Jump to content

Step by step instuctions on how to fix Dungeon Defenders (includes wipe)


Recommended Posts

These are my step by step instructions on how to fix DD. These instructions may not be feasible due to cost and time but I see it as a solution. At the very least this could be a template for DD2.

1) The first step in any problem solving is admitting you have a problem. Hackers, usd shops, balancing, economy ect.

2) Hire a handful of GMs that only patrol the games and shops section for people selling for real money. They ban on the spot. No warnings. No hand holding. No mercy.

3) Allow all players to choose 20 items. These items are checked for hacking. These items are kept and all other items are WIPED. Players submitting hacked items here are not punished as hacked items have become so common ppl can obtain without knowing. All information is changed to be stored server side at trendy to prevent hacking.

4) Test balance changes in a new area available to all players. This beta area will provide feedback on future changes before they go into effect. Random drawings award players very rarely in this area with vanity items like a M and M pet or more commonly mana.

5) The economy is horrible because of hackers giving away mana and all values of mana are too high and so too much mana is in system. Do all these.
A) Eliminate the soft mana cap or at the very least double it and allow up to 2b mana trades.
B) Get rid of mana trade bug and shop afk selling still while at 2b for items over 147m.
C) MOST IMPORTANT. Reduce all values of mana on items by a factor of 1000 but upping costs reduce only by a factor of 250. This makes upping items 4 times harder so items you actually max mean something and everyone isnt running around with max items. The last upgrade on an item counts as 25 times more powerful as normal. It also will let you choose a color or colors for item. Very cool.
D) Get tuff on hackers as stated above.

6) Disconnects ruin games and piss ppl off something fierce. Add a resume function for games that the HOST is disconnected. You cant do it any other way or games at w30 misty would reproduce. If the host makes a different game and disconnects then this overwrite the previous disconnected game.

7) Allow an invest 100m or invest all current mana upgrade function. I cant tell you how much time is wasted upping items. NOT GOOD.

8) Griefers are troublesome in taverns. They max the tavern DU or drop items next to dummy or advertise their usd shop or drop hacked items in your tavern and threaten you with being turned in as hacker. Give us a way to view and kick anyone in our tavern and then ban them permanently from our games in future = WE NEEDS A BAN PLAYER LIST.

These are my thoughts on this. I realized a wipe is drastic but its a drastic problem we face and so you need a drastic solution. What do the good non hacking non usd buying dungeon defender pplayers think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
these ideas are reasonable and will therefore never be used.

honestly it almost seems like in their "attempts" to fix the game, trendy refuses to use an idea if it comes from their player base (other than mass whining of course, in which case they over react with extreme nerfs/buffs)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The hacker problem isn't nearly as bad as people seem to think, a wipe isn't necessary and would cause a mass migration of people to different games, after all the time they would have wasted to get all of their items and mana, specifically for pets.

Disconnect issues do ruin games, but that resume function would likely be MUCH more difficult than you seem to understand. But I do see what you mean about it and I love the idea, looking into the way Halo has host migration when the host leaves might help out.

I have no opinion on hackers because I work for all my items. No AFK shops. I also don't host AFK shops. Too much possible greifing.

Beta Balance areas are what beta tests are for. I'd love to test stuff like WoW does on a test realm sort of thing, but I'd never do it myself, TBH.

Agreed on cash shops, I also think anyone making a shop on the main game list should be automatically forced into AFK shop. Dunno how they'd enforce it, it's just something I'd like.

And the whole "admitting you have a problem thing" would be awesome, the problem is internal NDAs. They prevent a lot of the communication with the public. Which sucks. I dunno what the NDA for Trendy is, but I imagine only a few people have the ability to mention the problems. Considering Trendy is reasonably small they probably don't have all that much money for a mass hiring of GMs.

And a ban player list would be nice too.

And last... All games have hackers, you can't stop them, only slow them. Trendy needs to do SOMETHING, yes. But for all we know, they are doing all they can internally. None of us actually know the structure in Trendy's offices, so we can't make assumptions like "You're not doing anything!"

Also, I did just notice your mention of DD2, and all of these, I agree, should be implemented within DD2, if it ever comes out, it's a bit early to think about sequels ATM. ;p

Also, I thank you for your very civil, thoughtful post. :D It's a nice change from the usual rage we see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You would essentially kill the game with this plan. They should be more vigilant when it comes to hackers and USD shops, but a wipe would send many already frustrated people to different games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
honestly it almost seems like in their "attempts" to fix the game, trendy refuses to use an idea if it comes from their player base (other than mass whining of course, in which case they over react with extreme nerfs/buffs)


This is patently untrue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
as long as they make survival better i wouldn't mind a wipe

but hell no im not grinding hours on same map just for chance of drops again
takes too long and it's too boring

500hrs+ isn't something to easily throw away, not for me at least

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why not just open a new more secure server, where everyone can start a new beginning. The current server will be untouched to keep those with a lot of playtime happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, lets focus on what everyone else is doing, instead of whats affecting our own gameplay enjoyment.
The reason there is a market in the first place is due to bad balancing issues, how about we focus on that instead of getting our knickers in a twist.

1. Invest the time and effort into creating a way of storing our characters and stuff serverside.
2. Balance for everyone, not just people wearing imaginary stuff.
3. I know Trendy has this elite dream of the game where less than 5% see all the content. That just doesnt work since almost every player progressed through the first part with relative ease, we're all stuck the same place, and you'll lose the remaining 95% if you persist.
4. Put in more functionality thats aimed at addressing disconnects, we're all sick and tired of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why not just open a new more secure server, where everyone can start a new beginning. The current server will be untouched to keep those with a lot of playtime happy.


Yes, just integrate it with Steam, do away with the Trendy backend ... make drops random on a per-player basis, make all drops "good" and level based ... it'd also reduce game latency by reducing net objects.


The reason there is a market in the first place is due to bad balancing issues, how about we focus on that instead of getting our knickers in a twist.


I thought markets sprung up where it became possible to trade or "market" things to other players ...

1. Invest the time and effort into creating a way of storing our characters and stuff serverside.


Heh? Combination of the Steam Cloud for Open and the Trendy backend already do this.

2. Balance for everyone, not just people wearing imaginary stuff.


Agreed.

3. I know Trendy has this elite dream of the game where less than 5% see all the content. That just doesnt work since almost every player progressed through the first part with relative ease, we're all stuck the same place, and you'll lose the remaining 95% if you persist.


Really not sure how to respond to that without coming off as rude.


4. Put in more functionality thats aimed at addressing disconnects, we're all sick and tired of it.


I'm amused by this, because from point 1 I thought you knew what I know about their infrastructure, but based on this, I'd say not. Most of the disconnect issues are Steam related anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed.
3. Stupid.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed if the list is only stored for your game to see.

Why is number 3 stupid? Item limits are stupid draconian garbage. Items should be checked for hacking no matter how many they are and ingame moderators are obligated to do so without causing extreme damage to the item system. Making the game save items on the main server could effectively strip everyone of their hard earned items and is impossible until the server is fixed where it won't go down 500 times a day.

3 is impossible in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, reconnect !! All MOBA games have it, even independent and cheap ones.


EVEN FREE GAMES CAN RECONNECT YOU. ( Rise of Immortals etc )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought markets sprung up where it became possible to trade or "market" things to other players ...

Supply and demand. There's a high demand for items to complete NM Survival modes, thus the market flourishes. It doesn't just flourish because its technically feasable. You can attack the supply, the sellers or you can balance the game to lessen the demand.


Heh? Combination of the Steam Cloud for Open and the Trendy backend already do this.


No it doesn't. The reason for the big influx of hacked items, is due item data being stored client side. People mod those items. MMO's etc. usually store this information serverside. This is why even small tinpot mmo's are infinitely more secure than DD.


Really not sure how to respond to that without coming off as rude.

Then don't. We've had a dev post here that his vision is that only 5% of the player base should be capable of completing the hardest content. Right now a significant portion of players are at the same progress level. Attempting to finish off the last waves of MM. These players needs to be engaged to keep interest. If all balancing is focused on denying them access to the remaining content, they are not engaged and will move on. Trendy needs to avoid big gaps like this in the progression of difficulty or alternative ways of providing replayability.

It doesn't help that people require Misty level loot to complete Misty. That means they don't get anything out of replaying the previous content over and over.



I'm amused by this, because from point 1 I thought you knew what I know about their infrastructure, but based on this, I'd say not. Most of the disconnect issues are Steam related anyway.


I don't see how adding functionality like safepoints is incompatible with their infrastructure. Maybe it's not technically feasable but thats another story all together. There's a lot of different ways of dealing with this too, let me just pull an example out of the air:
One map Alch NM HC Survival part 1. Need to get to wave 15, get rewarded a key. Key can be used to start the different map Alch NM HC Survival part 2 and gets consumed. Cumbersome? Yes, I am not a developer, feasable though.

IE make ways to protect the players from connection issues. Since such a hefty time investment is required, the players are vulnerable to these issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I endorse the idea by Drix to start a new secure server. In fact maybe expand it with 2 new servers. One we have now. Another TestRealm with no rules (go ahead and use hack item, instant level 74, god mode) and the secure new server everyone starts from scratch. Then they can just focus all the effort into preventing hacking in the new secure realm. Solid idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Supply and demand. There's a high demand for items to complete NM Survival modes, thus the market flourishes. It doesn't just flourish because its technically feasable. You can attack the supply, the sellers or you can balance the game to lessen the demand.


Markets spring up because they're technically feasible through the creation/release of 'marketable' items ... but yes, to end one, or to impact on it ,you attack one side of the equation. However, items exist before a 'market' comes into play, so my point was just that if you have the ability to give items, a market is technically feasible, and one exists, even if it's not utilised.

No it doesn't. The reason for the big influx of hacked items, is due item data being stored client side. People mod those items. MMO's etc. usually store this information serverside. This is why even small tinpot mmo's are infinitely more secure than DD.


Oh, right, you mean in RAM ... but the actual 'save' state of the tavern/characters/items is all on the TrendyNet backend. They'd have to change a fair amount of stuff around (everywhere) to do what you're proposing.

I don't see how adding functionality like safepoints is incompatible with their infrastructure. Maybe it's not technically feasable but thats another story all together.


It's really not another story. If their infrastructure doesn't support it, they can't just throw money at a solution because they're an indie group -- they don't have the option of throwing money at things as a solution. Save points would require a lot of what they have now to change -- there's no save functionality anywhere, it'd require implementing it, not to mention with multiple parties, timestamp locking, etc., to stop exploits. If the infrastructure doesn't support it, there's generally a reason, and I can think of several technical reasons (like storing massive arrays of items on the ground somewhere being a terrible idea).

There's a lot of different ways of dealing with this too, let me just pull an example out of the air:
One map Alch NM HC Survival part 1. Need to get to wave 15, get rewarded a key. Key can be used to start the different map Alch NM HC Survival part 2 and gets consumed. Cumbersome? Yes, I am not a developer, feasable though.


That's heavily exploitable unless they generate keys on the server, store them in a database, and award them to each and every participant, and only let games start/be joined by people with the right keys. So you're either hitting people who aren't exploiting by locking down games, or enabling people to exploit by not locking them down.

IE make ways to protect the players from connection issues. Since such a hefty time investment is required, the players are vulnerable to these issues.


I really don't see what people are complaining about with connection issues. Maybe I'm just lucky, but with my Australian internet connection I've only had a dozen or so drops since November last year, and most of them were Steam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How to fix the game:

Release Dungeon Defenders 2 with all data stored server side. Anyone with rudimentary knowledge of memory editing can easily edit anything they want in the game.

With the way the current data is handled the game cannot be fixed. The game can be balanced, yes, but as far as the economy and legitimacy of gear sold in player shops that simply cannot be fixed.

Wiping the servers will just make the problem worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...