HC NM MM Misty - I think you broke something trendy

My crew and I decided to try and do something different because of the Apprentice nerfs. So our resident tower app gave all his gear over to his squire and we tried a few setups till we found one that worked.

Previously (7.15) our best wave was 25. Now we were able to get to wave 30, with little difficulty. The only things still be a problem were the ogres for obvious reasons.

How you might ask? We asked the same thing as to why it was so easy around wave 18, so we decided to keep our eyes open. We found 2 things.

1) If there were no "wall turrets" in "aggro range" of the kobolds they did not light.

2) The archers do not attack the spinners or bouncing blockades.

We found this odd and thought maybe it was just this one map load. Then we did it again and again, changed hosts, and still found the same results.

Wait, you got to 30 with squire towers?

Not just squire towers, they were used for the lanes, we still used monk aura's and app towers for spiders/wyverns because they are significantly cheaper DU wise.

Layout?

I would like to know if the loot is better now in mix mode? or is it still the same as before and not really making a difference?.

I would like to see a layout too :) I've always had a DU problem with squire towers :/

Workin on the layout atm.

Mike and I are putting our heads together to see if we can remember the entire layout. Neither of us good at remembering it entirely cuz were just the "stupid dps'ers" as Ty puts it. lol

Trouble is Ty and Quarm dont play in the evenings/late night so we can't ask them till tomarrow.

Thought I'd bump this for the day crowd to see and get their input. Honestly I am skeptical - Not about that fact that you are beating it, but about your squire builders gear or someone in your party. And I guess I am a little skeptical about the amount of times you are running this. You said again and again and again so to me that atleast is 3 runs, you posted this 10 hours after 16a dropped, so even if you did run this to wave 30 3 times in 10 hours, wow. Also, shouldnt you remember the build after spending 10 hours on the map? Really, I want this post to be true, what was your build, and what was the stats of your builders?

@Fofner

I think what he ment was that



1) If there were no "wall turrets" in "aggro range" of the kobolds they did not light.

2) The archers do not attack the spinners or bouncing blockades.

this happend again and again, you don't have to get to 30 to verify it.

I'm fairly skeptical myself. How did nerfed app towers keep up with spiders/DEWs from wave 20 onward? How did spiders not render slice and dice towers useless? Were bowling ball turrets useful at all with their extremely narrow range?

If the only way this is possible is with four people, that's a flaw in of itself. I don't see how two people can keep up with everything with such less damage output.

Ah that makes more sense. They tested build several times but only played it to completion once. Ok so if what they say is true I still want to know the build and stats as a curious defender :D

If you run this with 4 people couldn't you move the slice and dice far enough forward in some lanes to block the lane completely with just one turret?

I'm frankly pretty skeptical myself. I've been messing around with squire towers since the patch and I've found a few things.

1. Bowling balls are nearly useless except for maybe one in the east lane.
2. Harpoons are very good ogre killers. Maybe even better than 7.15 fireball towers were.
3. Harpoons are terrible at everything other than ogre killing. Terrible spider killers, terrible at thinning out smaller mobs. Despite rotating faster, they still miss constantly. It's not uncommon for a harpoon battery to get distracted for 5-10 seconds firing at a spider they can't hit while an ogre smashes your walls.
4. S&D have no value that I can see.
5. I really like dropping bouncers under the central spider spawns, but they just don't do enough for their DU cost.
6. Spike blockades have no use. They are not wide enough to use fewer walls than you would apprentice walls. You still need 3 south, 3 east, 4 north, 1 west. That's just way too many DUs for walls.

So given that, I don't see how you can base a build around squire towers. You'd have to have a pretty different opinion of some of these towers than I do. Basically, we're now considering swapping some fireballs out for harpoons for some extra ogre killing power, but that's it. It's still going to be an apprentice based build.

I would love to be proved wrong here, but I'm going to remain skeptical until we see a layout and others have tried it.

I'm frankly pretty skeptical myself. I've been messing around with squire towers since the patch and I've found a few things.

1. Bowling balls are nearly useless except for maybe one in the east lane.
2. Harpoons are very good ogre killers. Maybe even better than 7.15 fireball towers were.
3. Harpoons are terrible at everything other than ogre killing. Terrible spider killers, terrible at thinning out smaller mobs. Despite rotating faster, they still miss constantly. It's not uncommon for a harpoon battery to get distracted for 5-10 seconds firing at a spider they can't hit while an ogre smashes your walls.
4. S&D have no value that I can see.
5. I really like dropping bouncers under the central spider spawns, but they just don't do enough for their DU cost.
6. Spike blockades have no use. They are not wide enough to use fewer walls than you would apprentice walls. You still need 3 south, 3 east, 4 north, 1 west. That's just way too many DUs for walls.

So given that, I don't see how you can base a build around squire towers. You'd have to have a pretty different opinion of some of these towers than I do. Basically, we're now considering swapping some fireballs out for harpoons for some extra ogre killing power, but that's it. It's still going to be an apprentice based build.

I would love to be proved wrong here, but I'm going to remain skeptical until we see a layout and others have tried it.

You just summed up everything I posted here after playing with squire for atleast 200 hours pre patch, and another 10 hours after patch. http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?44264-Constructive-Squire-Feedback

What was the difference after all of the adjustments? More health and damage, as said, but like you said, the actual USEFULNESS of the towers squire have is limited due to simply missing too much whether its not being able to attack through walls or just not tracking onto units. No matter WHAT they do, if they keep the mechanics of these towers AI the same, it really makes their towers way too hard to use.

You just summed up everything I posted here after playing with squire for atleast 200 hours pre patch, and another 10 hours after patch. http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?44264-Constructive-Squire-Feedback

What was the difference after all of the adjustments? More health and damage, as said, but like you said, the actual USEFULNESS of the towers squire have is limited due to simply missing too much whether its not being able to attack through walls or just not tracking onto units. No matter WHAT they do, if they keep the mechanics of these towers AI the same, it really makes their towers way too hard to use.

Yeah, exactly. Squire towers just don't have enough versatility to be used heavily. I've worked with them, and none of them can do enough to base a build around them. If only Trendy could make harpoons stop missing constantly, and tracking mobs that are behind walls and such, maybe you could make a squire build work. Sadly, that is still not the case, so I'm having a hard time believing this squire build took a wave 25 group to 30 "easily".

i wouldn't say easily but surely squire towers are effective enough.

with 2300 damage and the builder active and an app guardian.

Harpoons 230,000 damage
Bumpers 395,000 damage
Balls 217,000 damage
didn't bother with slice n dice or spikes

Ball guns can be used very effectively in south on the back side of the bridge.
Harpoons can be used in both south and west for birds. No snare needed. They beat serious as$ when lined up properly.
Bumpers only work for spiders if you can keep them app buffed. very annoying. not recommended but will 1shot spiders all the way to wave 30 if you keep an app buff on them.

in combo with the new stuff like Darkness Trap its really not so bad. Darkness traps make it so no mobs rush your blockades. Every single mob gets stuck in your snare.

I do agree that harpoons suck for spiders badly. don't bother trying. but that is by design and i think it needs to stay that way. The Harpoon is physical damage and hits like a truck. it needs a strong down side.

I made wave 12 with a squire build solo on misty. roughly 1000 in each tower stat. I used 4 mage blockades and 4 Magic missile towers to buffer my build, along with 5 slows and 1 healing aura. (Mage 1552/2001/1085/1692) That is solo, could easily waltz to wave 20 with duo. Because of the limited versatility you just need to build different than an app. I used squire dps during waves, not my builder.

[QUOTE=in combo with the new stuff like Darkness Trap its really not so bad. Darkness traps make it so no mobs rush your blockades. Every single mob gets stuck in your snare.[/QUOTE]

You may also use enrage auras to a similar effect, they even get ogres stuck if placed close to the spawns. I used this method when both my monk and App were under 1000 in each tower stat to farm to wave 20. Wave 20 takes a dump on you till much higher gear. Kenyan speed ogres real terror.

i wouldn't say easily but surely squire towers are effective enough.

with 2300 damage and the builder active and an app guardian.

Harpoons 230,000 damage
Bumpers 395,000 damage
Balls 217,000 damage
didn't bother with slice n dice or spikes

Ball guns can be used very effectively in south on the back side of the bridge.
Harpoons can be used in both south and west for birds. No snare needed. They beat serious as$ when lined up properly.
Bumpers only work for spiders if you can keep them app buffed. very annoying. not recommended but will 1shot spiders all the way to wave 30 if you keep an app buff on them.

in combo with the new stuff like Darkness Trap its really not so bad. Darkness traps make it so no mobs rush your blockades. Every single mob gets stuck in your snare.

I do agree that harpoons suck for spiders badly. don't bother trying. but that is by design and i think it needs to stay that way. The Harpoon is physical damage and hits like a truck. it needs a strong down side.

Is this theorizing or have you made a squire build work? Theorizing means nothing. The problem with squire towers is not and has never been the damage they do. It's their DU cost, and that they have loads of targeting issues on this map that make them a poor choice for anything but ogre killing. And darkness traps.... come on.

I'm not just holding to old beliefs that squires aren't viable here. I've been experimenting with them quite a bit, and nothing is terribly effective.

Please, post a cubicle ninja, and maybe a screenshot or two of a squire build taking you to wave 20+. I've seen quite a few people post on this forum over the past couple days that squire builds can be effective. I have yet to see a layout or any screen shots. One dude even claimed his first Misty survival attempt used only squire towers and took him to wave 25. Of course multiple people expressed their disbelief, and he gave no response. Seriously, I desperately want to be proved wrong. Is it really hard to put together a layout and link it? The OP really can't remember their layout after running it through to wave 30?

any chance for a link to your tower setup?

So what you are saying is...

If you have the gear that you got using the pre-nerf app builds... the squire might be more useful?

So what about all the people that don't have the gear they got with the pre-nerf app?

Seem like Trendy is leaving out the people that didn't get the gear pre-nerf...

Appreciate that Trendy.

Seems to be a trend. Snap.

Sorry for slow response to everything but I had to work a double shift today(friggin people calling out "sick" just cause roads are icy, bah).

Anyhoo,

1) We went to wave 30 once, then tried the different hosts, map builds, ect never going past wave 12.
1a) Spiders seemed to have no effect on the speed or damage output of the bumpers/s&d's

2) I have a memory disorder which is why I can't remember ****.

3) I didn't get to talk to Ty and Quarm today but; Mike did so here is the Layout

4) This works for US. 2 dps huntress (with new wep, yes we rushed the first assault map to get the weps before misty), 1 free range spider killer (dps monk; me) and active builder.

5) I'm not even going to post our stats because only thing out of your mouth's would be "hackers". We know our gear dropped legitimately, even so we don't play with others because on average we know our stats are very high. Quick example; the builders tower damage stat is 3023. (Can't wait to see the flame on that... /sigh)

5) I'm not even going to post our stats because only thing out of your mouth's would be "hackers". We know our gear dropped legitimately, even so we don't play with others because on average we know our stats are very high. Quick example; the builders tower damage stat is 3023. (Can't wait to see the flame on that... /sigh)

So basically, you guys have gear from wave 20+ anyway, which is the only reason that the build works.

Niceeee, guess I'm SoL for progressing any further.

5) I'm not even going to post our stats because only thing out of your mouth's would be "hackers". We know our gear dropped legitimately, even so we don't play with others because on average we know our stats are very high. Quick example; the builders tower damage stat is 3023. (Can't wait to see the flame on that... /sigh)

4 armor pieces, 468 cap on a single stat with bonus equals 1872
Weapon and pet are capped at 360
120 from level you get 2712

You are saying your builder's attack stat is supposedly more than 300 points over cap, and you're surprised people might suspect a hack?

By the way, this build is just about the silliest thing I've ever seen. 100% convinced now this was all a troll.

Edit: Take a look at what you wrote.

"1) We went to wave 30 once, then tried the different hosts, map builds, ect never going past wave 12.
1a) Spiders seemed to have no effect on the speed or damage output of the bumpers/s&d's"

Hate to break it to you, but I have little doubt one or multiple members of your team are using hacks.