikley case that there are 2 apprentices with the exact same stats in a game, why would the apprentice with the worse stats build anything ?

What you state here is obvious to anyone that has played the game for a good bit of time. There is not a reason currently for an apprentice with worse stats to build anything. What I am asking for is for there to actually be a reason. I also only merely listed a few ideas. There are probably other ways to accomplish this.



As for your suggested "fixes", apart from what i already mentioned above, number one would completly remove the ability to power level in any meaningful way and that is a very very bad thing imho.

I'm pretty sure your making some big assumptions here. Are you talking about power leveling your own characters? Nothing I suggested would even have to effect playing solo. All the changes could scale when more people join the map. Or are you talking about power leveling others? Cause giving additional DU's to people that join the map wouldn't affect your ability to power level them.



Also the personal DU of a dps speced hero would completly go to waste, have you ever tried placing an aura in nm with 300 tower range? (hint: its ridicously small)

I don't think they would be 100% wasted, but they would be less effective than a defense/tower geared character. That is sort of the point. Both would contribute in different ways. Maybe people aren't getting this. But when I was talking about personal DU. I was generally thinking about it as an addition to the maps general DU. As an example.(the number can certainly change for balance reason). In misty mire there is 140 DU? So with one person you get 140 DU. When someone else joins. You still get 140 DU( or 120 DU and 20 personal DU), but the new person would have their own 20 DU (rough number). So with 2 people you would have 160 DU, but 20 only the first player can put down, and 20 only the 2nd player.




Builders (with resists) are already MUCH more effective than dps characters on Nightmare difficulty. That 33% bonus to tower stats is considerably more damage than a dps character can bring in nightmare. In addition, if you sacrifice a couple hundred tower stats you can get full resists and decent hero stats on your builder to be able to survive and help out your towers.

You can't say definitively that it's the most efficient way to do a map. I have great resists on all of my builders and if I choose to keep them out, while others DPS, then I can survive with no issues. Builders are fine right now, no reason to change them.

You can debate having 1 builder out vs not (basically is the 33% something you can overcome when you don't have to upgrade resists/weapon dmg). The exact answer would probably be based on gear levels. The higher gear levels you're spending less percentage of upgrades on resists while the lower gear levels you might be spending 3/4's of your upgrades on resists. However, I don't think there are hardly any situations where more than 1 builder active is more efficient with the current status quo.


1 builder is good enough for me. 2 viable builders at the same time i'd be okay with, but any more than that and i think the game will end up being too stale.

I'm not trying to take away the 1 builder, 3 dpers formula. I'd just like more combinations to be viable in terms of spec. If they really did implement personal DU they would have to mess with the numbers to see where they would be close to balanced (maybe 10 DU or 20 DU or 30 DU). Numbers like that can be changed pretty easily.



one last note: hybrid builds exist for a reason.

for combat phase usefulness, it must always go: hero build > hybrid build > tower build.

if you're going to buff tower builds, the hierarchy must still remain the same.

I probably shouldn't have mixed this proposal up with the survivability problems that people also have. Can you define hybrid build. And can you state why this hierarchy must remain the same?

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I probably shouldn't have mixed this proposal up with the survivability problems that people also have. Can you define hybrid build. And can you state why this hierarchy must remain the same?

hybrid build is generally a focus on tower stats and high resists, with a good dps weapon and enough hp to survive combat phase.

the heirarchy must remain so that all 3 types of builds will remain useful. tower builds will always have a use in this game. they dominate the build phase. hero builds can never invade on their territory. however, tower builds already do have uses in combat phase, and they definitely do have the potential to invade on a hero build's territory. if they start to dominate the combat phase, then hero builds will no longer have a use in this game.

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You can debate having 1 builder out vs not (basically is the 33% something you can overcome when you don't have to upgrade resists/weapon dmg). The exact answer would probably be based on gear levels. The higher gear levels you're spending less percentage of upgrades on resists while the lower gear levels you might be spending 3/4's of your upgrades on resists. However, I don't think there are hardly any situations where more than 1 builder active is more efficient with the current status quo.


I can definitely agree with that. Gear definitely needs to have enough upgrades for good NM resists and I believe 1 builder and 3 DPS creates a perfect harmony.

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hybrid build is generally a focus on tower stats and high resists, with a good dps weapon and enough hp to survive combat phase.

the heirarchy must remain so that all 3 types of builds will remain useful. tower builds will always have a use in this game. they dominate the build phase. hero builds can never invade on their territory. however, tower builds already do have uses in combat phase, and they definitely do have the potential to invade on a hero build's territory. if they start to dominate the combat phase, then hero builds will no longer have a use in this game.


I wouldn't even consider that a hybrid build. With my tower characters, I tend to have a nice DPS weapon and high resists. It doesn't matter if their Hero Damage stat is high, the weapon is plenty if it's good enough. In my opinion, a character with even stats all around, which I consider a hybrid, is just gimping themselves on Hero or Tower stats. I understand hybrid builds are somewhat viable for solo, but when it comes to harder NM content, I don't believe it's that viable.

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What you state here is obvious to anyone that has played the game for a good bit of time. There is not a reason currently for an apprentice with worse stats to build anything. What I am asking for is for there to actually be a reason. I also only merely listed a few ideas. There are probably other ways to accomplish this.


Ok, more basic level, why the heck should there be a reason for the player with the worse stats to build anything. Doesnt make sense to me.

I don't think they would be 100% wasted, but they would be less effective than a defense/tower geared character. That is sort of the point. Both would contribute in different ways. Maybe people aren't getting this. But when I was talking about personal DU. I was generally thinking about it as an addition to the maps general DU. As an example.(the number can certainly change for balance reason). In misty mire there is 140 DU? So with one person you get 140 DU. When someone else joins. You still get 140 DU( or 120 DU and 20 personal DU), but the new person would have their own 20 DU (rough number). So with 2 people you would have 160 DU, but 20 only the first player can put down, and 20 only the 2nd player.


I was working under the assumption that map DU stays the same because the other possibility would send game balance flying into the sun with near lightspeed.
Simply adding DU for additional players is...a horrible, horrible idea and will achieve nothing except sending balance into orbit. They just switch to their towerbuilder, pop up another 4 FB with their 20 DU and switch back to DPS because hey why wouldnt they. Youd have to implement a system to attach DU to a specific hero for this to work and if he switches his stuff gets deconstructed. And this in turn will totally ruin single player because no more mixed builds.

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Ok, more basic level, why the heck should there be a reason for the player with the worse stats to build anything. Doesnt make sense to me.

I'm not sure if I would use the word should. I would like there to be a reason because I would like the option to have more than 1 builder per map be viable. I think it would give the game more variation and would make the game more flexible and fun. You could still use 1 builder and 3 dpers, or you could use 2 builders and 2 dpers or 3 and 1.



I was working under the assumption that map DU stays the same because the other possibility would send game balance flying into the sun with near lightspeed.

What type of balance are you talking about? Balance between the classes? I think personal DU would actually help class balance because many characters are not currently well suited as DPS spec. Or are you talking about how difficult a map would be? Obviously just flat out adding more DU to a map would make it easier assuming everything stays the same (number of mobs, types of mobs, HP of mobs etc). Flat out adding more people to a map also makes it easier too if everything stays the same. Currently there is a system to add more mobs and slightly different types of mobs when more people join. This could be adjusted to account for extra DU.


They just switch to their towerbuilder, pop up another 4 FB with their 20 DU and switch back to DPS because hey why wouldnt they. Youd have to implement a system to attach DU to a specific hero for this to work and if he switches his stuff gets deconstructed. And this in turn will totally ruin single player because no more mixed builds.

Attaching DU to a specific hero would be one way. Or you could change it so the non active character's towers do less dmg and have it scale with more people on the map. Say with 2 people. non active character towers do 50% of normal with 3 people they do 75% and with 4 people they don't do anything (just example numbers, can be tweaked).

You could keep it the same for solo play at 33% and not change solo play in any way at all.


Balance is something that can easily be adjusted. Number of mobs and HP scaling and things like that are actually easy to tweak. They are already making huge changes to the balance at the moment. I don't know why you think something like what I'm suggesting would be done in a vacuum without changing or tweaking other things.

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I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at all. I'm not asking for monks to have the same things as squires or huntresses to have the same defenses as apprentices or anything like that. I am asking for there to be a reason to have more than 1 person geared for defenses on a map. I know the game is about teamwork (when you play with a team). Currently though, the team is limited to 0-1 active tower characters, and everyone else is forced to be dps to be effective.


But that's the whole point! You can have whatever you want! Why make a game that's so cookie cutter. It's like going out and buying the latest video game and buying the cheat guide with it. There's many other variations that you can do, you can have 2 builders and 2 DPS, you can have a Builder, 2 dps, and a tower booster, etc... It's whatever you want create that gets you through the game. It's like the towers builds in the guide section. I can grab any one of those and it should work 'okay' but it's not geared for MY character...


I'm not sure how you think I'm asking for a super class. I'm asking for both tower and dps specs to be viable as active characters. In the example of personal DU it isn't a matter of whose towers kill stuff, its a matter of allowing a tower character to be useful even when there is another tower character. The dps character would do more dmg themselves, but their personal DU defenses would do less. The tower character would do less personal dps, but they make up for it because they have some personal DU defenses.


Basically with this game you're either a builder or dps... (That's why I'm trying to make a monk that's all about buffing and repairing to be different). By you saying you want both specs to active, that means their towers need to be up to par and so must their DPS, which to this game is a 'super class'. And then the rest of your statement is already what the game is. Dps does more dps if they spec into it and tower chars are tower chars if they spec into it. Not to metion our pets can even be buffs according to you spec.


This is my point. Of course if you're the builder you don't want other builders standing around. There is no reason to have more builders because they don't do any good. What I'm asking for is changes to make it so having 2-3 or even 4 builders as active characters can actually be viable. I don't want to take away the 1 builder 3 dpser formula, but I would just like more than 1 builder to be also viable.


You have the option of creating the make up of your group, You could have 2 builders if you want. Say if you're a squire and your friend is a monk, and his is far better than you monk, he could keep his monk out for the extra bonus dmg.

I'm asking for more variation. Right now the most efficient way to do a map is to shelve all your builders after the first few waves and pull out characters that can actually survive and do dps. At the moment this is pretty much only squires, countesses, and barbarians due to various reasons (hp, survivability, hardcore).


But you're missing the whole point of SURVIVAL...You do what it takes to survive... I think the game difficult and variation is fine as is since not alot of people are able to get through all levels. And how is adding personal DU's "More variation"... All you do is lay down something, upgrade it, and then you are back to were you were before... It doesn't change anything about the final outcome.

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But that's the whole point! You can have whatever you want! Why make a game that's so cookie cutter. It's like going out and buying the latest video game and buying the cheat guide with it. There's many other variations that you can do, you can have 2 builders and 2 DPS, you can have a Builder, 2 dps, and a tower booster, etc... It's whatever you want create that gets you through the game. It's like the towers builds in the guide section. I can grab any one of those and it should work 'okay' but it's not geared for MY character...

Are you agreeing with more or disagreeing? I'm not really sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm asking for less cookie cutter. When you have a 4 person group right now, having more than 1 builder is generally hurting your group. Since builds generally revolve around apprentice or squire towers with traps/auras as support. Your builder is an apprentice or a squire. The only reason you keep them out at all is the 33% active character boost. Otherwise you'd just put them away and bring out a dps speced character. I'm merely asking for more than 1 tower specced player to be useful in larger groups.



Basically with this game you're either a builder or dps... (That's why I'm trying to make a monk that's all about buffing and repairing to be different). By you saying you want both specs to active, that means their towers need to be up to par and so must their DPS, which to this game is a 'super class'.

Their towers don't need to be up to par if they are dps geared and their dps doesn't need to be up to par if they are tower geared.



You have the option of creating the make up of your group, You could have 2 builders if you want. Say if you're a squire and your friend is a monk, and his is far better than you monk, he could keep his monk out for the extra bonus dmg.

You could, but it probably wouldn't be very effective. I'd like there to be a situation where you're both tower geared and it is effective to have both of you use towers and be active. As it is right now, that's not effective. You'd be much better off just keeping the squire and only using a few non-dmging auras for the monk then switching to a dps geared character instead of using the monk.


But you're missing the whole point of SURVIVAL...You do what it takes to survive... I think the game difficult and variation is fine as is since not alot of people are able to get through all levels. And how is adding personal DU's "More variation"... All you do is lay down something, upgrade it, and then you are back to were you were before... It doesn't change anything about the final outcome.

I wasn't specifically refering to survival mode. I was talking about normal campaign maps too.
Allowing more specs to be viable as active characters is more variation. Adding personal DU's is merely one idea to accomplish the previous goal of more specs being viable. Personal DU would allow more players to contribute to the build phase.

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Are you agreeing with more or disagreeing? I'm not really sure if you understand what I'm saying. I'm asking for less cookie cutter. When you have a 4 person group right now, having more than 1 builder is generally hurting your group. Since builds generally revolve around apprentice or squire towers with traps/auras as support. Your builder is an apprentice or a squire. The only reason you keep them out at all is the 33% active character boost. Otherwise you'd just put them away and bring out a dps speced character. I'm merely asking for more than 1 tower specced player to be useful in larger groups.



Their towers don't need to be up to par if they are dps geared and their dps doesn't need to be up to par if they are tower geared.



You could, but it probably wouldn't be very effective. I'd like there to be a situation where you're both tower geared and it is effective to have both of you use towers and be active. As it is right now, that's not effective. You'd be much better off just keeping the squire and only using a few non-dmging auras for the monk then switching to a dps geared character instead of using the monk.


I wasn't specifically refering to survival mode. I was talking about normal campaign maps too.
Allowing more specs to be viable as active characters is more variation. Adding personal DU's is merely one idea to accomplish the previous goal of more specs being viable. Personal DU would allow more players to contribute to the build phase.



Bottom line... you want tower builds to be more active during the battles... the only way for that to happen is if their DPS is up... SO that means both their tower and dps has to be high enough which creates that "Super Class".... And Personal DU means jack I could care less if I put a trap down or person X puts the trap down... As long as we get through the map, that's all that ultimately matters.

If you want variation in game play changing stats, or number of DUs or w/e changes the difficulty but not the experience. They need to had more interactive maps, have objectives, change how the monsters come out, add a new class that is a healer/repairer since all classes are relatively the same.

I think you have the right idea of how to progress the game, you're just going about it the wrong way.

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Bottom line... you want tower builds to be more active during the battles... the only way for that to happen is if their DPS is up... SO that means both their tower and dps has to be high enough which creates that "Super Class".... And Personal DU means jack I could care less if I put a trap down or person X puts the trap down... As long as we get through the map, that's all that ultimately matters.

If you want variation in game play changing stats, or number of DUs or w/e changes the difficulty but not the experience. They need to had more interactive maps, have objectives, change how the monsters come out, add a new class that is a healer/repairer since all classes are relatively the same.

I think you have the right idea of how to progress the game, you're just going about it the wrong way.


Did you read about what I said with how personal DU would work? Maybe I should go back and edit my first post since it was quite a few posts into the thread where I elaborated on it. You said you could care less (I think you mean couldn't) if you put down a trap or someone else does. But with the kind of personal DU I'm talking about, someone else couldn't. If you didn't put down that trap nobody would. So, since you're the only person that can put down the trap (because you haven't used all your personal DU yet). It would be wasteful not to put it down whether you're dps geared or tower geared. If you're tower geared, it will do more dmg, but you give up a bit of personal dmg. If you are dps geared it just wouldn't do as much, but your personal dmg would be higher. Either way you'd want to lay down the trap.

I do want tower builds to be more active during battles, increasing their dps is not the only way. I would also like people to use more of their class regardless of spec. Personal DU would help in both regards. I have suggested methods that wouldn't require their personal dps to go up. There are probably many other ways too. It doesn't have to be what you are trying to paint it as.


I would love more interactive maps with varied objectives, That's mostly the challenges at the moment, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. As far as a healer/repairer, Is the apprentice a repairer? That's what his first ability does doesn't? Not sure about healer, but I'd say the monk is probably the healer, since he has a healing aura as a tower defense, and a healing active skill.

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I wouldn't even consider that a hybrid build. With my tower characters, I tend to have a nice DPS weapon and high resists. It doesn't matter if their Hero Damage stat is high, the weapon is plenty if it's good enough. In my opinion, a character with even stats all around, which I consider a hybrid, is just gimping themselves on Hero or Tower stats. I understand hybrid builds are somewhat viable for solo, but when it comes to harder NM content, I don't believe it's that viable.

by spending points into weapon damage and resists, you sacrifice points ("gimping" as you call it) from tower stats. your stats are more balanced or "all around," as you put it. imo you are playing a hybrid build, even if it sways more into the tower direction it is still a hybrid.

a (pure) tower build is one that dedicates all his resources into pimping out his tower stats.



you can think of it like a scale:

tower build < < < hybrid < < < still hybrid > > > yup still hybrid > > > hero build

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by spending points into weapon damage and resists, you sacrifice points ("gimping" as you call it) from tower stats. your stats are more balanced or "all around," as you put it. imo you are playing a hybrid build, even if it sways more into the tower direction it is still a hybrid.

a (pure) tower build is one that dedicates all his resources into pimping out his tower stats.



you can think of it like a scale:

tower build < < < hybrid < < < still hybrid > > > yup still hybrid > > > hero build


I sacrificed a little over 200 stats to get good weapon damage. That's not much at all. I believe all tower builders should have a nice DPS weapon. Even if you don't kill many mobs, it provides good personal protection.

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Reform your idea and come up with specific examples of what you want 'variation' in. Cause right now, I don't think you even know what you want.

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1) Personal DU is an awful idea. Yes I read your elaboration. It's still awful.
a) Some people only have only one character, and that one character is pew pew spec. Right now, these casual friends are welcome to join me on a survival run. Because they've bought a genie, have a couple of guards, and can meaningfully contribute. If the map is changed/balanced such that it requires some use of their DU to clear effectively, then they can't play, because they don't bring tower spec to the build. Which makes it even more cookie cutter.
b) People will design strong builds around the additional DU, which means you'll need an exact set of characters who can build to the spec that's most efficient. If I have (say) 20 personal DU for each character, then those DU will need to be something very specific. If we need 60 of those DU spent on more app towers, it's no use having them play a monk. Which makes it more cookie cutter, not less.

2) Sure. I've thought this for a while. More penalty for non-actives would be awesome. But then all the soloers would be screwed. And we'd never hear the end of it :P (please don't scream, that was deliberately infammatory). However, this completely undermines what you're saying about cookie cutter too. Because if every tower or trap is gimped with non-active builders, you have 3 builders hiding in the middle of the map, hoping not to be one-shotted (yes, even with full resists), and one squire or countess running around healing everything. And you just killed the barbarian in endgame.

3) See 2.

I really don't get what your problem is. I have plenty of builds which require 2 builders active. Never seen a mage/squire hybrid build? You should try it. It also means you need both characters active to maintain high damage. Or keeping a trap spec hunter active to get the 33% boost to trap damage? Monks, due to the nature of the auras, are the only ones who will never really see the combat phase, but you know what? You can take an aura/rdb spec initiate with a decent nosferatu and a genie, then use remote defense boost on the other 3 builders, since by wave 20+ on survival, any DPS you bring to the table is largely negligible compared to what your towers are doing, especially with guardian boosts.
Let the squire builder (countess) use CtA to heal anything outside the gates, and the hunter with invis anything inside the gates.
There's your multi builders active in combat.

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I'm fairly certain I've addressed most of this before. Guess I'll just address them again.

1) Personal DU is an awful idea. Yes I read your elaboration. It's still awful.
a) Some people only have only one character, and that one character is pew pew spec. Right now, these casual friends are welcome to join me on a survival run. Because they've bought a genie, have a couple of guards, and can meaningfully contribute. If the map is changed/balanced such that it requires some use of their DU to clear effectively, then they can't play, because they don't bring tower spec to the build. Which makes it even more cookie cutter.

These casual friends that are "pew pew" spec should still be welcomed. The amount of dps/dmg you get out of your personal DU should be similar to the difference in dmg between someone focusing on towers vs someone focusing on dps. I don't see why you think someone who is "pew pew" spec couldn't play all of a sudden. If you think there is no way that a dps character could make up for 20 DU, then lower it to 10 or raise personal dps. As I said before these changes aren't meant to be made without other adjustments. Also, why do you think its so horrible that everyone can actually use their whole class? Personal DU would allow DPS characters to use some defenses, They could actually use their whole class.




b) People will design strong builds around the additional DU, which means you'll need an exact set of characters who can build to the spec that's most efficient. If I have (say) 20 personal DU for each character, then those DU will need to be something very specific. If we need 60 of those DU spent on more app towers, it's no use having them play a monk. Which makes it more cookie cutter, not less.

Why would you need 60 more DU of app towers? Also, this would only matter if all of the other 100+ DU were already spent on App towers. If you make a build with app towers and nothing but, and when more people join you think the only use for the additional DU should be app towers, and this is effective, then maybe app towers should be toned down.
People will design builds around specific class makeups and specs, but that doesn't mean others can't design different builds. The goal would be that more builds are viable.


2) Sure. I've thought this for a while. More penalty for non-actives would be awesome. But then all the soloers would be screwed. And we'd never hear the end of it :P (please don't scream, that was deliberately infammatory).

I've addressed this more than once already, You could scale the penalty for the number of players on the map. You could completely not touch what it is currently for solo.


However, this completely undermines what you're saying about cookie cutter too. Because if every tower or trap is gimped with non-active builders, you have 3 builders hiding in the middle of the map, hoping not to be one-shotted (yes, even with full resists), and one squire or countess running around healing everything. And you just killed the barbarian in endgame.

If builders get 1 shot even with full resists, I think this is a problem with the game and should be addressed. Also, why is the barbarian killed in end game? He's a dps spec character. There should be a spot for him.



I really don't get what your problem is. I have plenty of builds which require 2 builders active. Never seen a mage/squire hybrid build? You should try it. It also means you need both characters active to maintain high damage. Or keeping a trap spec hunter active to get the 33% boost to trap damage? Monks, due to the nature of the auras, are the only ones who will never really see the combat phase, but you know what? You can take an aura/rdb spec initiate with a decent nosferatu and a genie, then use remote defense boost on the other 3 builders, since by wave 20+ on survival, any DPS you bring to the table is largely negligible compared to what your towers are doing, especially with guardian boosts.
Let the squire builder (countess) use CtA to heal anything outside the gates, and the hunter with invis anything inside the gates.
There's your multi builders active in combat.

I have used mage/squire hybrid builds before. On insane we used to use a lot of squire stuff for their walls. Then we found out you could just save the DU on the squire walls, put down more mage barricades and towers, use a dps squire and be quite a bit more effective. On nightmare we started off using squire/mage builds. Then we found out you could just replace a few of the mage towers with more squire towers and switch the mage over to a something useful and it would work way better.

In your builds with 2 active builders do you really need both active? Could you just replace a few mage towers with squire towers and be fine? Is there something you really really need that extra 33% for out of both sets of towers? Some HP mark that allows you to 1 shot vs 2 shot something? Do you use 2 active builders in the majority of your builds or just a select few?

And just because personal DPS is negligible on waves 20+ survival (I assume you mean nightmare) doesn't mean it has to be. They could boost personal DPS in nightmare.

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