Jump to content

Usability of mage's DPS with high charge rate staffs


Recommended Posts

Just a little request.

Ive picked up a +124 charge staff, but the problem is its so hard to actually use its DPS. If you hover over the left click for any more than a millisecond it charges, and then has the recoil animation. This means you can only attack maybe twice a second instead of 5x.

Compared to my DPS ranger, my DPS apprentice has so much more potential but its just not usable.
My DPS ranger I left click and do damage. My DPS apprentice its like the barbarian prepatch, if I use it then my hand will drop off, and thats my 'special' hand.

The right click seems pretty useless as an apprentice, surely we can swap that or have some alt-fire function to make it more usable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I suggested to remove the full charged Animation if your over 80 Charge Speed and had about 60% Yes in 2 weeks Voting.
A lot of ppl who dont know how to use App or use Makros denied the request, because they said its fairly easy. But I totally agree with you. My suggestion here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It just doesnt make sense! I'm not professing to be God, but I do know I can click on and off a mouse pretty fast, and I can't even sustain 2 seconds of actual dps fire, nevermind a 3 minute round....

Oh well, might as well go back to squire [eg hold down left click and let player auto attack and move to enimies], that requires much more skill, honest...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CHarge speed could at least increase the speed of the actual charge animation. I found this to be rather frustrating too. Even the slightest tap is a partially charged shot (good) but any more than that slight tap is a full charge (bad).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
you mean, hold down left click, then click & hold right click =p


That seems to work but the DPS is really low compared to doing it manually 0_o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
my advice, get a gaming mouse, and create a macro for it.

Set button to repeat the following action using toggle/holding:
- Mouse Left Down
- Wait 50ms
- Mouse Left Up
- Wait 50ms

As much as I enough playing game legibly, I rather avoid getting carpal tunnel. I got acupuncture treatment when my fingers were tingling with numbness, like it was going to explode not so long ago but i believe that was due to having too much pressure on one of my nerves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you have a staff with 120+ charge speed, even the current autofire will net you a decent damage because it comes with half charges. My 125 charge speed staff deals 2.5m dps on the tavern dummy (with autofire), and 3.1m if I click manually. So you see, it's not too big of a difference.

I suggested to remove the full charged Animation if your over 80 Charge Speed and had about 60% Yes in 2 weeks Voting.
A lot of ppl who dont know how to use App or use Makros denied the request, because they said its fairly easy.


Now that's no way to categorize the people who disagree with your point, dear - I, for example, fall into neither of those. If they have made a mindless and unreasonable response, then you can say that, but there are lots of detailed posts with reasons as to why they disagree. App is one of the classes where if you want to DPS, you need to learn as you go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah.. because 600,000 damage is a miniscule ammount.. added with the 2 seconds tour stuck in recoil while enemies and spiders are in your face because theres no charge cap or reduction in recoil animation.

simply put.. any charge ammount over 60 begins to REALLY hurt your DPS... because it causes you to start having a really varied and irregular DPS ontop of inconsistant "misses" with such short timing that causes you to be thrown into the kickback even at a fast click. 100+ forget about it.. even in attempts to just NORMAL click.. i 1 in 5 shots tend to accidentally fire off a fully charged shot. not good when you have 5 spiders in your face and an ogre on your defences.

EASILY one of the stats where the higher it does the farther DOWN your DPS gets.. it needs either a cap.. or a tweak like the turrets get when they hit that animation cap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
my advice, get a gaming mouse, and create a macro for it.

Set button to repeat the following action using toggle/holding:
- Mouse Left Down
- Wait 50ms
- Mouse Left Up
- Wait 50ms

As much as I enough playing game legibly, I rather avoid getting carpal tunnel. I got acupuncture treatment when my fingers were tingling with numbness, like it was going to explode not so long ago but i believe that was due to having too much pressure on one of my nerves.


I have a gaming mouse, in fact I have many.

MX518
G5 2007 Edition
Razer Deathadder
Razer Imperator

Non of these have macro's because no one should have to rely on hardware to solve the problem of the software.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah.. because 600,000 damage is a miniscule ammount.. added with the 2 seconds tour stuck in recoil while enemies and spiders are in your face because theres no charge cap or reduction in recoil animation.

simply put.. any charge ammount over 60 begins to REALLY hurt your DPS... because it causes you to start having a really varied and irregular DPS ontop of inconsistant "misses" with such short timing that causes you to be thrown into the kickback even at a fast click. 100+ forget about it.. even in attempts to just NORMAL click.. i 1 in 5 shots tend to accidentally fire off a fully charged shot. not good when you have 5 spiders in your face and an ogre on your defences.

EASILY one of the stats where the higher it does the farther DOWN your DPS gets.. it needs either a cap.. or a tweak like the turrets get when they hit that animation cap.


My 3.1m dps is done with manual clicking without full charges so no animation recoil, just thought I'd clear that up; I'm just comparing between the autofire and manual spamming. I choose to autofire half the time because it's more convenient, and the damage difference after reduction in NM really makes little difference.

I agree that the current charge mechanic could use a bit of improvement, or just removed altogether. For example, auto-fire does constant damage like huntresses (but with a reasonable damage multiplier so app dps would not outshine all the other classes), and full charges used more as an ability to deal burst damage (because really, mana bomb is currently more or less useless due to its low damage scaling and high cool down).

As for the alt fire (right click), I use it as a replacement for mana bomb. It deals more damage, and has no cooldown other than the animation, plus you get to use it in midair while jumping :). They're great for situations where you think you're going to get mobbed by spiders or other enemies: right click, jump away, right click again. Or used to knock enemies into the line of sight of your towers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah the auto fire is consistant.. but only 1/3rd your potential DPS. which hurts us when we have 3+ 2 million health ogres hammering the same defense line.

sadly a statistical HARD CAP is the ONLY way to fix it without further breaking it. likly around 60-70

problem with removing the kick back animation would me we could consistantly fire nonstop FULLY charged AoE shots without penalty.. which was unintended.. and really cause the mage to be OP broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you have a staff with 120+ charge speed, even the current autofire will net you a decent damage because it comes with half charges. My 125 charge speed staff deals 2.5m dps on the tavern dummy (with autofire), and 3.1m if I click manually. So you see, it's not too big of a difference.

Thats just because you cant fire manually at ALL you get at least 50% more dps with good charges and if you are really good you get 100% more dmg with perfect charges.

And stop with this crap about Splash dmg he has ALWAYS Splash dmg as soon as its not Autofire. So Removing the Full charge knockback would only make it easier to NOT fail but not give any DPS advantage, compared to someone who charges nearly perfect!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think its funny herp derps actually think its acceptable to be FORCED to resort to auto fire, which cuts your dps, just because its near impossible and impractical to manually do it at that point.

Really? You that stupid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont get it... more charge boosts your DPS, its just harder to use effectively. Even if charge didnt have an animation and we could max charge everytime. Apps wouldnt be OP at all. They might do the most dmg in that case (I'm not so sure about that myself... pretty hard to beat a squire) but they have the lowest hp of them all. Doing 1M NM dps wont help all that much when you have 5 30M hp ogres on the same lane, when 1 spider/kobold/ogre ball 1 hit kills you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree ! however, it helps while charging the secondary attack which will allow you to efficiently keep creeps of you if you become surrounded. As a builder i find i don't need to dps the hell out of everything Only for genie mana :) staff damage out put is good when upgraded to or near potential. if your a dps apprentice then your better off with a lower charge rate staff but as stated you know this already just my two cents :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thats just because you cant fire manually at ALL you get at least 50% more dps with good charges and if you are really good you get 100% more dmg with perfect charges.

And stop with this crap about Splash dmg he has ALWAYS Splash dmg as soon as its not Autofire. So Removing the Full charge knockback would only make it easier to NOT fail but not give any DPS advantage, compared to someone who charges nearly perfect!


I'm saying nothing about his splashing property because like you said, all charges carry AoE.
To make it clear to you why removing the animation while keeping the current damage modifier would break the balance of App DPS, take my DPS for example:

-My current best DPS is 3.1m, and with this my damage per shot ranges from 100k~170k. This is with manual clicking, not fully charging. Even this is difficult for me to achieve because I have a +125 charge speed staff. Autofire does almost constant 116~118k.
-My maximum damage per shot with a full charge is 230k.
-By removing the animation, I will be doing 230k per shot at the speed of non fully charged shots while dealing constant damage. I can guarantee you my DPS would increase by a huge amount.

So yeah, removing the animation would give me a great DPS advantage. I think the key point here is that the higher your charge speed, the more DPS you would get by removing the animation, since it's a lot easier to obtain a near perfect charge with a staff that has a low charge speed - so you can't just remove the animation without considering to what extent it will affect all charge speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just a little request.

Ive picked up a +124 charge staff, but the problem is its so hard to actually use its DPS. If you hover over the left click for any more than a millisecond it charges, and then has the recoil animation. This means you can only attack maybe twice a second instead of 5x.

Compared to my DPS ranger, my DPS apprentice has so much more potential but its just not usable.
My DPS ranger I left click and do damage. My DPS apprentice its like the barbarian prepatch, if I use it then my hand will drop off, and thats my 'special' hand.

The right click seems pretty useless as an apprentice, surely we can swap that or have some alt-fire function to make it more usable.


I agree, something needs to be done. We are the only class that can't maxmimize DPS by holding one or two buttons. Personally, I would just do a rework.
1. Standardize charge times
2. Either change the fully charged animation so it doesn't effect DPS or make a fully charged bolt infinitely superior to a partial charge bolt (like have it do 2-3 times more than a partial. We want to make it so that it is worth the lost time doing the animation and then some... more that is)
3. Perhaps change it so autofire has the highest DPS BUT charging is useful for going place to place or when you are weaving in and out a lot (nightmare ogres). Essentially, charge for selective burst and autofire for max general DPS

If no rework happens, I would do this:
1. Give us a little charge meter that we can see so we can maximize DPS more easily. Maybe make it so we edit the hold right and left click autofire to always charge to a certain point on the meter. Still more complicated than other classes but hey, it is better than what we got

I will note, I use a Trendy approved macro to handle the charge rate but you know, it is just annoying to do that. Especially if you forget to turn it off and then by mistake press Q to turn it on and then wonder why your mouse decided to click everything furiously. It works (and I remember to turn it off now) but it isn't ideal.

Basically, yeah. Please look into this Trendy. I am not sure what the ideal solution would be but it would be of great comfort to know you guys are working on it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Essentially, charge for selective burst and autofire for max general DPS


Agreed.

The charge meter would be a nice addition too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree on all accounts. The max DPS with high charge is extremely difficult.
I had suggested in the past to simply adjust the auto-fire to synch with the charge rate. Basically, the auto-fire (both mouse buttons) should give you the MAX DPS.

I'm not a good mouse clicker, so I been using a click macro. There are about three you can find on these forums. Because of my poor click skills, I can actually get about 30% more DPS. That is significant.

[EDIT:] Ceraph - I read your post fully ;) AGREEE!!! much better stated than my rambling above....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The funny thing is that auto-fire, despite being like 1/3rd the dps, can still do the full charge animation if there's even a slight amount of lag. Too many turrets firing at once? Good luck getting more than 2 shots chained together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dunno, the macro I use fires with great consistency.
I'm not saying PERFECT, just great.
It does skip during lag, but on average I get a steady 2.6m DPS.

In order to get that consistent shot you do have to adjust the macro firing rate on intense boards. EG. on UMF2 i had to change the rate of fire to avoid the skipping (full charge).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...