A How-To Guide on how to fix the President's Day map

First off: If you're one of the minority who thinks the President's Day map is fine as is then this is not the thread for you. This is a thread for constructive criticism on how to improve this map. And while we're at it, on the same token this is not the thread for single-minded negativity about the map. I think we all had enough of that last night. We have this map now, yes it's crap, but let's deal with it and fix it.

Second off: If you're a person who thinks this map is fine because it is free, do us all a favor and leave these forums entirely. Make absolutely no mistake: this map is a product produced by Trendy with the end goal of making money. We, the active players, were given the map for free partially out of gratitude but also to seed the community with copies of the map -- these holiday maps are designed to be difficult multiplayer maps and if they were not given away there would be no reason for future players to buy them as they would have nobody to play with on them. It's designed to be a long term payoff and not a quick buck, but I imagine they're already turning quite a profit off of the Halloween map, mainly because that map is actually good.



On to the content. In an ideal world, I would say scrap the map entirely and start from the ground up. Unfortunately, that isn't a realistic possibility. So what we have is a terrible map that nobody wants to play which is soon going to be abandoned and never touched again and will be a complete waste of time and man-hours for Trendy to have developed. So let's fix it. Here's what I would do:

- To start, a statement. This game doesn't do PvP well at all. Not only are there gigantic class imbalances it also has systemic issues such as the host always having an advantage due to never lagging and being able to kick anyone who beats them. And then there's the fact that it just isn't fun. The game isn't designed around it. Battle Royale, being a map that focuses entirely on PvP, only amplifies these issues and shines spotlights upon them.

- To fix this, I would shift the focus of the map from straight PvP to a PvPvE swarm mode. Change the score system from only granting points by killing players to granting small amounts of points from killing trash mobs, medium amounts for downing an ogre and large amounts from killing another player. Talking something like 1 from a normal mob (2 for DEWs, which should be present IMO), 5 for killing an ogre, and 10 for players. Increase mob spawn rate as well, obviously. Adjust total score count upwards to maintain match length and have players lose 10 points each death. Also, increase map size -- 50% increase to length and width of the arena should help make things feel less claustrophobic. The idea is to still keep the map as a competition but to channel that competition into something more suited to the game.

- Secondly, the boss. No more one hit killing. Have the boss's direct hits deal half the target's max health and have fire tick for 1/3rd per second. This one-shot nonsense has to go, especially once you realize how laggy the game is in multiplayer. He'll still hit like an absolute truck, but no more lagging into an attack which on your screen you dodged and suddenly being set behind a ton of hard work. I decided on a portion of the target's health and not a fixed amount to both act as a balancing factor between gear levels and between classes. Any damage number that would threaten an Apprentice would be absolutely laughed at by a Countess. So let's be fair and make it even for both.

- Additionally, no more invincibility. Turn the boss into a threat which can - and should - be dealt with. Give him a lot of health and when he dies, if one single person did more than half his total health in damage have it display "[character name] killed the referee! The crowd goes wild!" and give that character a windfall of points, a huge temporary damage/movement/health regen buff and have the skeletons in the crowd swarm the stage crawling up from the sides providing easy points for everyone but especially the newly buffed character. The idea here is to incentivize killing the boss while still making it possible to deny others the bonus without making everything all about the last hit. A minute after he goes down, another referee takes his place with an announcement letting everyone know. I would also have an announcement for the referee going down without triggering the 'kill' event -- say if his health is depleted but nobody did 50% of his HP in damage it announces "The referee retreats..." and he just flies away for a minute, coming back with full health. Keep the death animation something special.

- As for balance issues, Trendy, if you ever want any class that isn't a Barbarian, Countess or Squire to be viable in PvP you HAVE to remove the range penalty. It is absolutely positively unnecessary in every single way. The melee classes do not need to be catered to. They already have gap closers -- the Squire has Blood Rage, the Countess has Joust and the Barbarian has Battle Leap. You don't need to butcher ranged classes range just to make these overpowered characters even more overpowered. My Squire's sword almost has the same reach as my Adept's staff. It's stupid. I can see why you did this on Assault but it is absolutely not necessary in PvP. Players have brains; they can jump and dodge and bob and weave. (And lag.)

- Next, rewards. Let me be frank here: sitting through an hour (or more) of this nonsense map and then getting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as a reward is terrible game design. This map absolutely needs consolation prizes. It positively cannot go on without it. If you ask me, everything but the costume should be awarded to everyone who participated. Even if they took last place. If that isn't okay, then make the pet the victor's award. Give participants the costume and the class weapon. And while we're at it, add a class weapon for Apprentices and Huntresses. Even if it's just a junk one with a reused skin. Give the Huntress an AR-15 (reskinned Blasticus) and the Apprentice a flagpole staff or something. Anything. (That staff should shoot red white and blue stars... That would be cool.) The items don't need to be great, especially considering that this map has very little chance for failure once started (aside from failure due to boredom, but hopefully we're working on that,) but there does need to be SOME kind of reward. This would also do a lot to combat the epidemic of 'kicking hosts' we're seeing. Hosts would be much more gracious losers if they actually got something for losing.

- Last but not least, a minor complaint but a meaningful one. Have players spawn outside the ring in an area where they are invulnerable, can't deal damage, and mobs can't path to them. Players then jump into the ring to join the fight. More thematic, more fair, helps against spawn camping, and gives the players the opportunity to pick where to jump into the action at. And to state the obvious don't let people leave the ring once entered; you need to die to get back into the invulnerable area.



That's what I'd do. To wrap this up I want to say that this map cannot be fixed just be tweaking numbers. The whole concept of it is rotten to the core. It needs a revamp if you ever want the community respect it and if you ever want it to pay for it's design time.

Took me like 20 maybe 25 min to do NM on this. Also, it is fine how it is now with patch B. For the Referee you just gotta be quick on your toes. It's supposed to be difficult. And spawning out of the ring would just give you more space and not be a Battle Royale, the point of the confined ring is what gives it's difficulty and have to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Ya I just said that. Anyways, most people that are arguing about this challenge now are just the non-geared or people who just don't like just straight up PvP in general. Yes WE ALL know PvP isn't perfect but I believe that is what they made this challenge for, to get this kind of criticism for future actual pvp maps. This is why things like this is for free. To set up for future better content and the fact you know you DON'T have to play it if you don't like it. No achievements for this and I'm sure you can eventually buy the items in an AFK shop. Costumes, just do it on easy with a friend. Takes like 5 min. That's my case on it.

Took me like 20 maybe 25 min to do NM on this. Also, it is fine how it is now with patch B. For the Referee you just gotta be quick on your toes. It's supposed to be difficult. And spawning out of the ring would just give you more space and not be a Battle Royale, the point of the confined ring is what gives it's difficulty and have to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Ya I just said that. Anyways, most people that are arguing about this challenge now are just the non-geared or people who just don't like just straight up PvP in general. Yes WE ALL know PvP isn't perfect but I believe that is what they made this challenge for, to get this kind of criticism for future actual pvp maps. This is why things like this is for free. To set up for future better content and the fact you know you DON'T have to play it if you don't like it. No achievements for this and I'm sure you can eventually buy the items in an AFK shop. Costumes, just do it on easy with a friend. Takes like 5 min. That's my case on it.

So let me get this straight: You agree that this map is not fun, but you think it's fine as is?

This isn't the thread for you. Point number one. A map this not fun is not okay to be included in the game.

I actually enjoy most of the PvP maps. Thread for me or not, my statement is valid.

I actually enjoy most of the PvP maps. Thread for me or not, my statement is valid.

First off: If you're one of the minority who thinks the President's Day map is fine as is then this is not the thread for you. This is a thread for constructive criticism on how to improve this map.

Just leave.

I read that, and again. That is my constructive criticism, not my fault you can't accept it. And I did agree PvP still needs to be fine tuned. Trendy was talking in the PvP thread end of last year about making pre-made classes so the gear thing would be fair, but don't know what happened to that. If they ever get back to that, it would fix most of the PvP issues people have.

Right how about the Thanksgiving event ? the Christmas event? the Valentine event? those all aren't that easy too don't hear anyone complain about those for being hard or stuff like that if you don't like it don't play it. and i think SnakeChips is right about the DLC meant for feedback purpose, else why free? they put time and effort to make something. And last thing the thing you want to change I agree with some but not all especially the if its not fun don't include it in the game comment is irrelevant. if you don't like it don't play it other people will. So that is just your bias.

I read that, and again. That is my constructive criticism, not my fault you can't accept it. And I did agree PvP still needs to be fine tuned. Trendy was talking in the PvP thread end of last year about making pre-made classes so the gear thing would be fair, but don't know what happened to that. If they ever get back to that, it would fix most of the PvP issues people have.

No sir, you are performing the literal definition of trolling.

This thread is for how to improve this event. Coming in to just say "it's fine leave it be" even after being asked not to is straight out pure trolling.

If you disagree with me then THIS THREAD ISN'T FOR YOU MYAAHH

Barring that, not bad thoughts. I'd like to see them do a complete overhaul for PvP mechanics before they tweak individual maps, though.

No sir, you are performing the literal definition of trolling.

This thread is for how to improve this event. Coming in to just say "it's fine leave it be" even after being asked not to is straight out pure trolling.

He does that a lot.. I found that putting him on ignore helps reduce the troll-spam.

My suggestion for the event...

Double the size of the ring so as to make it a bit easier to move about. Mobility adds complexity to PVP and will help with the issue of the Demon trapping a player into one corner of the map repeatedly.

No sir, you are performing the literal definition of trolling.

This thread is for how to improve this event. Coming in to just say "it's fine leave it be" even after being asked not to is straight out pure trolling.

I don't troll sorry, now back on topic. I never said leave it be. Don't put words into my mouth. I did say it is fine the way it is. But like everything in this world, things can be changed for the better. Your changes are way over the top and would never happen. Likely changes MAY be the boss killable, but he would have a huge and I mean HUGE amount of health but would probably give off no points because it is a PvP map. Your ideas are descent, but for this particular type of pvp event most of them just don't work for it.

The idea behind President's Day DLC is fundamentally flawed. As it only rewards the winner of the match, most of the games are "fixed" to let one person win and people take turns. How stupid is that? Is that what Trendy had in mind? I got sick of letting my heros die on purpose... it gives you a bad feeling. No need for fixing... just don't do it. The games are either fixed or the host kicks who ever is beating them... that's awesome isn't it?

These are quite excellent ideas, which really allow for a lot more flexibility on the map for different classes / playstyles. Please fix the Sky O' Love map next :kobold:

No sir, you are performing the literal definition of trolling.

This thread is for how to improve this event. Coming in to just say "it's fine leave it be" even after being asked not to is straight out pure trolling.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make him a troll.

He's offering his opinion on the map, which is last I checked what this thread is about. Saying "the map is fine as is" is actually offering an opinion on how to improve it- specifically by not doing anything at all to it.

Forums are for discussion, you can't just shut out 1 side of the argument "because I said so".

OT: I do like a lot of these suggestions. As a little change to the last one, I don't think an outside arena is necessary, just make the players invisible to other players while spawning, as to prevent other players from knowing where they are. Also some spawn immunity to the demon attacks would be rather nice.

The OP created the thread for suggestions on how to fix/improve the President's Day event as such only suggestions or discussion on how to improve said suggestions is relevant.

Posting repeatedly comments like "It's fine, leave it be", IS trolling as the poster in question knows full well that such comments will NOT be welcome in a thread of this nature and can only engender a negative reaction from the people wanting to improve the event.

If someone wants to state that the event is "fine" and invite others to agree with him, then he is free to create his own thread rather than to post trollish comments in this one.

(Queue the trollish reply by said troll in 3...2...1...)

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make him a troll.

He's offering his opinion on the map, which is last I checked what this thread is about. Saying "the map is fine as is" is actually offering an opinion on how to improve it- specifically by not doing anything at all to it.

Forums are for discussion, you can't just shut out 1 side of the argument "because I said so".

OT: I do like a lot of these suggestions. As a little change to the last one, I don't think an outside arena is necessary, just make the players invisible to other players while spawning, as to prevent other players from knowing where they are. Also some spawn immunity to the demon attacks would be rather nice.

Glad to know there's a few other people on this board who understand things and are civil. And I agree with that invisible idea. I tend to find them and kill them seconds before they get to do anything or react.

Also to those who think I'm "trolling" if I really have been this whole time, I believe the mods would have banned me by now for it. Oh wait, I'm still here.

Khift: "This game doesn't do PvP well at all."


Bingo. Hit the nail on the head.

This is a Tower Defense Game.

Personally, i do not mind that there is PVP/Assault DLCs, but when Trendy releases more PVP/Assault content than tower defense content, that is what makes me mad.

My plea to you Trendy, please get back on track and stay true to the "Spirit" of DD. It is a Tower Defense Game!!

Personally, i do not mind that there is PVP/Assault DLCs, but when Trendy releases more PVP/Assault content than tower defense content, that is what makes me mad.

Really? More PvP/Assualt then other content. Let's see, 5 PvP maps now, and 4 Assualts. So 9 total. And there is tons of other challenges + campaign. So I'm pretty sure that there is more tower defense maps then those.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make him a troll.

It isn't about whether they disagree with me personally it is about whether they disagree with the premise of the thread. Putting forward an antagonistic opinion that is neither wanted nor on topic is trolling pure and simple.

To put it into another context, let's imagine someone makes a thread about ice cream and people's favorite ice cream flavors. Next someone shows up and says "ICE CREAM SUCKS DON'T EAT IT." You'd call them a troll, and rightfully so. That's all SnakeChips has done here.

It isn't about whether they disagree with me personally it is about whether they disagree with the premise of the thread. Putting forward an antagonistic opinion that is neither wanted nor on topic is trolling pure and simple.

To put it into another context, let's imagine someone makes a thread about ice cream and people's favorite ice cream flavors. Next someone shows up and says "ICE CREAM SUCKS DON'T EAT IT." You'd call them a troll, and rightfully so. That's all SnakeChips has done here.

And that whole post was on topic? Can't commit to your own thread. I already stated my opinion and even mention that yes PvP does need fixing still, but this challenge in particular doesn't really need that much more tweaking to it and is fine as is. So technically, I was on topic to the thread. And for the ice cream analogy, the ice cream is fine but can always been improved on, but it's still tastes fine the way it is.

The OP created the thread for suggestions on how to fix/improve the President's Day event as such only suggestions or discussion on how to improve said suggestions is relevant.

Posting repeatedly comments like "It's fine, leave it be", IS trolling as the poster in question knows full well that such comments will NOT be welcome in a thread of this nature and can only engender a negative reaction from the people wanting to improve the event.

If someone wants to state that the event is "fine" and invite others to agree with him, then he is free to create his own thread rather than to post trollish comments in this one.

(Queue the trollish reply by said troll in 3...2...1...)

His replies of "its fine as it is" are relevant. This thread is about possible ways to improve the map, and if it is a person's opinion that the map is fine as it is, it is actually a form of constructive criticism- I guess you just look at it differently than I do.

Also- your last sentence actually makes you a troll, as you are posting inflammatory content that will engender a negative response in another user.

His replies of "its fine as it is" are relevant. This thread is about possible ways to improve the map, and if it is a person's opinion that the map is fine as it is, it is actually a form of constructive criticism- I guess you just look at it differently than I do.

You can't improve a map by saying it's fine.

That's the topic. Improving the map. Even if it IS fine, even if you think it's fine, it can still be improved. Everything can. You can always add, like, hookers or something.

Saying that it's fine doesn't progress the conversation and therefore isn't on topic. All it does is lead to off topic conversations the likes of which we have a dozen other threads dealing with.

Also- your last sentence actually makes you a troll, as you are posting inflammatory content that will engender a negative response in another user.

Not at all. I edited that into my comment after the troll in question's follow-up post to mine just to make it even clearer as to what he was doing.

Check the time stamp on my edit versus his post...

As to "it's fine" being relevant to a discussion asking for suggestions to IMPROVE the event.. Specifically against the wishes of the topic starter..

Yes, you are looking at this the wrong way.

Also, it is fine how it is now with patch B.

So this map is 100% perfect the way it is, there is nothing that could possibly make it better? You'll play this map every day because you enjoy it that much? Really?

You can't come in to a thread that's trying to be constructive and say "it's fine the way it is" and then backpedal with "everything can always be better" just so you sound like less of a troll. Stirring up **** with the intent of being contrary, without providing any real meat to your argument is the very definition of being a troll.

There's more to PvP than being able to kill other people. Guild Wars has a couple maps where killing other people is only a small part of it: there's also defending points, protecting NPCs, and running resources. These maps are by far more fun, at least to me, than the stereotypical bloodbath type PvP arenas that are also available. It's a hybrid PvP/PvE type minigame, which is what the Pres map kinda tries to be and fails miserably at.

Many of the suggestions I've seen made (here, and in other threads) would have made a more interesting experience than just "kill 'em all".

I agree with nearly all of Khift's suggestions concerning PVP and the map, even though I do think that with the latest 7.18b patch the Battle Royale Map is definitely managable - is it fun? Not really, and I think that is what Khift is trying to say here.

The only suggestion I have, is the climbing back into the ring - there needs to be a timer, preferably 2 second before you are thrown back into the ring - there might be some people that will just stay outside the ring for ****s and giggles.

Also, I am perfectly fine with the Demon doing one hit kills, except for the fire that snakes along the floor - that, I defer to Khift's suggestion.

Last night, I must sheepishly say, I plugged in my controller and did it for all four characters in an hour. I could not be bothered playing it properly and finding people to do it with - because even though it takes around 20 minutes or so, it is still a pain, especially when you lose and you get nothing. Again, Khift's reward system I think is also a good idea. I will most likely never revisit this map again unless I have friends wanting to do it and I will gladly die to give them the rewards.

Ultimately, as many of us have pointed out - the major flaw with PvP is the unbalance between classes. I do think, quite sincerely that the entire PvP has to be redesigned -perhaps make the stats separate from the Tower defense game - e.g. like how Guild Wars used to do it ( I don't know if they still do) or Infinity Blade for the iPhone - the PvP element is sorta separate - you invest skills purely for PvP.